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Really confused as to how processed meats lead to an insulin resistance disease. Also, I thought refined carbs have similar glucose index as their non-refined

Really confused as to how processed meats lead to an insulin resistance disease. Also, I thought refined carbs have similar glucose index as their non-refined counter parts, so how would adding more insulin inducing foods be beneficial? And how come the grand daddy of insulin spikes, sugar, isn't a factor?

btilly 3y ago
The non-refined versions may release as much glucose, but they don't do it all at once. Also the fiber that they contain is good for you. Processed meats contain a LOT of salt. Salt doesn't cause diabetes, but it does cause water retention and high blood pressure, so is bad for people with diabetes. As for sugar, they are on the list of foods they examined. What they found is that we're eating more French fries, so that turns out to be a bigger factor in practice.
- thih9 3y ago
  > Processed meats contain a LOT of salt. Salt doesn't cause diabetes, but it does cause water retention and high blood pressure, so is bad for people with diabetes. Why is salt / bad influence for people with diabetes relevant in this context? Weren’t we interested in meat in relation to the rising global incidence of diabetes? Cottage cheese, shrimp, canned tuna and more also are high in sodium.
  - SoftTalker 3y ago
    Processed meats often also contain a lot of sugar. Breakfast sausage, bacon, etc. frequently have added sugar.
    - epistasis 3y ago
      Even beef jerky has ridiculous amounts of sugar, it's hard to find a brand that doesn't have more sugar calories than protein calories. I tend to cook nearly all my own food anyway, but it would be nice to be able to pay somebody to make ready to eat foods that didn't include ridiculously needless additions.
      - Retric 3y ago
        It’s hard to produce tasty food at a reasonable price point that doesn’t involve lots of sugar, salt, etc. Worse, when you aim for that market customers start to want local, organic, grass fed, etc which drastically increases ingredient costs.
      - rcme 3y ago
        You can buy sugar-free beef jerky. It tastes terrible.
        epistasis 3y ago
        I make sugar free jerky, and it is better or about the same as store bought jerky. It's about 20 minutes of total work for roughly two pounds, spread out over 8-12 hours of marinating and drying. So the question is why it's hard to get even moderately low amounts of sugar, say <20% of calories from added sugar.
  - base698 3y ago
    Not a doctor but it's because when you are diabetic the angiotensin system gets out of whack. Angiotensin is what is part of what regulates sodium and potassium in your kidneys which is what controls blood pressure. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renin%E2%80%93angiotensin_system https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renin%E2%80%93angiotensin_sy... I think the salt consumption is a bit of a red herring and it's better to fix the metabolic syndrome.
- stefantalpalaru 3y ago
  [dead]
- steve_adams_86 3y ago
  It isn’t known to be causal but one suspected link is nitrites present in processed meats. This study seems to be the best we have. It’s observational and involved self reporting of diets. https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/journal.pmed.1004149 https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/jo... It’s complicated too because nitrites found in fresh vegetables are strongly correlated with health improvements. This could mean that nitrites aren’t the problem, nitrites in the presence of animal proteins is the problem, or in the presence of fat, salt, etc. It doesn’t appear very clear to me.
lepus 3y ago
https://nutritionfacts.org/video/what-causes-insulin-resistance/ https://nutritionfacts.org/video/what-causes-insulin-resista... Inflammation leading to glucose accumulating in the bloodstream.
BeetleB 3y ago
The glycemic index has always been a fringe concept amongst researchers.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
bsder 3y ago
I'm also confused as to how "insufficient whole grain intake" has such a high correlation. "Whole wheat flour" hasn't been the norm in the US since the late 1800s and yet we only seem to have a Type-2 Diabetes problem recently. Any study like this needs to have an explanation for the recentness of obesity and diabetes epidemics.
- ordx 3y ago
  Sedentary lifestyle?
  - bsder 3y ago
    Possibly. But my personal unsubstantiated pet theory is nicotine and alcohol. Consumption of both of those dropped right as the obesity epidemic picked up. Nicotine is a known appetite suppressant. Alcoholics are known to have terrifically clean arteries (at the cost of liver disease).
rdedev 3y ago
I believe the theory is that processed meat leads to visceral fat accumulation in the pancreas. Of course you can mitigate the risk if you exercise and eat meat in moderation. https://youtu.be/X5GIExMa4rM https://youtu.be/X5GIExMa4rM This is the video I got it from. I'm in no way an expert on this topic so take it with a bit of salt
aszantu 3y ago
I think I heard this in some Peter Attia podcast. The kidneys turn salt into fructose as far as I know. When u're diabetic and you consume salt it's much better to have it in liquid form. I don't think the reasons are known, but it doesn't raise the serum sodium as much.
- belltaco 3y ago
  > The kidneys turn salt into fructose as far as I know Huh, how is NaCl turned into C12H22O11. That'd need like a nuclear rection or alchemism.
- ikiris 3y ago
  None of what parent said in any way resembles how kidneys or even biology in general functions.
  - canucker2016 3y ago
    The parent may be referring to Peter Attia's talk with Dr. Rick Johnson in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbSic4Oo8ME https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbSic4Oo8ME Dr. Johnson doesn't mention what organ in the body performs the conversion, but he does mention that high serum sodium activates an enzyme which converts glucose to fructose. Fructose, in high amounts, causes high uric acid, leading to inflammation, insulin resistance, and causes the body to switch from fat-burning to fat storage (bears and migrating birds will increase their fructose consumption before hibernating/migrating). According to Dr. Johnson, if you eat some food and feel thirsty, that indicates that your body has already started converting glucose to fructose internally. Drinking enough liquid to keep the serum sodium from increasing will prevent this conversion. from https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3833672/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3833672/ (Dr. Johnson is a co-authour of this article) "... activation of aldose reductase in the liver with conversion of glucose to fructose" Then I found this article, https://www.hindawi.com/journals/ijn/2011/392708/ https://www.hindawi.com/journals/ijn/2011/392708/, which states that "The increase in dietary fructose intake stimulates salt absorption in the small intestine and kidney proximal tubule through coordinated activation of PAT1, NHE3, and Glut5. We propose that reducing dietary intake of fructose and salt, as well as maneuvers aimed at inhibiting fructose absorption in the intestine and kidney tubules, could have profound beneficial effect on controlling blood pressure in patients with metabolic syndrome."
BigCryo 3y ago
The article represents conventional wisdom among dietitians and scientists and so forth. It is true that overconsumption of processed meats and red meats and poor carbohydrate quality does lead to an increase in weight being overweight etc, especially weight over the stomach.. if you have a fat stomach you have insulin resistance and it decreases output from the pancreas.. this causes high blood sugar.. Now however, once you get fat and specially fat over the stomach then even high quality carbohydrates can cause high blood sugar which is the definition of diabetes.. so what happens is that low quality carbs plus processed meat leads to being overweight and having a fat stomach, which causes insulin resistance and decreased output from the pancreas.. once you get in this condition however adding whole grains does not help at that point, in fact it adds to your high blood sugar and in fact eating high quality grains at that point, once you have a fat stomach, leads to high blood sugar which is the definition of diabetes ... In other words, once you have fat over the stomach in great quantities, if you eat whole grains, fruits and beans and so forth at that point, that will cause diabetes, diabetes being high blood sugar.. you want to eat the high quality carbs, fruit, and beans before you get fat.. if you eat it after you get fat you will develop diabetes because high quality carbs, fruit, beans etc will give you high blood sugar if you have fat over the stomach
- jmartrican 3y ago
  Interesting. Thanks for sharing.
base698 3y ago
I am but an n of 1. I have been monitoring my blood sugar, cholesterol, lipids and some other metabolic markers for 2 years. I struggled keeping my blood sugar under 100. My cholesterol was kind of high at 220 total. Switched to a keto two months ago and everything has improved. Blood sugar always 90 or less, cholesterol 180, LDL down about 30%.

btilly 3y ago

The non-refined versions may release as much glucose, but they don't do it all at once. Also the fiber that they contain is good for you. Processed meats contain a LOT of salt. Salt doesn't cause diabetes, but it does cause water retention and high blood pressure, so is bad for people with diabetes. As for sugar, they are on the list of foods they examined. What they found is that we're eating more French fries, so that turns out to be a bigger factor in practice.

thih9 3y ago
> Processed meats contain a LOT of salt. Salt doesn't cause diabetes, but it does cause water retention and high blood pressure, so is bad for people with diabetes. Why is salt / bad influence for people with diabetes relevant in this context? Weren’t we interested in meat in relation to the rising global incidence of diabetes? Cottage cheese, shrimp, canned tuna and more also are high in sodium.
- SoftTalker 3y ago
  Processed meats often also contain a lot of sugar. Breakfast sausage, bacon, etc. frequently have added sugar.
  - epistasis 3y ago
    Even beef jerky has ridiculous amounts of sugar, it's hard to find a brand that doesn't have more sugar calories than protein calories. I tend to cook nearly all my own food anyway, but it would be nice to be able to pay somebody to make ready to eat foods that didn't include ridiculously needless additions.
    - Retric 3y ago
      It’s hard to produce tasty food at a reasonable price point that doesn’t involve lots of sugar, salt, etc. Worse, when you aim for that market customers start to want local, organic, grass fed, etc which drastically increases ingredient costs.
    - rcme 3y ago
      You can buy sugar-free beef jerky. It tastes terrible.
      - epistasis 3y ago
        I make sugar free jerky, and it is better or about the same as store bought jerky. It's about 20 minutes of total work for roughly two pounds, spread out over 8-12 hours of marinating and drying. So the question is why it's hard to get even moderately low amounts of sugar, say <20% of calories from added sugar.
- base698 3y ago
  Not a doctor but it's because when you are diabetic the angiotensin system gets out of whack. Angiotensin is what is part of what regulates sodium and potassium in your kidneys which is what controls blood pressure. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renin%E2%80%93angiotensin_system https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renin%E2%80%93angiotensin_sy... I think the salt consumption is a bit of a red herring and it's better to fix the metabolic syndrome.
stefantalpalaru 3y ago
[dead]
steve_adams_86 3y ago
It isn’t known to be causal but one suspected link is nitrites present in processed meats. This study seems to be the best we have. It’s observational and involved self reporting of diets. https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/journal.pmed.1004149 https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/jo... It’s complicated too because nitrites found in fresh vegetables are strongly correlated with health improvements. This could mean that nitrites aren’t the problem, nitrites in the presence of animal proteins is the problem, or in the presence of fat, salt, etc. It doesn’t appear very clear to me.

lepus 3y ago

https://nutritionfacts.org/video/what-causes-insulin-resistance/ https://nutritionfacts.org/video/what-causes-insulin-resista... Inflammation leading to glucose accumulating in the bloodstream.

BeetleB 3y ago

The glycemic index has always been a fringe concept amongst researchers.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

bsder 3y ago

I'm also confused as to how "insufficient whole grain intake" has such a high correlation. "Whole wheat flour" hasn't been the norm in the US since the late 1800s and yet we only seem to have a Type-2 Diabetes problem recently. Any study like this needs to have an explanation for the recentness of obesity and diabetes epidemics.

ordx 3y ago
Sedentary lifestyle?
- bsder 3y ago
  Possibly. But my personal unsubstantiated pet theory is nicotine and alcohol. Consumption of both of those dropped right as the obesity epidemic picked up. Nicotine is a known appetite suppressant. Alcoholics are known to have terrifically clean arteries (at the cost of liver disease).

rdedev 3y ago

I believe the theory is that processed meat leads to visceral fat accumulation in the pancreas. Of course you can mitigate the risk if you exercise and eat meat in moderation. https://youtu.be/X5GIExMa4rM https://youtu.be/X5GIExMa4rM This is the video I got it from. I'm in no way an expert on this topic so take it with a bit of salt

aszantu 3y ago

I think I heard this in some Peter Attia podcast. The kidneys turn salt into fructose as far as I know. When u're diabetic and you consume salt it's much better to have it in liquid form. I don't think the reasons are known, but it doesn't raise the serum sodium as much.

belltaco 3y ago
> The kidneys turn salt into fructose as far as I know Huh, how is NaCl turned into C12H22O11. That'd need like a nuclear rection or alchemism.
ikiris 3y ago
None of what parent said in any way resembles how kidneys or even biology in general functions.
- canucker2016 3y ago
  The parent may be referring to Peter Attia's talk with Dr. Rick Johnson in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbSic4Oo8ME https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbSic4Oo8ME Dr. Johnson doesn't mention what organ in the body performs the conversion, but he does mention that high serum sodium activates an enzyme which converts glucose to fructose. Fructose, in high amounts, causes high uric acid, leading to inflammation, insulin resistance, and causes the body to switch from fat-burning to fat storage (bears and migrating birds will increase their fructose consumption before hibernating/migrating). According to Dr. Johnson, if you eat some food and feel thirsty, that indicates that your body has already started converting glucose to fructose internally. Drinking enough liquid to keep the serum sodium from increasing will prevent this conversion. from https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3833672/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3833672/ (Dr. Johnson is a co-authour of this article) "... activation of aldose reductase in the liver with conversion of glucose to fructose" Then I found this article, https://www.hindawi.com/journals/ijn/2011/392708/ https://www.hindawi.com/journals/ijn/2011/392708/, which states that "The increase in dietary fructose intake stimulates salt absorption in the small intestine and kidney proximal tubule through coordinated activation of PAT1, NHE3, and Glut5. We propose that reducing dietary intake of fructose and salt, as well as maneuvers aimed at inhibiting fructose absorption in the intestine and kidney tubules, could have profound beneficial effect on controlling blood pressure in patients with metabolic syndrome."

BigCryo 3y ago

The article represents conventional wisdom among dietitians and scientists and so forth. It is true that overconsumption of processed meats and red meats and poor carbohydrate quality does lead to an increase in weight being overweight etc, especially weight over the stomach.. if you have a fat stomach you have insulin resistance and it decreases output from the pancreas.. this causes high blood sugar.. Now however, once you get fat and specially fat over the stomach then even high quality carbohydrates can cause high blood sugar which is the definition of diabetes.. so what happens is that low quality carbs plus processed meat leads to being overweight and having a fat stomach, which causes insulin resistance and decreased output from the pancreas.. once you get in this condition however adding whole grains does not help at that point, in fact it adds to your high blood sugar and in fact eating high quality grains at that point, once you have a fat stomach, leads to high blood sugar which is the definition of diabetes ... In other words, once you have fat over the stomach in great quantities, if you eat whole grains, fruits and beans and so forth at that point, that will cause diabetes, diabetes being high blood sugar.. you want to eat the high quality carbs, fruit, and beans before you get fat.. if you eat it after you get fat you will develop diabetes because high quality carbs, fruit, beans etc will give you high blood sugar if you have fat over the stomach

jmartrican 3y ago
Interesting. Thanks for sharing.

base698 3y ago

I am but an n of 1. I have been monitoring my blood sugar, cholesterol, lipids and some other metabolic markers for 2 years. I struggled keeping my blood sugar under 100. My cholesterol was kind of high at 220 total. Switched to a keto two months ago and everything has improved. Blood sugar always 90 or less, cholesterol 180, LDL down about 30%.