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The Netherlands is the second largest food exporter in the world. And we are a small nation. Farms account for over half of all nitrogen emissions though. We n

by iruoy 3y ago

The Netherlands is the second largest food exporter in the world. And we are a small nation. Farms account for over half of all nitrogen emissions though. We need to make some sacrifes. Just like we did in all other sectors already. At the moment highway speeds have been lowered nationwide, building permits can't be given out and more. This is crippling a lot of sectors right now.

melling 3y ago
Does anyone have any accurate numbers for emissions of various sectors? Seems like the energy sector is by far the biggest problem: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1288181/greenhouse-gas-emissions-in-netherlands-by-sector/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1288181/greenhouse-gas-e... On an absolute scale, they rank 33rd in the world on emissions. https://www.worldometers.info/co2-emissions/co2-emissions-per-capita/ https://www.worldometers.info/co2-emissions/co2-emissions-pe...
- bouke 3y ago
  Overall industry is just single digits percentage of the total nitrogen problem: https://www.cbs.nl/nl-nl/dossier/dossier-stikstof/stikstofdepositie https://www.cbs.nl/nl-nl/dossier/dossier-stikstof/stikstofde.... But yeah Schengen apparently also applies to nitrogen. Agriculture 44.6% Foreign 31.7% Traffic 11.9% Industry & buildings 8.7% Ammonia from sea 3.0% Also note that this is separate from greenhouse emissions, the nitrogen reduction is needed to allow our nature to recover from decennia of neglect. There was a recent study showing that over 50% of our nature is in bad/poor condition, amongst the worst across the EU. In 2019 an important ruling was made against the governmental policy to deal with nitrogen. This policy is what allowed highway speeds to increase from 120 kmh to 130 kmh, residential buildings to be build and overall industry to continue. Since 2019 several additional rulings have been made that put everything on hold. For every activity that impacts nature in a negative way, the nitrogen deposits need to be offset.
Bran_son 3y ago
> The Netherlands is the second largest food exporter in the world. Irrelevant. People and housing are bigger net burdens on the environment than farms. Their location relative to human political boundaries doesn't change that. They certainly take that into account when calculating e.g. consumption-based CO2 emissions: https://ourworldindata.org/consumption-based-co2 https://ourworldindata.org/consumption-based-co2
- Teever 3y ago
  So what are you suggesting exactly, that the Dutch ban having children and expand their farms on the reclaimed residential land? Keep in mind that they are severely bottlenecked by land, so they can't do both.
  - nradov 3y ago
    Another option would be to reduce the immigration rate. I'm not Dutch and it's not my place to tell them what to do, but you're presenting a false choice. Their fertility rate is already below replacement. https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/dossier/migration-and-integration/how-many-people-immigrate-to-the-netherlands- https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/dossier/migration-and-integration/h...
scohesc 3y ago
That sounds so short-sighted. Food is arguably the second most crucial resource on earth next to fresh water for humans to exist, and the country is choosing to kneecap food production instead of developing new farming technologies to limit nitrogen emissions? It doesn't seem like the "sacrifice" that our political elites are choosing to make is worth it. Seems like we're setting up future generations (or sooner, our generations) on the path to starvation.
- hezralig 3y ago
  Hi, I am curious if this diatribe is based on the knowledge of the ratio of food production to Dutch population. Are you aware of how much food NL exports when thinking about the decision making of the aforementioned powerful elites?
  - scohesc 3y ago
    Hey, I wouldn't consider it diatribe - just general observations. I don't know exactly how much food is exported, I don't know how much nitrogen is emitted. Neither does anybody else unless they pay for access to the article or look it up in external sources, let alone be educated enough to interpret the data. I know that there's people starving right now in third world countries due to lack of supply or high cost of food. There's also a rising number of people starving in first world countries that can't afford to eat or are relying on food banks. There's an active conflict in a country that exports large amounts of grain for world consumption. It just seems very short-sighted to cut back on food production when there's likely other ways to limit nitrogen emissions - in any capacity. I'm coming from a western American/Canadian background of politics, where a majority of our representatives almost completely align with corporate interests instead of the individual. Maybe things are different in the Netherlands. I would hope that generational farming knowledge doesn't get lost by buying out these farmers. I don't like how governments have the power/rights to buy-out farmers and their land (at least, that's what I'm assuming, because I can't read the article, and it's similar to what's been proposed in other countries looking at pushing similar ideas).
  - Bran_son 3y ago
    Exported food is eaten, not burned. Hunger won't stop at borders - it's how the war in Ukraine is making food everywhere more expensive.
nradov 3y ago
Actually the Netherlands is only the sixth largest food exporter in the world. https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/the-american-food-giant-the-largest-exporter-of-food-in-the-world.html https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/the-american-food-giant-...
Dig1t 3y ago
Why does the Netherlands have to make such deep sacrifices?
- interactivecode 3y ago
  Because we didn’t do shit to address our climate emissions for the last decade(s)
diogocp 3y ago
I don't understand the reasoning here. People still need to eat, so that food will still be grown—somewhere else—and the nitrogen will still be emitted—somewhere else. So the net impact on global nitrogen emissions should be zero. It seems to me that all this is doing is making some poorly thought-out national emissions statistics/targets look better.
- bobs_salsa 3y ago
  You're forgetting the impact of getting the exported food to its destination so theres potential to reduce the over all footprint of food. Secondly, having it be more distributed would also reduce the concentration of nitrogen at a local level (which doesnt have to be said the inpact it has on the local environment). So all in all its actually a relatively sound plan, how the Dutch government is going about it is maybe another story. But the fact still stands that this centralised agriculture system is just environmentally inefficien.
justinclift 3y ago
Aren't Netherlands farms generally very efficient? To the point where shutting down some farms will mean the new ones (in other countries) then opened to make up for it are almost guaranteed to be less efficient? If that's the case, then the concept seems kind of... dumb? :)

by iruoy 3y ago

melling 3y ago

Does anyone have any accurate numbers for emissions of various sectors? Seems like the energy sector is by far the biggest problem: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1288181/greenhouse-gas-emissions-in-netherlands-by-sector/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1288181/greenhouse-gas-e... On an absolute scale, they rank 33rd in the world on emissions. https://www.worldometers.info/co2-emissions/co2-emissions-per-capita/ https://www.worldometers.info/co2-emissions/co2-emissions-pe...

bouke 3y ago
Overall industry is just single digits percentage of the total nitrogen problem: https://www.cbs.nl/nl-nl/dossier/dossier-stikstof/stikstofdepositie https://www.cbs.nl/nl-nl/dossier/dossier-stikstof/stikstofde.... But yeah Schengen apparently also applies to nitrogen. Agriculture 44.6% Foreign 31.7% Traffic 11.9% Industry & buildings 8.7% Ammonia from sea 3.0% Also note that this is separate from greenhouse emissions, the nitrogen reduction is needed to allow our nature to recover from decennia of neglect. There was a recent study showing that over 50% of our nature is in bad/poor condition, amongst the worst across the EU. In 2019 an important ruling was made against the governmental policy to deal with nitrogen. This policy is what allowed highway speeds to increase from 120 kmh to 130 kmh, residential buildings to be build and overall industry to continue. Since 2019 several additional rulings have been made that put everything on hold. For every activity that impacts nature in a negative way, the nitrogen deposits need to be offset.

Bran_son 3y ago

> The Netherlands is the second largest food exporter in the world. Irrelevant. People and housing are bigger net burdens on the environment than farms. Their location relative to human political boundaries doesn't change that. They certainly take that into account when calculating e.g. consumption-based CO2 emissions: https://ourworldindata.org/consumption-based-co2 https://ourworldindata.org/consumption-based-co2

Teever 3y ago
So what are you suggesting exactly, that the Dutch ban having children and expand their farms on the reclaimed residential land? Keep in mind that they are severely bottlenecked by land, so they can't do both.
- nradov 3y ago
  Another option would be to reduce the immigration rate. I'm not Dutch and it's not my place to tell them what to do, but you're presenting a false choice. Their fertility rate is already below replacement. https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/dossier/migration-and-integration/how-many-people-immigrate-to-the-netherlands- https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/dossier/migration-and-integration/h...

scohesc 3y ago

That sounds so short-sighted. Food is arguably the second most crucial resource on earth next to fresh water for humans to exist, and the country is choosing to kneecap food production instead of developing new farming technologies to limit nitrogen emissions? It doesn't seem like the "sacrifice" that our political elites are choosing to make is worth it. Seems like we're setting up future generations (or sooner, our generations) on the path to starvation.

hezralig 3y ago
Hi, I am curious if this diatribe is based on the knowledge of the ratio of food production to Dutch population. Are you aware of how much food NL exports when thinking about the decision making of the aforementioned powerful elites?
- scohesc 3y ago
  Hey, I wouldn't consider it diatribe - just general observations. I don't know exactly how much food is exported, I don't know how much nitrogen is emitted. Neither does anybody else unless they pay for access to the article or look it up in external sources, let alone be educated enough to interpret the data. I know that there's people starving right now in third world countries due to lack of supply or high cost of food. There's also a rising number of people starving in first world countries that can't afford to eat or are relying on food banks. There's an active conflict in a country that exports large amounts of grain for world consumption. It just seems very short-sighted to cut back on food production when there's likely other ways to limit nitrogen emissions - in any capacity. I'm coming from a western American/Canadian background of politics, where a majority of our representatives almost completely align with corporate interests instead of the individual. Maybe things are different in the Netherlands. I would hope that generational farming knowledge doesn't get lost by buying out these farmers. I don't like how governments have the power/rights to buy-out farmers and their land (at least, that's what I'm assuming, because I can't read the article, and it's similar to what's been proposed in other countries looking at pushing similar ideas).
- Bran_son 3y ago
  Exported food is eaten, not burned. Hunger won't stop at borders - it's how the war in Ukraine is making food everywhere more expensive.

nradov 3y ago

Actually the Netherlands is only the sixth largest food exporter in the world. https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/the-american-food-giant-the-largest-exporter-of-food-in-the-world.html https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/the-american-food-giant-...

Dig1t 3y ago

Why does the Netherlands have to make such deep sacrifices?

interactivecode 3y ago
Because we didn’t do shit to address our climate emissions for the last decade(s)

diogocp 3y ago

I don't understand the reasoning here. People still need to eat, so that food will still be grown—somewhere else—and the nitrogen will still be emitted—somewhere else. So the net impact on global nitrogen emissions should be zero. It seems to me that all this is doing is making some poorly thought-out national emissions statistics/targets look better.

bobs_salsa 3y ago
You're forgetting the impact of getting the exported food to its destination so theres potential to reduce the over all footprint of food. Secondly, having it be more distributed would also reduce the concentration of nitrogen at a local level (which doesnt have to be said the inpact it has on the local environment). So all in all its actually a relatively sound plan, how the Dutch government is going about it is maybe another story. But the fact still stands that this centralised agriculture system is just environmentally inefficien.

justinclift 3y ago

Aren't Netherlands farms generally very efficient? To the point where shutting down some farms will mean the new ones (in other countries) then opened to make up for it are almost guaranteed to be less efficient? If that's the case, then the concept seems kind of... dumb? :)