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Something is fishy: [1] - SpaceX Accuses Europe's Ariane Of Unfair Competition [2] - Europe eyes Musk’s SpaceX to replace Russian rockets I feel like EU's in

Something is fishy: [1] - SpaceX Accuses Europe's Ariane Of Unfair Competition [2] - Europe eyes Musk’s SpaceX to replace Russian rockets I feel like EU's industry is being held back on purpose Yet SpaceX benefits lot of subsidies from the US government, as well as Tesla, hmm, methinking [1] - https://worldcrunch.com/business-finance/exclusive-spacex-accuses-europe39s-ariane-of-unfair-competition https://worldcrunch.com/business-finance/exclusive-spacex-ac... [2] - https://www.cnbc.com/2022/08/12/europe-eyes-musks-spacex-to-replace-russian-rockets.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/08/12/europe-eyes-musks-spacex-to-...

lyu07282 3y ago
EU has been self-sabotaging for decades, but it usually is just caused by economic liberalism / pragmatism. Although there is of course a strong connection between european leadership and the "Atlantik Bruecke" (atlantic bridge) which is an extremely powerful and influential atlanticist organization, it isn't always failing in favor of US economic interests. Germany did surrender its advantage in solar energy technology to China for example, there is no need for any explanation other than (neoliberal) ideology and incompetence. https://www.cleanenergywire.org/news/last-major-german-solar-cell-maker-surrenders-chinese-competition https://www.cleanenergywire.org/news/last-major-german-solar...
- imtringued 3y ago
  This reminds me that the EU follows neoclassical economics much closer than the US. https://unherd.com/2021/11/the-cruelty-of-eu-austerity/ https://unherd.com/2021/11/the-cruelty-of-eu-austerity/ Meanwhile when you read e.g. some of the extremist opinions like mises.org blog posts, apparently Europe is infested with socialism and anti-capitalism and isn't doing enough. I mean geez. Greece did the hardest austerity program in history, with possibly the fastest collapse of a growing economy. It used to grow 5% a year during the corruption years, during which people accused Greece of excessive borrowing to pay pension funds and other non productive spending. Now that they did the responsible thing GDP dropped by 50% and GDP growth has stagnated and the debt level is even higher than before as a percentage of GDP. This obviously makes "proper capitalism" look bad to citizens and now you can simply accuse them of being "socialists" who ruined their own country. Great track record. It kind of reminds me of horseshoe theory. Extreme communists and capitalists are more alike to each other than to the center. Communists that fail to achieve their dreams go and hunt the capitalists. Capitalists that fail to achieve their dreams hunt socialists. I don't know if you can call it pragmatism. It would be economic pragmatism if you try to take the best ideas and combine them into something that actually works.
- WhereIsTheTruth 3y ago
  I'm not talking about that, Ariane is still a thing, it's the expectation that comes from the US that they should instead fund SpaceX and give up their industry, it's different, and that's what I find fishy The comments here doesn't help
  - imtringued 3y ago
    I don't understand it either. The James Webb telescope is a good argument. SpaceX wasn't around when it was being designed. SpaceX managed to flunk their latest launch with a crappy launchpad. They are the ones that are still behind so I don't know why anyone would bet on them for any long term mission. The current "rocket mix" appears to be healthy. Like a stock portfolio that keeps 40% of its value in bonds and only 60% in risky assets. You can't drop the bonds and expect to get a better portfolio performance.
panick21_ 3y ago
Your just spouting ArianeGroup propaganda. They can't win technically so they have to convince the ignorant and politicians that its not their fault. AraineGroup spend like 5 years screaming about unfair competition and at some point SpaceX was sick of it and returned the favor [2]. But SpaceX never really cared much because they hardly see ArianeGroup as competition. They were just sick of their insesent public statements and lies that they were spouting about SpaceX. There is a reason ArianeGroup never tried to bring any of this before WTO, because they knew they would lose and had no ground to stand on. > I feel like EU's industry is being held back on purpose Yes by incompetent ArianeGroup monopoly. > Yet SpaceX benefits lot of subsidies from the US government Government funding for Falcon 9, 300M$. Government funding for Ariane 6 5B$. How unfair of the US. SpaceX isn't 'eyeing' to replace Russian rockets. They have been doing that for decades, first with Proton. Now with Soyuz. OneWeb launches have already flown on SpaceX multiple times and a few other will follow.
- WhereIsTheTruth 3y ago
  Propaganda? eh c'mon let's not bring conspiracy theories > Yes by incompetent ArianeGroup monopoly. Incompetent? what kind of propaganda is that? Shall i remind you who was scared to launch James Webb telescope? and who successfully did? What about Artemis? NASA ain't candid either :) Why would the US ban Chinese 5G, they don't have it themselves? Sometimes it is about maintaining sovereignty and building your own industry You can't just rely on foreigners, look what happens for the green transition, both the EU/US are stuck Falcon 9? what about everything else? you are being disingenuous on purpose Another one: https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/07/will-the-ukraine-war-force-esa-to-pass-on-arianespace-use-spacex/ https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/07/will-the-ukraine-war... Whos spreading propaganda?
  - panick21_ 3y ago
    > Propaganda? eh c'mon let's not bring conspiracy theories You can call if 'PR' if you want to make yourself feel better. But its the same thing. Its representatives of a company making lots of false public statements. To mislead people who don't know better. > Shall i remind you who was scared to launch James Webb telescope? LITERALLY NOBODY. All this comment does is reveal that you don't know anything about the space industry. > and who successfully did? Funding the launch was part of ESA investment into the James Webb project. NASA always partnered with other countries on big projects and they do different parts. In the case of James Webb Europe was to provide launch and therefore Europe picked the launch vehicle, obviously the picked Ariane 5. NASA has certification for launch vehicles, and there are different levels. To launch the most expensive science mission, such as James Webb, you need the highest level of certification NASA has. When a launch vehicle was started to be planned for both Atlas 5, Delta 4 and Delta 4 Heavy had the necessary certification. I assume only D4H would have the required power (but I'm not certain on that). So had launch not been assigned to ESA, James Webb would have been launched on Delta 4 Heavy. And ULA would of course not have been 'afraid' to launch it, as they have launched most major NASA missions of the last couple decades. Falcon 9 has achieved this same certification, I don't remember when exactly, late 2010s. So SpaceX, if something like James Webb would be competing for that missions. In fact currently its the only rocket that is not sold out with that certification. Falcon Heavy also has this certification and will launch things like Europa Clipper. The idea that SpaceX or ULA were to 'afraid' is so moronically dumb that I can't even fathom where you got this absurd idea from. After that the rest of your post is just whataboutism that has nothing to with my correction to your original comment. > Whos spreading propaganda? Not me, almost everything I said is plain fact. The only thing that is questionable is if 'incompetent' is the right word to describe ArianeGroup. Maybe that word is to harsh, replace that word with 'noncompetitive'.

lyu07282 3y ago

EU has been self-sabotaging for decades, but it usually is just caused by economic liberalism / pragmatism. Although there is of course a strong connection between european leadership and the "Atlantik Bruecke" (atlantic bridge) which is an extremely powerful and influential atlanticist organization, it isn't always failing in favor of US economic interests. Germany did surrender its advantage in solar energy technology to China for example, there is no need for any explanation other than (neoliberal) ideology and incompetence. https://www.cleanenergywire.org/news/last-major-german-solar-cell-maker-surrenders-chinese-competition https://www.cleanenergywire.org/news/last-major-german-solar...

imtringued 3y ago
This reminds me that the EU follows neoclassical economics much closer than the US. https://unherd.com/2021/11/the-cruelty-of-eu-austerity/ https://unherd.com/2021/11/the-cruelty-of-eu-austerity/ Meanwhile when you read e.g. some of the extremist opinions like mises.org blog posts, apparently Europe is infested with socialism and anti-capitalism and isn't doing enough. I mean geez. Greece did the hardest austerity program in history, with possibly the fastest collapse of a growing economy. It used to grow 5% a year during the corruption years, during which people accused Greece of excessive borrowing to pay pension funds and other non productive spending. Now that they did the responsible thing GDP dropped by 50% and GDP growth has stagnated and the debt level is even higher than before as a percentage of GDP. This obviously makes "proper capitalism" look bad to citizens and now you can simply accuse them of being "socialists" who ruined their own country. Great track record. It kind of reminds me of horseshoe theory. Extreme communists and capitalists are more alike to each other than to the center. Communists that fail to achieve their dreams go and hunt the capitalists. Capitalists that fail to achieve their dreams hunt socialists. I don't know if you can call it pragmatism. It would be economic pragmatism if you try to take the best ideas and combine them into something that actually works.
WhereIsTheTruth 3y ago
I'm not talking about that, Ariane is still a thing, it's the expectation that comes from the US that they should instead fund SpaceX and give up their industry, it's different, and that's what I find fishy The comments here doesn't help
- imtringued 3y ago
  I don't understand it either. The James Webb telescope is a good argument. SpaceX wasn't around when it was being designed. SpaceX managed to flunk their latest launch with a crappy launchpad. They are the ones that are still behind so I don't know why anyone would bet on them for any long term mission. The current "rocket mix" appears to be healthy. Like a stock portfolio that keeps 40% of its value in bonds and only 60% in risky assets. You can't drop the bonds and expect to get a better portfolio performance.

panick21_ 3y ago

Your just spouting ArianeGroup propaganda. They can't win technically so they have to convince the ignorant and politicians that its not their fault. AraineGroup spend like 5 years screaming about unfair competition and at some point SpaceX was sick of it and returned the favor [2]. But SpaceX never really cared much because they hardly see ArianeGroup as competition. They were just sick of their insesent public statements and lies that they were spouting about SpaceX. There is a reason ArianeGroup never tried to bring any of this before WTO, because they knew they would lose and had no ground to stand on. > I feel like EU's industry is being held back on purpose Yes by incompetent ArianeGroup monopoly. > Yet SpaceX benefits lot of subsidies from the US government Government funding for Falcon 9, 300M$. Government funding for Ariane 6 5B$. How unfair of the US. SpaceX isn't 'eyeing' to replace Russian rockets. They have been doing that for decades, first with Proton. Now with Soyuz. OneWeb launches have already flown on SpaceX multiple times and a few other will follow.

WhereIsTheTruth 3y ago
Propaganda? eh c'mon let's not bring conspiracy theories > Yes by incompetent ArianeGroup monopoly. Incompetent? what kind of propaganda is that? Shall i remind you who was scared to launch James Webb telescope? and who successfully did? What about Artemis? NASA ain't candid either :) Why would the US ban Chinese 5G, they don't have it themselves? Sometimes it is about maintaining sovereignty and building your own industry You can't just rely on foreigners, look what happens for the green transition, both the EU/US are stuck Falcon 9? what about everything else? you are being disingenuous on purpose Another one: https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/07/will-the-ukraine-war-force-esa-to-pass-on-arianespace-use-spacex/ https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/07/will-the-ukraine-war... Whos spreading propaganda?
- panick21_ 3y ago
  > Propaganda? eh c'mon let's not bring conspiracy theories You can call if 'PR' if you want to make yourself feel better. But its the same thing. Its representatives of a company making lots of false public statements. To mislead people who don't know better. > Shall i remind you who was scared to launch James Webb telescope? LITERALLY NOBODY. All this comment does is reveal that you don't know anything about the space industry. > and who successfully did? Funding the launch was part of ESA investment into the James Webb project. NASA always partnered with other countries on big projects and they do different parts. In the case of James Webb Europe was to provide launch and therefore Europe picked the launch vehicle, obviously the picked Ariane 5. NASA has certification for launch vehicles, and there are different levels. To launch the most expensive science mission, such as James Webb, you need the highest level of certification NASA has. When a launch vehicle was started to be planned for both Atlas 5, Delta 4 and Delta 4 Heavy had the necessary certification. I assume only D4H would have the required power (but I'm not certain on that). So had launch not been assigned to ESA, James Webb would have been launched on Delta 4 Heavy. And ULA would of course not have been 'afraid' to launch it, as they have launched most major NASA missions of the last couple decades. Falcon 9 has achieved this same certification, I don't remember when exactly, late 2010s. So SpaceX, if something like James Webb would be competing for that missions. In fact currently its the only rocket that is not sold out with that certification. Falcon Heavy also has this certification and will launch things like Europa Clipper. The idea that SpaceX or ULA were to 'afraid' is so moronically dumb that I can't even fathom where you got this absurd idea from. After that the rest of your post is just whataboutism that has nothing to with my correction to your original comment. > Whos spreading propaganda? Not me, almost everything I said is plain fact. The only thing that is questionable is if 'incompetent' is the right word to describe ArianeGroup. Maybe that word is to harsh, replace that word with 'noncompetitive'.