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The Fifty is awake again
- geogra4 15y agoI guess we could call this "Big Iron", eh?
- ilaksh 15y agoThis type of romanticization of military production is obscene. One of my worst fears is that we might see the current military campaigns surrounding Iran and the area around it develop into another "great" war. There is nothing stopping us from using this manufacturing equipment to build tools of creation rather than destruction. I remember reading something in my history textbooks many years ago that suggested that although war meant massive loss of life and destruction, it wasn't all bad, because it was "very good for the economy". That line of thinking only holds water if you believe that humans are disposable or buy into a sort of 19th century Social Darwinism. There is so much money to be made in war. Please, everyone look at a map. http://binged.it/A6U96Z http://binged.it/A6U96Z These activities in Afghanistan, Iraq, Egypt, Libya, Syria, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, etc. are not isolated instances. This is an aggressive war of domination, resource acquisition and territorial control. It is completely insane and inexcusable.
- Mongoose 15y agoAgreed. Was disheartened to read that the machine's primary use in the coming years will be to build JSF planes instead of infrastructure for new light rail networks.
- rpeden 15y agoAt least that fact that it was refurbished and continues to be used means that when the time comes (and it will), the US will have the equipment it needs to produce most of that infrastructure itself.
- mjwalshe 15y agoWell a bus on train tracks aka a tram doesnt require realy heavy plant and train track arnt made that way.
- jws 15y agoThe JSF was just an example. With a 30 cycle per hour rate it should be obvious that JSFs can't be a primary use. They make a lot of critical parts for commercial airliners. Parts where a high strength to weight or volume ratio is critical are the candidates for such an expensive process. I suspect most of the output is in aircraft, spacecraft, turbine blades, and possibly other machine tools. The journalist had to pick one that people would recognize.
- rpeden 15y agoI think you are reading too much into this. I didn't see any romanticization of military production - just a fascinating description of a very interesting piece of engineering. The article specifically mentioned that the press is used to create parts for commercial aircraft as well.
- deleted 15y ago[deleted]
- bluekeybox 15y ago> One of my worst fears is that we might see the current military campaigns surrounding Iran and the area around it develop into another "great" war. I am a supporter of American world domination through preferably peaceful means, and think that criticism of social Darwinism was mostly misdirected, but your fears are not at all unfounded. Back in the 19th century, Bismarck famously said, "One day the great European War will come out of some damned foolish thing in the Balkans" -- we all know what happened next.
- maratd 15y ago> This type of romanticization of military production is obscene. If you study history even on a superficial basis, you'll find that violence only breaks out in asymmetric situations. In other words, only when one side is thoroughly convinced it can kick the other's ass. The best way to prevent war is through trade. The second best is to make sure both sides engage in "obscene" military production and are evenly matched. Weapons are merely tools. If deployed intelligently, they can be used to mitigate any violent impulses and keep the peace.
- ilaksh 15y agoRight, weapons are tools for peace. Of course they are. How ignorant of me. This type of thinking and other similar viewpoints indicate a strong likelihood of another world war. Realistically, it has probably already started in a way. Does anyone own a nuclear-proof bomb shelter? Seriously, I am looking for a place to hide.
- batista 15y agoThis type of thinking and other similar viewpoints indicate a strong likelihood of another world war. Yeah, but why should they care? A war for a sufficiently advanced country such as US just means some place thousands miles away getting bombed, and a small percentage (compared to the enemy) of professional soldiers getting hurt. In other words, they have no f/n concept of what war actually entails and the toils of a country at war. Well, the budget might be hurt a little, but that's it. Whereas even the budget of the other small country will be totally devastated by a war.
- a_a_r_o_n 15y agoMaybe. But there's a certain amount of risk in two sides pointing loaded guns at each others' heads. Let's hope trade succeeds.
- trevelyan 15y agoI was under the impression that most prolonged conflicts prior to the 20th century involved well-matched opponents: Greek city states, Rome versus Carthage (except possibly the third Carthaginian war), the Three Kingdoms period in China, and practically all of European history post 1648. Then in the twentieth century alone we start with WWI and WWII (the German military did not view the war against the Soviet Union as winnable), and end up with a great number of proxy wars in the mid-East and Asia. The trade argument is strange considering that the world economy was more tightly integrated in 1914 than it is today. It is probably correct that nuclear weapons exert something of a stabilizing force, although it is disconcerting that the nash equilibrium for games of mutual-assured destruction requires random detonation by both parties in order to demonstrate irrationality and establish deterrence.
- icarus_drowning 15y agoI think you're reading into this what you want to read into this rather than what is actually there. Sure, this is being used to build JSF's, but really it is a romanticization of American production-- an antidote to the "nothing is made here" nonsense that has become popular these days. Meanwhile, I'm confused why you're so quick to start what will only be an incendiary political discussion that has nothing to do with the article at all. There are probably better forums than HN to post essays about U.S. military and foreign policy.
- sliverstorm 15y agoI find people with an agenda will do their best to warp anything remotely related to fit & promote said agenda. Man in uniform saved a kitten from a tree? Clearly pro-Iraq war propaganda. Etc.
- batista 15y agoMan in uniform saved a kitten from a tree? Clearly pro-Iraq war propaganda. Etc. Actually, sounds terribly like it. I.e not pro-Iraq per se, but pro-military in general. Those kinds of images are used all the time, especially in countries heading or involved in wars. Also the "soldiers doing cool things", "soldier playing guitar back in the camp and longing for home", "soldiers having some innocent fun between attacks", and the "soldier is a regular guy from some place back home", etc. They are used in order to make the military personnel look humanize, and in effect humanize the war effort. (Of course, that's not to say that soldiers aren't human: just that this has nothing to do with them being soldiers. Everyone is human -- but war is dehumanizing and makes you do dehumanizing things).
- jws 15y agoThis PDF will tell you all about the press: http://files.asme.org/asmeorg/communities/history/landmarks/5488.pdf http://files.asme.org/asmeorg/communities/history/landmarks/...
- femto 15y agoI love the pictures in that article. The views of Metsa machine tools creating Metsa machine tools has a real "self replication" feel. Put iron into an engineering shop and out pops a copy of the engineering shop. Does the Metsa company still exist?
- rpeden 15y agoThe Mesta Machine Company is now part of WHEMCO - specifically, what used to be Mesta is now WHEMCO Steel Castings Inc. http://www.whemco.com/whemco_steel_castings.aspx http://www.whemco.com/whemco_steel_castings.aspx There's a bit of company history at http://todengine.websitetoolbox.com/post/Mesta-Machine-Company-3662333 http://todengine.websitetoolbox.com/post/Mesta-Machine-Compa... .
- femto 15y agoNot mentioned in the article is that forging delivers a stronger part than casting or machining, since the grain of the metal remains continuous. Hence its use in turbine blades and so on. If you ever want to see a true craftsman in action, it's a master blacksmith in charge of a steam hammer. He can go from literally cracking an egg to delivering a blow whose resonance nearly brings the building down. Combined with with the way he manipulates the workpiece, it is poetry in motion.
- Danieru 15y agoI would really like to see that. Unfortunately I don't think we have a neighborhood blacksmith. Do you know of any videos on youtube?
- extension 15y agohttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmS3LgfdT7E http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmS3LgfdT7E That is one hot and noisy job.
- ars 15y agoI think this one is better - you can see what they make, rather than just fireballs. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBQQS7oMW2A http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBQQS7oMW2A
- gaustin 15y agoLooks like you live in Calgary, based on the website in your profile. Definitely a lot of blacksmiths up that way, but you might have to get out of town a little bit. Blacksmiths are always having hammer-ins (hackfest/demo day analog). If you can get to Brooks, AB, CA in June there is a forged knife hammer-in. Email me (in my profile) and I'll get you details. Abana.org is also a great place to find smiths. The cool thing about hammer-ins is that newbies or people with only a casual interest often get to play with the toys (with careful instruction).
- Hacktivist 15y agoIt isn't quite as simple as saying that forging produces a stronger part since a monocrystalline casting of a turbine blade would be stronger than a forged polycrystalline one.
- deleted 15y ago[deleted]
- rpeden 15y agoI'd love to have a chance to see it in action. Many of us here work as engineers. Few of us are likely to be building something like this, a machine that will be able to serve its purpose relatively unmodified for over a century.
- angersock 15y agoAgreed, barring a sudden resurgence in the use of COBOL.
- ak217 15y agoVery neat, but I'd be more worried that the next generation of materials manufacturing - carbon fiber and nanotube looms and autoclaves - will be completely China based.
- maxmcd 15y agoWhy worried? I understand it signifies less of an exciting engineering presence in the united states, but beyond being disappointing, why is that actually a problem?
- _delirium 15y agoOne reason is that whole ecosystems and expertise grow up around manufacturing, so it means the U.S. would lack both the knowledge and secondary industry. Also we'd be basically screwed in any standoff with China! Especially since their economy is heavily state-controlled, they would have a de-facto veto over any U.S. equipment that they didn't want built.
- SoftwareMaven 15y agoThe more interdependent the world gets, the harder it will be for any one nation to go rogue. That is a good thing. However, if, instead of a cyclical graph, we wind up with a tree, things could get very ugly (but don't have to). The US likes to think of itself as the root of the tree, and maybe it even was for part of the 20th century (the US was central to a lot of manufacturing and design), but those days seem to be over now. As a citizen of the US, I find that scary, but only because I think many people in the US will fight tooth and nail to try to keep being the root.
- patrickk 15y ago"The more interdependent the world gets, the harder it will be for any one nation to go rogue." The world pre-WWI was actually quite globalised[1], more so than most people today would imagine that it was. Yet that wasn't enough to prevent the horrors of WWI trench warfare. I think a similar fallacy exists today - that globalisation will prevent WWIII. Violence and combat has existed for all of human history and there's no reason to think it will ever disappear, sadly. In a few decades anyone that remembers being alive during WWII will be dead and the possibility of WWIII will become stronger, IMO. Just like the Glass-Steagall act was enacted after the 1929 crash[2], but repealed once the scars of the Great Depression had faded from the public's consciousness, the spectre of the outbreak of WWIII will loom ever larger as those who remember the horror of WWI & WWII pass on, and the lessons learned forgotten. [1] http://www.americanforeignrelations.com/E-N/Globalization-First-era-of-modern-globalization-to-1914.html#b http://www.americanforeignrelations.com/E-N/Globalization-Fi... [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass%E2%80%93Steagall_Act http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass%E2%80%93Steagall_Act
- jacques_chester 15y agoA fascinating read. In Warfighting, the USMC doctrinal manual, there is a discussion of war as a process of seeking out and exploiting weaknesses in the enemy's system. This press strikes me as such a weakness: it is the only one of its kind in the US, a pretty clear industrial chokepoint. And there are lots of such chokepoints. German military production was stunted during WW2 by the bombing of ball-bearing factories.
- siculars 15y agoConsidering the decimation of the manufacturing base here in the USA, I shudder to think what would happen were we required to make war on the scale of the previous World Wars. Virtually all our electronics are made somewhere else. We can't even build our own infrastructure[0]. Who will build the Liberty Ships[1]? [0]http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/26/business/global/26bridge.html?pagewanted=all http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/26/business/global/26bridge.h... [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_ship http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_ship
- rdtsc 15y ago> war on the scale of the previous World Wars. That will not happen again. It is a bygone era. Now it will either be country to country attacks (Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam) or full blown nuclear wipe-out. In either case protecting Cleveland won't make much of a difference.
- tpatke 15y agoPeople said the same thing after WWI. ...and they were right. WWII was fought differently from WWI.
- fuzzmeister 15y agoWith WWI or WWII era technology, it would take a great power months, even years to destroy the population of another. Now? Less than an hour.
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- orenjacob 15y agoI visited the ALS at LBL many years ago. Then I got to see that big (really big) laser at LLNL a few years ago. I'd like to see this machine too, I bet it's bigger than both of those...
- sterling312 15y agoThis reminds me of the recent book review on the Economist. http://www.economist.com/node/21545983 http://www.economist.com/node/21545983 To quote one passage: "Mr Collini is moved by Newman’s insistence that a liberal education is not about what students learn or what skills they acquire but “the perspective they have on the place of their knowledge in a wider map of human understanding”."
- lionhearted 15y agoStrategic resource storage and strategic industry development was a big part of making me start questioning libertarianism. I then learned a bit about common power dynamics and met a lot of people who felt trapped in bad situations getting screwed around with, and the break was made for me. I'm still sympathetic to the cause, and think libertarians are really fantastic people who believe immensely in human potential. I also know the counterarguments -- at what cost?, etc, etc -- but I'm glad the USA built industry that wouldn't necessarily be economical on the timeframes that standard capital investments generally look for.
- wisty 15y agoThere's two kinds of Libertarians - the ones who actually think all government interference is bad, and those who think that governments simply have a tendency to go too far, so fighting government interference will probably push them back to a more reasonable position. The first kind are louder.
- ThomPete 15y agoBut isn't the result the same? I can't help think that we started without governments and ended up with them. In fact it seems like governments beat every other known alternative power structure. In other words even if we removed all nation states and started from scratch we would most likely end up with some sort of government. The reasons for this are manifold, but especially the democratic state have some inherent perceptual integrity since it allows for "resetting". But of course as always these are not objective metrics at all. But the problem with libertarians isn't their view but rather the idea it itself. We started in many ways in a libertarian world. Evolution took us to the states and technology will maybe take us through the state and to something completely different but carried on from the current system.
- natrius 15y agoYou're arguing against anarchism, not libertarianism.