3 ms·

I'd seen various Apogee games like Catacombs and Ken's Labyrinth and Ultima Underworld (some might have been released after Wolf3D). Wolf3Dwas MUCH faster, and

by nailer 4y ago

I'd seen various Apogee games like Catacombs and Ken's Labyrinth and Ultima Underworld (some might have been released after Wolf3D). Wolf3Dwas MUCH faster, and had AMAZING sound design if you had a sound card, but what shocked me was DOOM. I was thinking recently about where exactly I was - in both physical space and in Doom 2.5 space - when Doom shocked me. And it's to do with the very beginning of E1M1. Player start in Doom's E1M1 makes it look like Wolf 3D for just a moment. All the walls you can see are are right angles, there's not much verticality: https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.78eb767e50af435112fea3ffb5ac8aee https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.78eb767e50af435112fea3ffb5ac8aee And then you turn left GO UP SOME STAIRS AND THERE'S A WINDOW. Or right and there's ANOTHER MASSIVE WINDOW AND IT LOOKS LIKE YOU CAN GO OUTSIDE. Then there's computers and glowing nuclear waste. Wold3D was a great Nazi-themed maze game, but it was Doom where you felt like you were in a place. I hope Carmack sees this (and Romero too but I don't think he's on HN).

notahacker 4y ago
Yeah. Wolfenstein 3D was very playable, but the levels were essentially a 2D maze. Doom actually felt like a 3D world
- mysterydip 4y ago
  Interestingly, doom is also 2D, in the sense that there are no level-over-level portions. The map design was pretty clever to hide this in some areas.
  - giobox 4y ago
    Crucially it supported walls intersecting at angles other than 90 degrees though! Just having walls at arbitrary angles to one another allows Dooms worlds to look so much more interesting.
  - bombcar 4y ago
    It added floor heights which make it 2.5D as it’s sometimes called. There’s also no aiming up or down; but it feels so natural with the level design that you don’t notice.
cwillu 4y ago
The link after “there's not much verticality” appears to be broken
thanatos519 4y ago
I also remember exactly where I was, playing a leaked version with no sound. Even without sound it was amazing. Once it was released, we played it in the dorm via IPX-over-parallel cable going between rooms via the windows. What I most vividly remember is the first time I saw an elevator come down with a figure I had never seen before ... the space marine, the guy in the other room! Then I got a rocket in the face.
- giobox 4y ago
  > playing a leaked version with no sound Doom was shareware - it almost goes without saying we all played a copied version. Thinking on it, I don't know anyone who actually paid to get the full game, I miss the floppy cloning days.
bryanlarsen 4y ago
I'd guess that the reason you think this way is because you're younger than I am. I wrote my first game in 1987 and so thought I had a basic understanding of how games were made and designed. Until Wolf3D came out. It blew me away on 2 different levels -- from a technical perspective and design wise on how they created immersion at a level never seen before. Wolf3D was the first game for me where jump scares were a big part of the game. Doom did all of that much better. But that just confirmed my belief that Carmack was a freaking wizard who could do anything.
- hnlmorg 4y ago
  I know what you mean about jump scares in Wolf3D. That first boss with the chain guns, I nearly shit myself when he first appeared. People keep calling Wolf3D a maze game but the level design worked well.
AndrewStephens 4y ago
It is impossible to overstate just how astounding Doom was when it was released. I had heard people talking about Doom for a few weeks but didn't know anyone with a fast enough PC to actually run it. Then I found that a friend of a friend with a 486DX had gotten a copy from somewhere so we all went around to see it. Your description is exactly correct. I still remember the amazement when we realized that you could go up the stairs. Managing to find the secret doors and actually go outside elicited gasps. I am not sure that Dooms level design has ever been beaten in terms of how elements are introduced to the player.
- bombcar 4y ago
  Doom was amazing with the level design - it wasn’t until almost a year later when I started playing with the editors that I realized there was a limitation-you couldn’t ever be on a second floor above another place you could be.
- microtonal 4y ago
  It is impossible to overstate just how astounding Doom was when it was released. 100%. We had a 386SX-25 with 2MB RAM and there were two things that were just out that I couldn't run: Slackware Linux and DOOM. I took DOOM to my uncle at a birthday, since I knew he had a more powerful machine. I started up DOOM and I was shocked, I just couldn't believe what I was seeing. It was just so otherworldly. I never had the same feeling with earlier and later advances (though Quake was really nice). I was 11 or 12 and immediately after that I started lobbying my parents to get 2MB extra memory. Lots of fun DOOM (and Linux) hours followed.
  - mobilio 4y ago
    Same here! SX with 2MB Ram. But... one day i learn that you can make "swap file" on DOS4GW just like on Windows. And i make it! Opening game, menu and first level screen took ~30 mins.

by nailer 4y ago

notahacker 4y ago

Yeah. Wolfenstein 3D was very playable, but the levels were essentially a 2D maze. Doom actually felt like a 3D world

mysterydip 4y ago
Interestingly, doom is also 2D, in the sense that there are no level-over-level portions. The map design was pretty clever to hide this in some areas.
- giobox 4y ago
  Crucially it supported walls intersecting at angles other than 90 degrees though! Just having walls at arbitrary angles to one another allows Dooms worlds to look so much more interesting.
- bombcar 4y ago
  It added floor heights which make it 2.5D as it’s sometimes called. There’s also no aiming up or down; but it feels so natural with the level design that you don’t notice.

cwillu 4y ago

The link after “there's not much verticality” appears to be broken

thanatos519 4y ago

I also remember exactly where I was, playing a leaked version with no sound. Even without sound it was amazing. Once it was released, we played it in the dorm via IPX-over-parallel cable going between rooms via the windows. What I most vividly remember is the first time I saw an elevator come down with a figure I had never seen before ... the space marine, the guy in the other room! Then I got a rocket in the face.

giobox 4y ago
> playing a leaked version with no sound Doom was shareware - it almost goes without saying we all played a copied version. Thinking on it, I don't know anyone who actually paid to get the full game, I miss the floppy cloning days.

bryanlarsen 4y ago

I'd guess that the reason you think this way is because you're younger than I am. I wrote my first game in 1987 and so thought I had a basic understanding of how games were made and designed. Until Wolf3D came out. It blew me away on 2 different levels -- from a technical perspective and design wise on how they created immersion at a level never seen before. Wolf3D was the first game for me where jump scares were a big part of the game. Doom did all of that much better. But that just confirmed my belief that Carmack was a freaking wizard who could do anything.

hnlmorg 4y ago
I know what you mean about jump scares in Wolf3D. That first boss with the chain guns, I nearly shit myself when he first appeared. People keep calling Wolf3D a maze game but the level design worked well.

AndrewStephens 4y ago

It is impossible to overstate just how astounding Doom was when it was released. I had heard people talking about Doom for a few weeks but didn't know anyone with a fast enough PC to actually run it. Then I found that a friend of a friend with a 486DX had gotten a copy from somewhere so we all went around to see it. Your description is exactly correct. I still remember the amazement when we realized that you could go up the stairs. Managing to find the secret doors and actually go outside elicited gasps. I am not sure that Dooms level design has ever been beaten in terms of how elements are introduced to the player.

bombcar 4y ago
Doom was amazing with the level design - it wasn’t until almost a year later when I started playing with the editors that I realized there was a limitation-you couldn’t ever be on a second floor above another place you could be.
microtonal 4y ago
It is impossible to overstate just how astounding Doom was when it was released. 100%. We had a 386SX-25 with 2MB RAM and there were two things that were just out that I couldn't run: Slackware Linux and DOOM. I took DOOM to my uncle at a birthday, since I knew he had a more powerful machine. I started up DOOM and I was shocked, I just couldn't believe what I was seeing. It was just so otherworldly. I never had the same feeling with earlier and later advances (though Quake was really nice). I was 11 or 12 and immediately after that I started lobbying my parents to get 2MB extra memory. Lots of fun DOOM (and Linux) hours followed.
- mobilio 4y ago
  Same here! SX with 2MB Ram. But... one day i learn that you can make "swap file" on DOS4GW just like on Windows. And i make it! Opening game, menu and first level screen took ~30 mins.