6 ms·

> The regulations get updated, you aren't stuck on usb-c. Isn't there a chicken and egg problem there - no one will release products with new power interfaces,

> The regulations get updated, you aren't stuck on usb-c. Isn't there a chicken and egg problem there - no one will release products with new power interfaces, because they aren't releasable in Europe. I suppose such products might get released first in the US, but which large tech company if going to ignore the EU market when releasing important products?

Deukhoofd 3y ago
They can propose it to the USB Implementers Forum, standardize it as a new USB standard, and pass it to the EU.
- hartator 3y ago
  So, the EU is now in charge of deciding USB implementation?
  - Deukhoofd 3y ago
    No, the EU follows the industry standards. The industry standards for connectors are currently decided on by USB-IF, as almost the entire industry is a member of it. This means that when USB-IF releases a new standard, the EU will add it to the legislation.
epolanski 3y ago
> Isn't there a chicken and egg problem there - no one will release products with new power interfaces Yes, that's the point. Instead of anyone releasing products with new power interfaces the goal is to have industry-wide discussion on adopting new standards for everyone. I think it's reasonable and only a positive thing. If the industry will decide that USB-C isn't enough they will revise the standard.
- nonethewiser 3y ago
  > the goal is to have industry-wide discussion on adopting new standards for everyone. That’s not part of the regulation whatsoever > If the industry will decide that USB-C isn't enough they will revise the standard. But the industry doesn’t come together and pick a standard. The EU did. The closest industries came to picking a standard were freely choosing from many different formats that emerged. Imagine what it would take for the executives at Apple, Samsung, Motorola, etc. to come together and all agree on some new format that perhaps one of them developed. Now consider that the EU would still have to approve it. The conclusion made from that Herculean effort might just be null and void. Also consider that this sounds a lot like is collusion. These companies would never get as far as sitting down with each other and are even less likely with this EU regulation. What’s worse is this all completely subjugates new players, who may be more likely to innovate and which can’t abuse any existing user base, to the current phone market. They would never have a seat at the table.
  - hutzlibu 3y ago
    "Imagine what it would take for the executives at Apple, Samsung, Motorola, etc. to come together and all agree on some new format that perhaps one of them developed. Now consider that the EU would still have to approve it. The conclusion made from that Herculean effort might just be null and void." The EU does not really care on the standard and does not judge the technical decision - it cares about that there is one standard. So if Samsung, Apple and co come together for the next improved standard, then this is exactly the purpose of this legislation and no one has to fear if the EU is in a good mood afterwards.
    - PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
      Moreover, "Imagine what it would take for the executives at Apple, Samsung, Motorola, etc. to come together and all agree on some new format that perhaps one of them developed" is not actually hard to imagine, if you just drop Apple from the list. It is specifically Apple that has been the plays-badly-with-others child in this domain; the industry as a whole doesn't seem to have had much of a problem with the general idea.
    - 3y ago
- smugglerFlynn 3y ago
  I hear this point a lot from standardization-inclined folks, and strongly disagree. Standardization works to turn already existing solution into a widespread commodity. Standardization does not work efficiently to invent new better ways of doing things. The only viable driver for innovation is experimentation, not making new ‘better’ standards on paper inside some walled “industry” committee.
nonethewiser 3y ago
> Isn't there a chicken and egg problem there - no one will release products with new power interfaces, because they aren't releasable in Europe. Yes - seems plainly obvious to me. What’s more, the more countries to implement this makes it more unlikely to see different chargers. Maybe a better charger is released in the US. Now what if the US bans it? Are they going to innovate for the Brazilian market? The regulation scales very poorly.
summerlight 3y ago
Don't worry too much, USB has been steadily making a progress even if it's not expected to be mass adopted for several years. In fact, it was too much to the level that now it brought all the fragmentation headaches to everyone. If this regulation can slow them down and give vendors time to improve their implementation quality, it would be actually better for everyone.

Deukhoofd 3y ago

They can propose it to the USB Implementers Forum, standardize it as a new USB standard, and pass it to the EU.

hartator 3y ago
So, the EU is now in charge of deciding USB implementation?
- Deukhoofd 3y ago
  No, the EU follows the industry standards. The industry standards for connectors are currently decided on by USB-IF, as almost the entire industry is a member of it. This means that when USB-IF releases a new standard, the EU will add it to the legislation.

epolanski 3y ago

> Isn't there a chicken and egg problem there - no one will release products with new power interfaces Yes, that's the point. Instead of anyone releasing products with new power interfaces the goal is to have industry-wide discussion on adopting new standards for everyone. I think it's reasonable and only a positive thing. If the industry will decide that USB-C isn't enough they will revise the standard.

nonethewiser 3y ago
> the goal is to have industry-wide discussion on adopting new standards for everyone. That’s not part of the regulation whatsoever > If the industry will decide that USB-C isn't enough they will revise the standard. But the industry doesn’t come together and pick a standard. The EU did. The closest industries came to picking a standard were freely choosing from many different formats that emerged. Imagine what it would take for the executives at Apple, Samsung, Motorola, etc. to come together and all agree on some new format that perhaps one of them developed. Now consider that the EU would still have to approve it. The conclusion made from that Herculean effort might just be null and void. Also consider that this sounds a lot like is collusion. These companies would never get as far as sitting down with each other and are even less likely with this EU regulation. What’s worse is this all completely subjugates new players, who may be more likely to innovate and which can’t abuse any existing user base, to the current phone market. They would never have a seat at the table.
- hutzlibu 3y ago
  "Imagine what it would take for the executives at Apple, Samsung, Motorola, etc. to come together and all agree on some new format that perhaps one of them developed. Now consider that the EU would still have to approve it. The conclusion made from that Herculean effort might just be null and void." The EU does not really care on the standard and does not judge the technical decision - it cares about that there is one standard. So if Samsung, Apple and co come together for the next improved standard, then this is exactly the purpose of this legislation and no one has to fear if the EU is in a good mood afterwards.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
    Moreover, "Imagine what it would take for the executives at Apple, Samsung, Motorola, etc. to come together and all agree on some new format that perhaps one of them developed" is not actually hard to imagine, if you just drop Apple from the list. It is specifically Apple that has been the plays-badly-with-others child in this domain; the industry as a whole doesn't seem to have had much of a problem with the general idea.
  - 3y ago
smugglerFlynn 3y ago
I hear this point a lot from standardization-inclined folks, and strongly disagree. Standardization works to turn already existing solution into a widespread commodity. Standardization does not work efficiently to invent new better ways of doing things. The only viable driver for innovation is experimentation, not making new ‘better’ standards on paper inside some walled “industry” committee.

nonethewiser 3y ago

> Isn't there a chicken and egg problem there - no one will release products with new power interfaces, because they aren't releasable in Europe. Yes - seems plainly obvious to me. What’s more, the more countries to implement this makes it more unlikely to see different chargers. Maybe a better charger is released in the US. Now what if the US bans it? Are they going to innovate for the Brazilian market? The regulation scales very poorly.

summerlight 3y ago

Don't worry too much, USB has been steadily making a progress even if it's not expected to be mass adopted for several years. In fact, it was too much to the level that now it brought all the fragmentation headaches to everyone. If this regulation can slow them down and give vendors time to improve their implementation quality, it would be actually better for everyone.