5 ms·

Aren't you cherry picking cases where the defendant chose to represent himself? Otherwise wouldn't their legal council handle the timely filing of an appeal?

by avar 3y ago

webnrrd2k 3y ago
So... people who represent themselves have no right to equal justice? Or just that they should need to clear an absurdly high bar?
- avar 3y ago
  I'm not saying the American justice system doesn't suck. Just that the GP's story might start with "after explicitly refusing the services of their public defender, who'd normally be tasked with filing the paperwork for an appeal....". It also sucks that people literally starve due to poverty, but if you're starving after explicitly refusing food stamps your story's going to sound very fun different.
ROTMetro 3y ago
Sorry for misunderstanding of what access to Constitutional rights mean in the United States. Thanks for clearing that up. 14 days to excursive your rights does seem totally reasonable now that you have clarified. Not all counsel is willing to file an appeal as it tends to upset the local judge the lawyer goes before regularly when they 'go above the judges head' to the appeals court. Not everyone wants to use the same lawyer that just lost to do their appeal. 14 days to get new counsel, get them to understand your case, all while going through the process of being shipped to your final place of incarceration actually is reasonable, what was I thinking? After spending $250,000 on a trial, getting resources together while in prison to try and appeal should totally just take 14 days. (lawyers, funnily, ask for a pretty large chunk up front). Processing a judge's ruling and trying to see if you have grounds for an appeal that has a chance of success is super simple stuff. It's not like the law is complicated nor that lawyers have multiple clients and ongoing other cases. Sorry guys, I was wrong, a 14 day expiration date on Constitutional rights that has been changed from the long standing previous 'unlimited' is actually totally reasonable. Also, the government getting 30 days (because obviously they are less completant and have less resources with only the full weight of the United States Government behind them) is also reasonable. My bad.
- staticman2 3y ago
  "Not all counsel is willing to file an appeal as it tends to upset the local judge the lawyer goes before regularly when they 'go above the judges head' to the appeals court." So you refer the client to an attorney that specializes in appeals? I don't see this as a real issue.
  - ROTMetro 3y ago
    You have no issue with American citizens getting 14 days to exercise their right to appeal? What other Constitutional rights (the right to access the courts is a Constitutional right) have expiration dates? You have no issue with American citizens having lessor rights than Federal officials? You think 14 days is fine, then why should the Federal Government be granted 30? If the government felt 30 days was needed, why limit lowly citizens to 14 days? What other rights are you ok if we remove long standing precedent and process protections and reduce access to to a 2 week limit in the name of bureaucratic expediency?
    - yellowapple 3y ago
      To expand on this: why is it okay for the government to routinely ignore defendants' rights to a speedy trial while the government simultaneously demands an ungranted right to a speedy appeal?
    - staticman2 3y ago
      I have no issue with an attorney being scared to appeal a decision, and referring the client to a different attorney.
  - anigbrowl 3y ago
    I'm gonna guess you've never been in legal jeopardy, or flat broke, as many criminal defendants are.
anigbrowl 3y ago
While it's often said that 'a person who represents themselves has a fool for a lawyer', one certainly shouldn't be penalized for trying to care of one's own paperwork. Is there a rational reason not to have basic things like a photocopier and mail franking machine available for people using a prison law library? I don't see one.

Aren't you cherry picking cases where the defendant chose to represent himself? Otherwise wouldn't their legal council handle the timely filing of an appeal?

by avar 3y ago

Aren't you cherry picking cases where the defendant chose to represent himself? Otherwise wouldn't their legal council handle the timely filing of an appeal?

webnrrd2k 3y ago

So... people who represent themselves have no right to equal justice? Or just that they should need to clear an absurdly high bar?

avar 3y ago
I'm not saying the American justice system doesn't suck. Just that the GP's story might start with "after explicitly refusing the services of their public defender, who'd normally be tasked with filing the paperwork for an appeal....". It also sucks that people literally starve due to poverty, but if you're starving after explicitly refusing food stamps your story's going to sound very fun different.

ROTMetro 3y ago

Sorry for misunderstanding of what access to Constitutional rights mean in the United States. Thanks for clearing that up. 14 days to excursive your rights does seem totally reasonable now that you have clarified. Not all counsel is willing to file an appeal as it tends to upset the local judge the lawyer goes before regularly when they 'go above the judges head' to the appeals court. Not everyone wants to use the same lawyer that just lost to do their appeal. 14 days to get new counsel, get them to understand your case, all while going through the process of being shipped to your final place of incarceration actually is reasonable, what was I thinking? After spending $250,000 on a trial, getting resources together while in prison to try and appeal should totally just take 14 days. (lawyers, funnily, ask for a pretty large chunk up front). Processing a judge's ruling and trying to see if you have grounds for an appeal that has a chance of success is super simple stuff. It's not like the law is complicated nor that lawyers have multiple clients and ongoing other cases. Sorry guys, I was wrong, a 14 day expiration date on Constitutional rights that has been changed from the long standing previous 'unlimited' is actually totally reasonable. Also, the government getting 30 days (because obviously they are less completant and have less resources with only the full weight of the United States Government behind them) is also reasonable. My bad.

staticman2 3y ago
"Not all counsel is willing to file an appeal as it tends to upset the local judge the lawyer goes before regularly when they 'go above the judges head' to the appeals court." So you refer the client to an attorney that specializes in appeals? I don't see this as a real issue.
- ROTMetro 3y ago
  You have no issue with American citizens getting 14 days to exercise their right to appeal? What other Constitutional rights (the right to access the courts is a Constitutional right) have expiration dates? You have no issue with American citizens having lessor rights than Federal officials? You think 14 days is fine, then why should the Federal Government be granted 30? If the government felt 30 days was needed, why limit lowly citizens to 14 days? What other rights are you ok if we remove long standing precedent and process protections and reduce access to to a 2 week limit in the name of bureaucratic expediency?
  - yellowapple 3y ago
    To expand on this: why is it okay for the government to routinely ignore defendants' rights to a speedy trial while the government simultaneously demands an ungranted right to a speedy appeal?
  - staticman2 3y ago
    I have no issue with an attorney being scared to appeal a decision, and referring the client to a different attorney.
- anigbrowl 3y ago
  I'm gonna guess you've never been in legal jeopardy, or flat broke, as many criminal defendants are.

anigbrowl 3y ago

While it's often said that 'a person who represents themselves has a fool for a lawyer', one certainly shouldn't be penalized for trying to care of one's own paperwork. Is there a rational reason not to have basic things like a photocopier and mail franking machine available for people using a prison law library? I don't see one.