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How is it sacrifice? Many people simply don’t want kids or can’t afford them. Has little to do with sacrifice.
by pokstad 3y ago
How is it sacrifice? Many people simply don’t want kids or can’t afford them. Has little to do with sacrifice.
- sourcecodeplz 3y agoI think it is actually selfish because you were given the greatest gift of all, life, and you should "pay it forward".
- saiojd 3y agoNot really selfish at all when you consider that the Earth's population cannot grow infinitely. Some people have kids, others don't, not a big deal.
- hsbauauvhabzb 3y agoThat’s assuming the human race naturally reducing or eventually dying out is considered selfish in the first place. We really place too much longevity of humans while extinguishing animals for sport.
- pokstad 3y agoThat’s not necessarily true. The biggest resource constraint on the earth we can’t live without is food and we are extremely inefficient at producing it. Right now it takes large fields of biological crops, but the future might solve that problem.
- saiojd 3y agoThat's a good point. The more I think about it the more what I said was a way of rationalizing not agreeing with the parent comment. Even if there were no ressource constrains it still doesn't feel selfish to me not to have children.
- antisthenes 3y agoEvery couple can have 2 kids and it would keep the population constant. In fact everyone having just 2 isn't enough, it has to be slightly higher, even with modern medicine.
- pixl97 3y agoThat would be assuming that we've not already overshot sustainable population. With every biodiversity marker pointing that we're in the middle of a mass extinction, it really does seem like that may be the case.
- jfengel 3y agoI am paying it forward. Many people will live better lives because of me. The fact that they share 99.99% of my genes rather than 99.999% is not my main concern.
- eyelidlessness 3y agoI didn’t ask for the gift and I don’t owe anyone anything for it. If you want to treat life as some kind of exchange, you at least need consent from the parties to it.
- mensetmanusman 3y agoSounds like a miserable point of view…
- eyelidlessness 3y agoI’m happy that I’m under no obligation to procreate, nor to raise children I don’t want. What’s miserable about that?
- gumby 3y agoI don’t understand. You should have as many kids as you possibly can (à la Monty Python) to provide the “gift” as widely as possible? Or you owe other people (mostly ppl you don’t know) the existence of a child for some reason?
- Teever 3y agoI've always been puzzled by the 'its so selfish to not have kids' idea. Like where does that come from? How did you come to that conclusion, was it something you came to one day after careful consideration or was it something you heard one day and just started saying because everyone else was saying it? I don't mean that to be rude, I'm genuinely curious. Like what's so selfish about it? If Norman Borlaug or Frederick Banting never had children but they otherwise did the work that they did, would you consider them selfish? Is someone who has 10 kids in poverty less selfish than someone not poor who only has 1? What's the ideal number of children to minimize selfishness?
- tivert 3y ago> I've always been puzzled by the 'its so selfish to not have kids' idea. Like where does that come from? Why is it so puzzling? You're part of a whole, and producing children is important work to sustain that whole. If no one did it, the whole would die. Skipping that work voluntarily is a kind of freeloading (and also would typically involves redirecting the personal resources that would have gone to it towards increasing selfish consumption). > If Norman Borlaug or Frederick Banting never had children but they otherwise did the work that they did, would you consider them selfish? Maybe people like that, with one-in-a-billion achievements, are the exceptions that prove the rule.... except they both also had children.
- robotshmobot 3y ago> If no one did it, the whole would die. Skipping that work voluntarily is a kind of freeloading (and also would typically involves redirecting the personal resources that would have gone to it towards increasing selfish consumption). There is no amount of consumption a child free middle class person could do in their lifetime that equals that of introducing a whole other person. That’s ridiculous.
- tivert 3y ago> There is no amount of consumption a child free middle class person could do in their lifetime that equals that of introducing a whole other person. That’s ridiculous. What's ridiculous is how much you completely misunderstood my comment. Personal "consumption" has nothing to do with the core idea I was talking about. The only way it factors in at all is like the "insult" in "add insult to injury" (i.e. an ancillary thing that just makes perception of an underlying issue worse).
- nunez 3y agoWhat does that even mean in this context? How is having kids you don't want "paying it forward?"
- agonmon 3y ago1. The people that don't want kids, cannot accurately model what it is like having kids. Your brain and hormonal output changes after a birth. 2. Children aren't that expensive unless the parents are playing status games (e.g. acting rich), and statistically it's poorer people that end up having more kids. On the topic of sacrifice: One of my kids is just starting to stand up, and is using my shirt to pull herself up while squealing in triumph and delight. It's hard to express the fulfillment and existential meaning provided from children. If I was told I would have to give them all up, it would be a soul-crushing sacrifice. Irrecoverable.
- paulryanrogers 3y agoYou can model the experience before having kids. Babysit a few different ages. Hormones don't always (ever?) change enough to overcome the predictable and significant costs. Likely more than 250k per child to get them to adulthood, and unlikely to stop there. It also matter with whom and how you parent. Are sleep training, daycare, diapers, Tylenol, and bottle feeding the devil? Must you potty train from birth, diaper free? Naturopath parenting or bust? Prepare yourself for sleep deprivation, higher risk of depression, many trips to the ER, and the smell of shit and piss. If your doctor or therapist insists you'll need medication and/or change your parenting style, then how many second opinions will you seek out before trying something else? There is a balance of course, no one should neglect kids. Yet finding that, especially with an opinionated partner and the parent industrial complex, may be a long journey.
- VirusNewbie 3y ago>Babysit a few different ages. That's such a weird thing to say. If I said "you can model what its like to be in a happy marriage. Hang out with some randos wife for a bit" you'd think that is crazy. Plenty of kids are little shits. I really really like my kid (and some others). Just like I wouldn't marry most people I meet...
- paulryanrogers 3y agoIt's an approximation of course. IME far better than just hoping you'll like it and adapt, having never done anything like it. Dating and living together before marriage is much the same idea. Of course you may babysit a bad kid and have your own great kids. Babysitting first will still at least provide a frame of reference.
- smegsicle 3y ago> Many people simply don’t want kids there's a bit of a gender disparity in that group. three obvious solutions: 1. not care that most of this 1/5 of women are missing out on something they want 2. legalize and normalize polygamy 3. redirect culture to 'man up' and help provide families for the women who want them other (esoteric?) solutions?