6 ms·

I disagree about being overpaid. Similar to other professions - engineering and medicine for example - we have a career which requires a dedication to constant

I disagree about being overpaid. Similar to other professions - engineering and medicine for example - we have a career which requires a dedication to constant learning. We build systems which allow companies to generate billions in revenue and deserve a slice of the pie.

InCityDreams 3y ago
>and deserve a slice of the pie. ...and deserve a fair slice of the pie.
ksaun 3y ago
I wish these companies would generate fewer billions in revenue, choosing to make their businesses more beneficial to society as a whole instead of apparently focusing on maximizing profit. It seems like all parties involved could still be quite adequately compensated. Unfortunately (in my opinion), that's not how it is. Given our reality, I think I agree with you that SWEs do deserve that slice of that pie. But I very much wish that more people placed greater priority on benefiting others/society instead.
Mistletoe 3y ago
But you have much lower education and time costs, no? >In all, it takes about eight to ten years to become a professional engineer, depending on whether you decide to get a master's degree. >Doctors must complete a four-year undergraduate program, along with four years in medical school and three to seven years in a residency program to learn the specialty they chose to pursue. In other words, it takes between 10 to 14 years to become a fully licensed doctor.
- dann0 3y ago
  I'm a marketer. I hold a Master's and a couple of Graduate Diplomas. I have a professional designation that requires constant CPD. I spend a significant amount of my time undertaking professional development. I work longer hours and can make a good case that my work has more impact than engineers, and I get paid significantly less than engineers with similar tenure. I can't see any reasonable argument that engineers are intrinsically worth more, (and I say that as a person that dropped out of Engineering to pursue other opportunities). There might be fewer (good ones) than what the market needs, and this obviously pushes salaries up.
- jrockway 3y ago
  Have you run into a lot of great software engineers that didn't spend at least that many hours working on their own projects? I don't think you could even pass an internship interview if all you did was go to class for 4 years. (Passing the classes is of course predicated on doing a lot of programming outside of class, if only to have some text files to turn in!) Most of the job training for this field comes from within. Hours, weeks, years alone with a computer. Nobody sees that, and you don't pay someone to administer it to you. But it's absolutely required.
  - Omniusaspirer 3y ago
    Are you familiar with the medical pathway in the US? Software really isn't comparable for any but maybe the absolute most extreme developers. 1) Premed - 4 year degree + easily 1-2k+ hours spent volunteering, doing research, gaining medical work experience, obtaining LOR, shadowing, MCAT prep etc. This isn't optional if you actually want any chance of being accepted. Fail to get in and you're working with a (typically) biochem bachelors as a lab tech for $12 an hour and no upward mobility outside of grad school. 2) Medical School - another 4 years of pretty much nonstop studying outside mandated classwork and clinicals. Multiple large exams that basically dictate your entire future and whether you'll be able to match (ie. actually work as a doctor ever) along the way. A few thousand fail to match each year and invested 8 years + 250k med school + 50-100k undergrad to go back to that lab tech career I mentioned at $12/hr. Keep in mind those student loans are non-dischargable through bankruptcy. 3) Residency - 3-7 years. Family Medicine is one of the least rigorous and shortest at 3 years and averages about 10k hours of on the job during that time making less than minimum wage. Surgery is more like 80+ hours/week for much longer with 28 hour shifts standard at the start (minimum, better hope you don't have to finish any work at the end). Oh and don't fuck up because you literally have lives in your hands and face multi-million dollar lawsuits if you mess up after being awake for 20 hours straight on the job. At the end of all of this and if you matched the most competitive specialties and busted your ass you might be able to make as much as a senior level SV software dev. Or you might be a pediatrician making 150k/yr if that appeals to you more than being wrist deep in someones bowels all day every day, or getting a 3 AM call to come do neurosurgery, or an urgent heart cath. Not feeling it tonight? Well someone is going to literally die if you aren't there within the next 30m- sleep well.
0zemp2c 3y ago
> we have a career which requires a dedication to constant learning 95% of that is chasing dumb fads, pop cultures, pointless shiny objects, technology fetishes
- booleandilemma 3y ago
  That's part of it, but there is truly a lot to know in software development, and while people can argue it's not on the same level as doctor, lawyer, and engineer, it's definitely a harder job than most others out there. Here's a list of the 25 most common jobs in the US according to Indeed: https://www.indeed.com/career-advice/finding-a-job/most-common-jobs-in-america https://www.indeed.com/career-advice/finding-a-job/most-comm... I will confidently say Software Developer (# 24 on the list) is a more difficult job than almost all of them.
- geraldwhen 3y ago
  Yup, but that’s the job. I have an organizational mandate to change deployment stacks every 18 months.
jason0597 3y ago
deleted
- Freedom2 3y ago
  That's literally what they said...? (that is, engineering and medicine are professions of dedicated learning)
  - jason0597 3y ago
    My apologies, I've been up for 18hrs today
- nvader 3y ago
  Perhaps it's the meaning of the word "similar" that is giving you trouble.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
JustLurking2022 3y ago
Most engineers earn nothing close to FAANG comp. Even some really great computer scientists who just don't happen to live in the silicon valley bubble don't.
- comprev 3y ago
  FWIW I'm not at FAANG level or even have a good educational background. If anything FAANG developers skew the statistics for the majority
tivert 3y ago
> Similar to other professions - engineering and medicine for example - we have a career which requires a dedication to constant learning. So do adjunct professors, and they're paid peanuts. > We build systems which allow companies to generate billions in revenue and deserve a slice of the pie. Capitalists don't care what you think you deserve. Their morality says if the labor market situation means they can get away with paying you peanuts, it's righteous for them to do so, regardless if you do things that "allow companies to generate billions in revenue." The people who care about getting people paid what they deserve will play a tiny violin for you, since most workers have it way, way worse than software engineers have it now.
dahwolf 3y ago
The thing Googlers conveniently leave out is that this multiplier effect that is seen almost nowhere else is not due to super human brilliance, it's build on the backs on all the rest of us. Our information. Our content. Typically provided for free or forcefully soaked up by surveillance tactics. You're the operator of a machine that exploits on a planetary scale. You might be awesome at operating this machine, but you don't supply the actual value that leads to those billions.
benhurmarcel 3y ago
> Similar to other professions - engineering and medicine for example Those other professions don't get paid nearly as much though

InCityDreams 3y ago

>and deserve a slice of the pie. ...and deserve a fair slice of the pie.

ksaun 3y ago

I wish these companies would generate fewer billions in revenue, choosing to make their businesses more beneficial to society as a whole instead of apparently focusing on maximizing profit. It seems like all parties involved could still be quite adequately compensated. Unfortunately (in my opinion), that's not how it is. Given our reality, I think I agree with you that SWEs do deserve that slice of that pie. But I very much wish that more people placed greater priority on benefiting others/society instead.

Mistletoe 3y ago

But you have much lower education and time costs, no? >In all, it takes about eight to ten years to become a professional engineer, depending on whether you decide to get a master's degree. >Doctors must complete a four-year undergraduate program, along with four years in medical school and three to seven years in a residency program to learn the specialty they chose to pursue. In other words, it takes between 10 to 14 years to become a fully licensed doctor.

dann0 3y ago
I'm a marketer. I hold a Master's and a couple of Graduate Diplomas. I have a professional designation that requires constant CPD. I spend a significant amount of my time undertaking professional development. I work longer hours and can make a good case that my work has more impact than engineers, and I get paid significantly less than engineers with similar tenure. I can't see any reasonable argument that engineers are intrinsically worth more, (and I say that as a person that dropped out of Engineering to pursue other opportunities). There might be fewer (good ones) than what the market needs, and this obviously pushes salaries up.
jrockway 3y ago
Have you run into a lot of great software engineers that didn't spend at least that many hours working on their own projects? I don't think you could even pass an internship interview if all you did was go to class for 4 years. (Passing the classes is of course predicated on doing a lot of programming outside of class, if only to have some text files to turn in!) Most of the job training for this field comes from within. Hours, weeks, years alone with a computer. Nobody sees that, and you don't pay someone to administer it to you. But it's absolutely required.
- Omniusaspirer 3y ago
  Are you familiar with the medical pathway in the US? Software really isn't comparable for any but maybe the absolute most extreme developers. 1) Premed - 4 year degree + easily 1-2k+ hours spent volunteering, doing research, gaining medical work experience, obtaining LOR, shadowing, MCAT prep etc. This isn't optional if you actually want any chance of being accepted. Fail to get in and you're working with a (typically) biochem bachelors as a lab tech for $12 an hour and no upward mobility outside of grad school. 2) Medical School - another 4 years of pretty much nonstop studying outside mandated classwork and clinicals. Multiple large exams that basically dictate your entire future and whether you'll be able to match (ie. actually work as a doctor ever) along the way. A few thousand fail to match each year and invested 8 years + 250k med school + 50-100k undergrad to go back to that lab tech career I mentioned at $12/hr. Keep in mind those student loans are non-dischargable through bankruptcy. 3) Residency - 3-7 years. Family Medicine is one of the least rigorous and shortest at 3 years and averages about 10k hours of on the job during that time making less than minimum wage. Surgery is more like 80+ hours/week for much longer with 28 hour shifts standard at the start (minimum, better hope you don't have to finish any work at the end). Oh and don't fuck up because you literally have lives in your hands and face multi-million dollar lawsuits if you mess up after being awake for 20 hours straight on the job. At the end of all of this and if you matched the most competitive specialties and busted your ass you might be able to make as much as a senior level SV software dev. Or you might be a pediatrician making 150k/yr if that appeals to you more than being wrist deep in someones bowels all day every day, or getting a 3 AM call to come do neurosurgery, or an urgent heart cath. Not feeling it tonight? Well someone is going to literally die if you aren't there within the next 30m- sleep well.

0zemp2c 3y ago

> we have a career which requires a dedication to constant learning 95% of that is chasing dumb fads, pop cultures, pointless shiny objects, technology fetishes

booleandilemma 3y ago
That's part of it, but there is truly a lot to know in software development, and while people can argue it's not on the same level as doctor, lawyer, and engineer, it's definitely a harder job than most others out there. Here's a list of the 25 most common jobs in the US according to Indeed: https://www.indeed.com/career-advice/finding-a-job/most-common-jobs-in-america https://www.indeed.com/career-advice/finding-a-job/most-comm... I will confidently say Software Developer (# 24 on the list) is a more difficult job than almost all of them.
geraldwhen 3y ago
Yup, but that’s the job. I have an organizational mandate to change deployment stacks every 18 months.

jason0597 3y ago

deleted

Freedom2 3y ago
That's literally what they said...? (that is, engineering and medicine are professions of dedicated learning)
- jason0597 3y ago
  My apologies, I've been up for 18hrs today
nvader 3y ago
Perhaps it's the meaning of the word "similar" that is giving you trouble.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

JustLurking2022 3y ago

Most engineers earn nothing close to FAANG comp. Even some really great computer scientists who just don't happen to live in the silicon valley bubble don't.

comprev 3y ago
FWIW I'm not at FAANG level or even have a good educational background. If anything FAANG developers skew the statistics for the majority

tivert 3y ago

> Similar to other professions - engineering and medicine for example - we have a career which requires a dedication to constant learning. So do adjunct professors, and they're paid peanuts. > We build systems which allow companies to generate billions in revenue and deserve a slice of the pie. Capitalists don't care what you think you deserve. Their morality says if the labor market situation means they can get away with paying you peanuts, it's righteous for them to do so, regardless if you do things that "allow companies to generate billions in revenue." The people who care about getting people paid what they deserve will play a tiny violin for you, since most workers have it way, way worse than software engineers have it now.

dahwolf 3y ago

The thing Googlers conveniently leave out is that this multiplier effect that is seen almost nowhere else is not due to super human brilliance, it's build on the backs on all the rest of us. Our information. Our content. Typically provided for free or forcefully soaked up by surveillance tactics. You're the operator of a machine that exploits on a planetary scale. You might be awesome at operating this machine, but you don't supply the actual value that leads to those billions.

benhurmarcel 3y ago

> Similar to other professions - engineering and medicine for example Those other professions don't get paid nearly as much though