5 ms·

If you're literally homeless in Finland you would die during winter season? Could that be a contributing factor to the "success"?

6nf 3y ago
Is this not true in many US cities too?
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  There is a reason west coast cities are the most popular greyhound destinations.
  - IOT_Apprentice 3y ago
    In the US, many states put homelessness people on buses to western states like California. They don’t want to deal with them in their own states and then complain about how NY and especially California have dirty streets and homeless problems. The cognitive ignorance is amazing. The US has many institutional problems in sectors that impact life. No nationalized healthcare, very short training of police officers with no federal standards & longer programs as they have in the EU or other industrialized nations. We have a prison industrial complex where we imprison more people than ANY other country. And we now have a fully broken political system. Between Citizens United unleashing unlimited dark money & a 2 party system where it is more important NOT to do anything involving improving things other than tax cuts for our wealthiest. Homelessness due to unemployment, bankruptcy, medical bankruptcy or mental/psychological issues are obvious results. There is tremendous room for improvement across all areas, but there is too much institutional & corporate influence in maintaining the status quo.
    - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
      A lot of states/charities will give people open tickets so they can get “home” but they don’t verify that it’s really their home, so it’s just used to go where they want, which is often the west coast during winter or really any time. The bus is also cheap enough that you can scrounge up some money for a ticket in a few days. Vancouver is a mirror of Seattle in its homeless problem, the Canadians handle it better, but the underlying issues are very similar, so it’s not like the USA is fairly special in this regard.
- jl6 3y ago
  Possibly, but in the US it’s relatively easy to move to a city with a milder winter climate.
  - usr1106 3y ago
    Without money?
    - blkhawk 3y ago
      yes - you can walk. there are no borders in the way that would stop you. Also "no money" might mean some but very little money - enough for a bus ticket - some municipalities also solve the homeless issue by just putting them on a bus for free.
  - 6nf 3y ago
    So you're saying there's virtually no homelessness in US cities with very cold climate? Same as Finland?
- misja111 3y ago
  Yep, I guess this is part of the explanation why San Francisco has so many more homeless than, say, Seattle.
- genocidicbunny 3y ago
  This is true for many US cities, but by far not all of them, and probably not even the majority. Places like SF, Los Angeles, Houston, Miami..etc, have very mild winters that are relatively easier to deal with if you're homeless. I do question that it's largely the winter weather responsible. Even in places like Chicago, where the winter does get cold enough to quickly kill, there is still a large homeless population, so the weather alone isn't all that's at work. And similarly, Murmansk and Arkhangelsk are also very northerly cities with some serious winter weather, and there were plenty of homeless there too.
EiZei 3y ago
Freezing to death is so unspeakably painful so that you will do anything to avoid that, in the olden days homeless people would sleep in hidden maintenance spaces or near heat exhaust vents in the most extreme cases. Dying of cold is so rare that it does not even warrant it's own category in causes of death statistics here but you could argue some of the drug/alcohol deaths might cover that.
- ben_bai 3y ago
  > Freezing to death is so unspeakably painful so that you will do anything to avoid that Unfortunately not, it's cold but you can endure it, and it'll make you apathetic, and then it's over.
  - Ekaros 3y ago
    Straight up dying from cold in one go isn't worst possible way to go. Issue is when you switch between dying and not dying. Like frostbites and so on.
usr1106 3y ago
There are shelters. They are not always safe for everyone, so homeless might choose to sleep in stairways of buildings. Or recycling paper containers. There are fewer homeless people here than in many other countries. But that they wouldn't exist is just not true.
thatwasunusual 3y ago
Are you justifying having homeless people as long as the climate "allows" for it?
bugglebeetle 3y ago
More people die of hypothermia in Los Angeles than New York because New York has a right to shelter, while Los Angeles does not. So, unfortunately, your just-so story doesn’t pan out. https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-homeless-hypothermia-20190217-story.html https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-homeless-hypotherm...
eesmith 3y ago
No. The baseline weather hasn't significantly changed in the last 20 years. Before this policy there were more homeless people. One of the links is to https://www.themandarin.com.au/205500-finland-ends-homelessness-and-provides-shelter-for-all-in-need/ https://www.themandarin.com.au/205500-finland-ends-homelessn... . > In 2008, you could see tent villages and huts standing between trees in the parks of Helsinki. Homeless people had built makeshift homes in the middle of Finland’s capital city. They were exposed to harsh weather conditions. > Since the 1980s, Finnish governments had been trying to reduce homelessness with the building of short-term shelters. However, long-term homeless people were still left out. ... > But in 2008 the Finnish government introduced a new policy for the homeless with the ‘Housing First’ concept. Since then, the number of people affected by homelessness has fallen sharply.
- exDM69 3y ago
  This is not very accurate depiction. The tent camps that were common 15 years ago were victims of human trafficking by southern European gangs. They were predominantly from a certain ethnic group from two southern European countries. They are moved to other countries when the weather gets cold and come back in the spring. Street homelessness was not common before the housing first doctrine, there were shelters. Housing first is the new doctrine because it is cheaper than shelters in the long run. Someone living in the streets and shelters is unable to care for themself because they spend all their time, money and effort trying to stay warm, fed and clean. Once they have a place to sleep, cook, wash and keep their stuff safe, they have resources to address their own wellbeing. When they were sleeping rough, any resources spent on their wellbeing went down the drain. And more resources needed to address the damage to the society.
  - eesmith 3y ago
    bboygravity's proposition was that Finland doesn't have long-term homeless people because the harsh winter kills them off. This is clearly not so, because the source I gave shows long-term homeless people in Finland, who survived winter using "tent villages and huts". That over a quarter of them were immigrants [1] does not change the fact that they existed, or that almost 75% were not immigrants [2]. > Street homelessness was not common before the housing first doctrine, there were shelters. Yes, it's a good point that there are many types of homelessness, and living rough/on the streets is only one. But I think that distinction is directed more towards bboygravity? The link I gave earlier, to https://www.themandarin.com.au/205500-finland-ends-homelessness-and-provides-shelter-for-all-in-need/ https://www.themandarin.com.au/205500-finland-ends-homelessn... , mentions issues going back to the 1980s, which is well before Finland joined the EU: ] Since the 1980s, Finnish governments had been trying to reduce homelessness with the building of short-term shelters. However, long-term homeless people were still left out. There were too few emergency shelters and many affected people did not manage to get out of homelessness: they couldn’t find jobs without a housing address. And without any job, they couldn’t find a flat. It was a vicious circle. Furthermore, they had problems applying for social benefits. All in all, homeless people found themselves trapped. An emergency shelter like you mention is not a housing address needed for finding a job, thus making it harder to get out of homelessness. [1] "In 2013 there were almost 2 000 homeless immigrants in Finland. In 2013 the group was more than 25 percent of the total homelessness population." - https://helda.helsinki.fi/bitstream/handle/10138/153258/YMra_3en_2015.pdf?sequence=5&isAllowed=y https://helda.helsinki.fi/bitstream/handle/10138/153258/YMra... [2] "The shortage of small rental dwellings and very high rents in the metropolitan area, especially in Helsinki, create and sustain youth homelessness.223 Two kinds of groups can be found within youth homelessness: young people who are homeless due to their low level of income and overpriced rental housing, and young people who, in addition to housing, need support services.", same source
27fingies 3y ago
This is an article from a Toronto newspaper. Toronto gets just as cold as, if not colder than helsinki in the winter.

6nf 3y ago

Is this not true in many US cities too?

seanmcdirmid 3y ago
There is a reason west coast cities are the most popular greyhound destinations.
- IOT_Apprentice 3y ago
  In the US, many states put homelessness people on buses to western states like California. They don’t want to deal with them in their own states and then complain about how NY and especially California have dirty streets and homeless problems. The cognitive ignorance is amazing. The US has many institutional problems in sectors that impact life. No nationalized healthcare, very short training of police officers with no federal standards & longer programs as they have in the EU or other industrialized nations. We have a prison industrial complex where we imprison more people than ANY other country. And we now have a fully broken political system. Between Citizens United unleashing unlimited dark money & a 2 party system where it is more important NOT to do anything involving improving things other than tax cuts for our wealthiest. Homelessness due to unemployment, bankruptcy, medical bankruptcy or mental/psychological issues are obvious results. There is tremendous room for improvement across all areas, but there is too much institutional & corporate influence in maintaining the status quo.
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    A lot of states/charities will give people open tickets so they can get “home” but they don’t verify that it’s really their home, so it’s just used to go where they want, which is often the west coast during winter or really any time. The bus is also cheap enough that you can scrounge up some money for a ticket in a few days. Vancouver is a mirror of Seattle in its homeless problem, the Canadians handle it better, but the underlying issues are very similar, so it’s not like the USA is fairly special in this regard.
jl6 3y ago
Possibly, but in the US it’s relatively easy to move to a city with a milder winter climate.
- usr1106 3y ago
  Without money?
  - blkhawk 3y ago
    yes - you can walk. there are no borders in the way that would stop you. Also "no money" might mean some but very little money - enough for a bus ticket - some municipalities also solve the homeless issue by just putting them on a bus for free.
- 6nf 3y ago
  So you're saying there's virtually no homelessness in US cities with very cold climate? Same as Finland?
misja111 3y ago
Yep, I guess this is part of the explanation why San Francisco has so many more homeless than, say, Seattle.
genocidicbunny 3y ago
This is true for many US cities, but by far not all of them, and probably not even the majority. Places like SF, Los Angeles, Houston, Miami..etc, have very mild winters that are relatively easier to deal with if you're homeless. I do question that it's largely the winter weather responsible. Even in places like Chicago, where the winter does get cold enough to quickly kill, there is still a large homeless population, so the weather alone isn't all that's at work. And similarly, Murmansk and Arkhangelsk are also very northerly cities with some serious winter weather, and there were plenty of homeless there too.

EiZei 3y ago

Freezing to death is so unspeakably painful so that you will do anything to avoid that, in the olden days homeless people would sleep in hidden maintenance spaces or near heat exhaust vents in the most extreme cases. Dying of cold is so rare that it does not even warrant it's own category in causes of death statistics here but you could argue some of the drug/alcohol deaths might cover that.

ben_bai 3y ago
> Freezing to death is so unspeakably painful so that you will do anything to avoid that Unfortunately not, it's cold but you can endure it, and it'll make you apathetic, and then it's over.
- Ekaros 3y ago
  Straight up dying from cold in one go isn't worst possible way to go. Issue is when you switch between dying and not dying. Like frostbites and so on.

usr1106 3y ago

There are shelters. They are not always safe for everyone, so homeless might choose to sleep in stairways of buildings. Or recycling paper containers. There are fewer homeless people here than in many other countries. But that they wouldn't exist is just not true.

thatwasunusual 3y ago

Are you justifying having homeless people as long as the climate "allows" for it?

bugglebeetle 3y ago

More people die of hypothermia in Los Angeles than New York because New York has a right to shelter, while Los Angeles does not. So, unfortunately, your just-so story doesn’t pan out. https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-homeless-hypothermia-20190217-story.html https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-homeless-hypotherm...

eesmith 3y ago

No. The baseline weather hasn't significantly changed in the last 20 years. Before this policy there were more homeless people. One of the links is to https://www.themandarin.com.au/205500-finland-ends-homelessness-and-provides-shelter-for-all-in-need/ https://www.themandarin.com.au/205500-finland-ends-homelessn... . > In 2008, you could see tent villages and huts standing between trees in the parks of Helsinki. Homeless people had built makeshift homes in the middle of Finland’s capital city. They were exposed to harsh weather conditions. > Since the 1980s, Finnish governments had been trying to reduce homelessness with the building of short-term shelters. However, long-term homeless people were still left out. ... > But in 2008 the Finnish government introduced a new policy for the homeless with the ‘Housing First’ concept. Since then, the number of people affected by homelessness has fallen sharply.

exDM69 3y ago
This is not very accurate depiction. The tent camps that were common 15 years ago were victims of human trafficking by southern European gangs. They were predominantly from a certain ethnic group from two southern European countries. They are moved to other countries when the weather gets cold and come back in the spring. Street homelessness was not common before the housing first doctrine, there were shelters. Housing first is the new doctrine because it is cheaper than shelters in the long run. Someone living in the streets and shelters is unable to care for themself because they spend all their time, money and effort trying to stay warm, fed and clean. Once they have a place to sleep, cook, wash and keep their stuff safe, they have resources to address their own wellbeing. When they were sleeping rough, any resources spent on their wellbeing went down the drain. And more resources needed to address the damage to the society.
- eesmith 3y ago
  bboygravity's proposition was that Finland doesn't have long-term homeless people because the harsh winter kills them off. This is clearly not so, because the source I gave shows long-term homeless people in Finland, who survived winter using "tent villages and huts". That over a quarter of them were immigrants [1] does not change the fact that they existed, or that almost 75% were not immigrants [2]. > Street homelessness was not common before the housing first doctrine, there were shelters. Yes, it's a good point that there are many types of homelessness, and living rough/on the streets is only one. But I think that distinction is directed more towards bboygravity? The link I gave earlier, to https://www.themandarin.com.au/205500-finland-ends-homelessness-and-provides-shelter-for-all-in-need/ https://www.themandarin.com.au/205500-finland-ends-homelessn... , mentions issues going back to the 1980s, which is well before Finland joined the EU: ] Since the 1980s, Finnish governments had been trying to reduce homelessness with the building of short-term shelters. However, long-term homeless people were still left out. There were too few emergency shelters and many affected people did not manage to get out of homelessness: they couldn’t find jobs without a housing address. And without any job, they couldn’t find a flat. It was a vicious circle. Furthermore, they had problems applying for social benefits. All in all, homeless people found themselves trapped. An emergency shelter like you mention is not a housing address needed for finding a job, thus making it harder to get out of homelessness. [1] "In 2013 there were almost 2 000 homeless immigrants in Finland. In 2013 the group was more than 25 percent of the total homelessness population." - https://helda.helsinki.fi/bitstream/handle/10138/153258/YMra_3en_2015.pdf?sequence=5&isAllowed=y https://helda.helsinki.fi/bitstream/handle/10138/153258/YMra... [2] "The shortage of small rental dwellings and very high rents in the metropolitan area, especially in Helsinki, create and sustain youth homelessness.223 Two kinds of groups can be found within youth homelessness: young people who are homeless due to their low level of income and overpriced rental housing, and young people who, in addition to housing, need support services.", same source

27fingies 3y ago

This is an article from a Toronto newspaper. Toronto gets just as cold as, if not colder than helsinki in the winter.