7 ms·

How do you know how to change the laws if nobody is allowed to try different things (thus innovate)? USB-C didn't come from nowhere, and it wasn't a given that

How do you know how to change the laws if nobody is allowed to try different things (thus innovate)? USB-C didn't come from nowhere, and it wasn't a given that it's better than MicroUSB - first the market tested it, then it became a standard. EU laws have worldwide effects, there's no land of cable freedom anymore.

mrtksn 3y ago
EU laws don't expand beyond EU. EU consist about 5% of the population, 95% can have whatever they like. Yes, there's Brussels effect but that effect work when the trouble of designing or producing something else is not worth it. Also, you are not banned from engineering other solutions. The police isn't going to knock on the doors of engineers who are suspected to develop better charging cables :)
- nickpp 3y ago
  There are now zero incentives to research and develop better plugs in the EU since it is illegal to market devices sporting them instead of USB-C.
  - mrtksn 3y ago
    The rest of the world can develop the superior charging cable plugs and we can use this thing called internet to find out about it.
    - nickpp 3y ago
      Depending on the rest of the world for tech, research and innovation is why us, Europeans, are worried about these authoritarian EU mandates which can only cause us falling further behind the rest of the world.
      - mrtksn 3y ago
        Can you give me an example of an EU regulation which prevented an European company invent a technology? I'm familiar with the narrative but I don't know any examples.
        throwaway50606 3y ago
        Gaia-X funneled money to large corporations that used it to market their shitty corporate services and that allowed them to beat actually innovative cloud computing startups.
        mrtksn 3y ago
        I'm not familiar with this. Did it happen due to the EU regulation which dictated that Gaia-X have to funnel money to large corporations? Which regulation specifically you are blaming this to?
        nickpp 3y ago
        By definition, we cannot know the creations and innovations we are missing due to the unintended second-order freezing effects of regulation. This is why we need to be extremely skeptical of regulation and only accept it in truly important and non-trivial cases (unlike a damn charging plug). There is a clear push from European elites for a halt in progress, aiming to maintain a status quo and preserve their existing advantages. Modern corporation not under their control threaten them. As progressives, it is crucial that we fight to ensure that Europe continues to advance instead of turning into an Amish village and we won't have all to emigrate to the US.
        mrtksn 3y ago
        EU citizens are sceptical of the corporations and their ability to regulate themselves. Different attitudes, the American psyche definitely allows for better innovation and business environment but on the other hand in EU we don't have carcinogens in our bread. It is O.K. to have two or more different societies, those feeling like they need more freedom for business can go to the US. It definitely makes the US much more competitive but a lot of people like Europe the way it is. EU is not some company in Belgium, it is made of elected and appointed people from all the EU countries. It's not like EU making up things that members didn't ask for. EU creating a regulation is not like Twitter forcing a new policy over its users.
  - Moldoteck 3y ago
    Wtf are you smoking? You can add other ports, the law is about mandating usb-c. If you want thunderlightening port or anything you want besides usbc, like HEADPHONE JACK, you can doo this...
    - nickpp 3y ago
      How many phones have you seen with multiple different ports for the exact same purpose: charging?
      - TheCleric 3y ago
        I mean Apple currently has two...
      - Moldoteck 3y ago
        I can name a few but why does this matter. The point is Apple can work around this for eu market if they want but at the end consumers will win anyway
        nickpp 3y ago
        I'm a consumer and I lost: I'll have to change all my charging cables with an inferior alternative.
        Moldoteck 3y ago
        Why is it inferior? Last time i checked lightning can't do 240W charging or 40gbps data transfer? Just like afaik typec doesn't have corrosion problem lightning has, also type c is universally used across the majority of brands, heck even in ipads and macbooks, you say apple deliberately choose to replace 'superior port' with 'inferior type c'? Lmao)
        nickpp 3y ago
        Lightning connector is smaller, more robust being a straight male connector as opposed to some weird female-in-male contraption. The port is beveled so it slides easier unlike USB-C whose edge catches and I always have to fumble around. Not as bad as the old USB connector were, with their legendary 3 flips to find the right orientation, but still. No idea what corrosion you are talking about as I never encountered it. I don't need 240W to charge my iPhone, is't not a freaking Tesla and I prefer to prolong the battery life. I will give you the data bandwidth even though today's wifi is quite fast but for laptops MagSafe is an even better charging port, and I hope someday for iPads too.
- throwaway50606 3y ago
  EU is the second largest market in the world. Of course everything is going to be made in a way that's sellable in the EU. > Also, you are not banned from engineering other solutions. The police isn't going to knock on the doors of engineers who are suspected to develop better charging cables :) We are discussing under an article where the regulator has sent a "stern warning" to a company. I don't think what you're saying makes sense. If I tried to sell my better plug in my home market, the police would come knocking.
  - mrtksn 3y ago
    Not necessarily. If you come up with such a superior plug, you can easily have it sold on the 1st largest market in the world. Not everything has to be sold in EU, there are plenty of things not available across all markets.
    - throwaway50606 3y ago
      No, I can't. I need to sell it on both markets to make it profitable. There's no way to have that large margins it could sell just in the US.
      - mrtksn 3y ago
        If you need to sell it on both markets and can't have two production lines, I guess your product will have USB-C port and your superior charging port, like the new MacBooks having type-C and magsafe.
        throwaway50606 3y ago
        And that's supposed to be good? I really don't understand this world...
        mrtksn 3y ago
        It's good because until you invent this new cable, we can have everything work with USB-C. Not betting on your ability to come up with a new type of charging cable is not as big deal as you imagining it is. Maybe you should come up with a prototype before demanding all type of charging cables be allowed?
cwillu 3y ago
Like quantity, ubiquity has a quality of its own.
vidarh 3y ago
You're free to try other things. You're just not free to leave out a USB-C plug as long as that is the standard, and you will run into trouble if you try to play stupid games with adding power delivery profiles to your USB-C support that try to circumvent the goal of these regulations of removing device-specific cables or chargers. If Apple "only" ends up offering a certification mark for USB-C chargers that have been tested with the iPhone and makes that easily accessible, they might well be in the clear. If they try to add power delivery profiles that are unavailable to everyone else, chances are the EU will react.
viraptor 3y ago
Apart from all the existing answers - usb-c did not come to the phones first either. It was available and tested in many other places first. And it makes sense, because if we ever need over 40Gbps of data, or over 200W power, it's extremely unlikely we'll need it for the phones.

mrtksn 3y ago

EU laws don't expand beyond EU. EU consist about 5% of the population, 95% can have whatever they like. Yes, there's Brussels effect but that effect work when the trouble of designing or producing something else is not worth it. Also, you are not banned from engineering other solutions. The police isn't going to knock on the doors of engineers who are suspected to develop better charging cables :)

nickpp 3y ago
There are now zero incentives to research and develop better plugs in the EU since it is illegal to market devices sporting them instead of USB-C.
- mrtksn 3y ago
  The rest of the world can develop the superior charging cable plugs and we can use this thing called internet to find out about it.
  - nickpp 3y ago
    Depending on the rest of the world for tech, research and innovation is why us, Europeans, are worried about these authoritarian EU mandates which can only cause us falling further behind the rest of the world.
    - mrtksn 3y ago
      Can you give me an example of an EU regulation which prevented an European company invent a technology? I'm familiar with the narrative but I don't know any examples.
      - throwaway50606 3y ago
        Gaia-X funneled money to large corporations that used it to market their shitty corporate services and that allowed them to beat actually innovative cloud computing startups.
        mrtksn 3y ago
        I'm not familiar with this. Did it happen due to the EU regulation which dictated that Gaia-X have to funnel money to large corporations? Which regulation specifically you are blaming this to?
      - nickpp 3y ago
        By definition, we cannot know the creations and innovations we are missing due to the unintended second-order freezing effects of regulation. This is why we need to be extremely skeptical of regulation and only accept it in truly important and non-trivial cases (unlike a damn charging plug). There is a clear push from European elites for a halt in progress, aiming to maintain a status quo and preserve their existing advantages. Modern corporation not under their control threaten them. As progressives, it is crucial that we fight to ensure that Europe continues to advance instead of turning into an Amish village and we won't have all to emigrate to the US.
        mrtksn 3y ago
        EU citizens are sceptical of the corporations and their ability to regulate themselves. Different attitudes, the American psyche definitely allows for better innovation and business environment but on the other hand in EU we don't have carcinogens in our bread. It is O.K. to have two or more different societies, those feeling like they need more freedom for business can go to the US. It definitely makes the US much more competitive but a lot of people like Europe the way it is. EU is not some company in Belgium, it is made of elected and appointed people from all the EU countries. It's not like EU making up things that members didn't ask for. EU creating a regulation is not like Twitter forcing a new policy over its users.
- Moldoteck 3y ago
  Wtf are you smoking? You can add other ports, the law is about mandating usb-c. If you want thunderlightening port or anything you want besides usbc, like HEADPHONE JACK, you can doo this...
  - nickpp 3y ago
    How many phones have you seen with multiple different ports for the exact same purpose: charging?
    - TheCleric 3y ago
      I mean Apple currently has two...
    - Moldoteck 3y ago
      I can name a few but why does this matter. The point is Apple can work around this for eu market if they want but at the end consumers will win anyway
      - nickpp 3y ago
        I'm a consumer and I lost: I'll have to change all my charging cables with an inferior alternative.
        Moldoteck 3y ago
        Why is it inferior? Last time i checked lightning can't do 240W charging or 40gbps data transfer? Just like afaik typec doesn't have corrosion problem lightning has, also type c is universally used across the majority of brands, heck even in ipads and macbooks, you say apple deliberately choose to replace 'superior port' with 'inferior type c'? Lmao)
        nickpp 3y ago
        Lightning connector is smaller, more robust being a straight male connector as opposed to some weird female-in-male contraption. The port is beveled so it slides easier unlike USB-C whose edge catches and I always have to fumble around. Not as bad as the old USB connector were, with their legendary 3 flips to find the right orientation, but still. No idea what corrosion you are talking about as I never encountered it. I don't need 240W to charge my iPhone, is't not a freaking Tesla and I prefer to prolong the battery life. I will give you the data bandwidth even though today's wifi is quite fast but for laptops MagSafe is an even better charging port, and I hope someday for iPads too.
throwaway50606 3y ago
EU is the second largest market in the world. Of course everything is going to be made in a way that's sellable in the EU. > Also, you are not banned from engineering other solutions. The police isn't going to knock on the doors of engineers who are suspected to develop better charging cables :) We are discussing under an article where the regulator has sent a "stern warning" to a company. I don't think what you're saying makes sense. If I tried to sell my better plug in my home market, the police would come knocking.
- mrtksn 3y ago
  Not necessarily. If you come up with such a superior plug, you can easily have it sold on the 1st largest market in the world. Not everything has to be sold in EU, there are plenty of things not available across all markets.
  - throwaway50606 3y ago
    No, I can't. I need to sell it on both markets to make it profitable. There's no way to have that large margins it could sell just in the US.
    - mrtksn 3y ago
      If you need to sell it on both markets and can't have two production lines, I guess your product will have USB-C port and your superior charging port, like the new MacBooks having type-C and magsafe.
      - throwaway50606 3y ago
        And that's supposed to be good? I really don't understand this world...
        mrtksn 3y ago
        It's good because until you invent this new cable, we can have everything work with USB-C. Not betting on your ability to come up with a new type of charging cable is not as big deal as you imagining it is. Maybe you should come up with a prototype before demanding all type of charging cables be allowed?

cwillu 3y ago

Like quantity, ubiquity has a quality of its own.

vidarh 3y ago

You're free to try other things. You're just not free to leave out a USB-C plug as long as that is the standard, and you will run into trouble if you try to play stupid games with adding power delivery profiles to your USB-C support that try to circumvent the goal of these regulations of removing device-specific cables or chargers. If Apple "only" ends up offering a certification mark for USB-C chargers that have been tested with the iPhone and makes that easily accessible, they might well be in the clear. If they try to add power delivery profiles that are unavailable to everyone else, chances are the EU will react.

viraptor 3y ago

Apart from all the existing answers - usb-c did not come to the phones first either. It was available and tested in many other places first. And it makes sense, because if we ever need over 40Gbps of data, or over 200W power, it's extremely unlikely we'll need it for the phones.