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While I agree that CEOs are overpayed, I think the same applies to software engineers. Software Engineering has been a pay/perk bubble for years that was due fo

While I agree that CEOs are overpayed, I think the same applies to software engineers. Software Engineering has been a pay/perk bubble for years that was due for a correction, and like when Elon cut the free gourmet lunches and coffees for Twitter staff, I'm sure the Google engineers will survive. Meanwhile Google's "raters", the army of workers who do the hard work of moderating and testing Google's platforms are getting paid crumbs in comparison: https://www.npr.org/2023/03/25/1166059832/googles-ghost-workers-are-asking-for-labor-rights https://www.npr.org/2023/03/25/1166059832/googles-ghost-work...

comprev 3y ago
I disagree about being overpaid. Similar to other professions - engineering and medicine for example - we have a career which requires a dedication to constant learning. We build systems which allow companies to generate billions in revenue and deserve a slice of the pie.
- InCityDreams 3y ago
  >and deserve a slice of the pie. ...and deserve a fair slice of the pie.
- ksaun 3y ago
  I wish these companies would generate fewer billions in revenue, choosing to make their businesses more beneficial to society as a whole instead of apparently focusing on maximizing profit. It seems like all parties involved could still be quite adequately compensated. Unfortunately (in my opinion), that's not how it is. Given our reality, I think I agree with you that SWEs do deserve that slice of that pie. But I very much wish that more people placed greater priority on benefiting others/society instead.
- Mistletoe 3y ago
  But you have much lower education and time costs, no? >In all, it takes about eight to ten years to become a professional engineer, depending on whether you decide to get a master's degree. >Doctors must complete a four-year undergraduate program, along with four years in medical school and three to seven years in a residency program to learn the specialty they chose to pursue. In other words, it takes between 10 to 14 years to become a fully licensed doctor.
  - dann0 3y ago
    I'm a marketer. I hold a Master's and a couple of Graduate Diplomas. I have a professional designation that requires constant CPD. I spend a significant amount of my time undertaking professional development. I work longer hours and can make a good case that my work has more impact than engineers, and I get paid significantly less than engineers with similar tenure. I can't see any reasonable argument that engineers are intrinsically worth more, (and I say that as a person that dropped out of Engineering to pursue other opportunities). There might be fewer (good ones) than what the market needs, and this obviously pushes salaries up.
  - jrockway 3y ago
    Have you run into a lot of great software engineers that didn't spend at least that many hours working on their own projects? I don't think you could even pass an internship interview if all you did was go to class for 4 years. (Passing the classes is of course predicated on doing a lot of programming outside of class, if only to have some text files to turn in!) Most of the job training for this field comes from within. Hours, weeks, years alone with a computer. Nobody sees that, and you don't pay someone to administer it to you. But it's absolutely required.
    - Omniusaspirer 3y ago
      Are you familiar with the medical pathway in the US? Software really isn't comparable for any but maybe the absolute most extreme developers. 1) Premed - 4 year degree + easily 1-2k+ hours spent volunteering, doing research, gaining medical work experience, obtaining LOR, shadowing, MCAT prep etc. This isn't optional if you actually want any chance of being accepted. Fail to get in and you're working with a (typically) biochem bachelors as a lab tech for $12 an hour and no upward mobility outside of grad school. 2) Medical School - another 4 years of pretty much nonstop studying outside mandated classwork and clinicals. Multiple large exams that basically dictate your entire future and whether you'll be able to match (ie. actually work as a doctor ever) along the way. A few thousand fail to match each year and invested 8 years + 250k med school + 50-100k undergrad to go back to that lab tech career I mentioned at $12/hr. Keep in mind those student loans are non-dischargable through bankruptcy. 3) Residency - 3-7 years. Family Medicine is one of the least rigorous and shortest at 3 years and averages about 10k hours of on the job during that time making less than minimum wage. Surgery is more like 80+ hours/week for much longer with 28 hour shifts standard at the start (minimum, better hope you don't have to finish any work at the end). Oh and don't fuck up because you literally have lives in your hands and face multi-million dollar lawsuits if you mess up after being awake for 20 hours straight on the job. At the end of all of this and if you matched the most competitive specialties and busted your ass you might be able to make as much as a senior level SV software dev. Or you might be a pediatrician making 150k/yr if that appeals to you more than being wrist deep in someones bowels all day every day, or getting a 3 AM call to come do neurosurgery, or an urgent heart cath. Not feeling it tonight? Well someone is going to literally die if you aren't there within the next 30m- sleep well.
- 0zemp2c 3y ago
  > we have a career which requires a dedication to constant learning 95% of that is chasing dumb fads, pop cultures, pointless shiny objects, technology fetishes
  - booleandilemma 3y ago
    That's part of it, but there is truly a lot to know in software development, and while people can argue it's not on the same level as doctor, lawyer, and engineer, it's definitely a harder job than most others out there. Here's a list of the 25 most common jobs in the US according to Indeed: https://www.indeed.com/career-advice/finding-a-job/most-common-jobs-in-america https://www.indeed.com/career-advice/finding-a-job/most-comm... I will confidently say Software Developer (# 24 on the list) is a more difficult job than almost all of them.
  - geraldwhen 3y ago
    Yup, but that’s the job. I have an organizational mandate to change deployment stacks every 18 months.
- jason0597 3y ago
  deleted
  - Freedom2 3y ago
    That's literally what they said...? (that is, engineering and medicine are professions of dedicated learning)
    - jason0597 3y ago
      My apologies, I've been up for 18hrs today
  - nvader 3y ago
    Perhaps it's the meaning of the word "similar" that is giving you trouble.
  - deleted 3y ago
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  - deleted 3y ago
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- JustLurking2022 3y ago
  Most engineers earn nothing close to FAANG comp. Even some really great computer scientists who just don't happen to live in the silicon valley bubble don't.
  - comprev 3y ago
    FWIW I'm not at FAANG level or even have a good educational background. If anything FAANG developers skew the statistics for the majority
- tivert 3y ago
  > Similar to other professions - engineering and medicine for example - we have a career which requires a dedication to constant learning. So do adjunct professors, and they're paid peanuts. > We build systems which allow companies to generate billions in revenue and deserve a slice of the pie. Capitalists don't care what you think you deserve. Their morality says if the labor market situation means they can get away with paying you peanuts, it's righteous for them to do so, regardless if you do things that "allow companies to generate billions in revenue." The people who care about getting people paid what they deserve will play a tiny violin for you, since most workers have it way, way worse than software engineers have it now.
- dahwolf 3y ago
  The thing Googlers conveniently leave out is that this multiplier effect that is seen almost nowhere else is not due to super human brilliance, it's build on the backs on all the rest of us. Our information. Our content. Typically provided for free or forcefully soaked up by surveillance tactics. You're the operator of a machine that exploits on a planetary scale. You might be awesome at operating this machine, but you don't supply the actual value that leads to those billions.
- benhurmarcel 3y ago
  > Similar to other professions - engineering and medicine for example Those other professions don't get paid nearly as much though
airstrike 3y ago
People generally get paid the amount that it costs to find someone else to do their job¹ It is very easy to find someone else to be a "rater". Certainly easier than it is to find another software engineer You can argue SWE wages are inflated but comparing them to someone testing whether YouTube search returns the right results is inaccurate and feels disingenuous "Fairness" is a vague concept which nobody can agree on. It's definitely not as easily observable as, say, the marginal cost of replacing a worker --------------- 1. This also happens to be a helpful framework for establishing "value", beyond the context of labor. For instance: how much is a company worth? The amount it would cost to replace them if they were taken out of the picture
- segasaturn 3y ago
  By that logic, Sundar's pay is completely justified, as well as the pay cuts for Software Engineers, as more and more people become software engineers every day and available pool of workers continues to increase.
  - ceejayoz 3y ago
    You don’t think they could find a competent CEO for, say, $100M?
    - segasaturn 3y ago
      You don't think you could find a competent software engineer for $80k?
      - ceejayoz 3y ago
        Sure can. A race to the bottom for engineers at the same time there’s ever-increasing CEO pay is gross. That’s the point.
      - unpopular42 3y ago
        No chance if the competitor next door pays $300k
aaomidi 3y ago
Except engineers bring value. If engineers are to be paid less, then where should the profit go?
- beebeepka 3y ago
  Profits go up. Sh*t goes down.
pdntspa 3y ago
Show me another profession that can have such a dramatic impact on the bottom line where your work makes the company 100x-1000x your salary. If anything SWE are underpaid, we should be getting a slice of total business unit revenue. With my last job doing SWE for a bank, I know for a fact that my code saved the company hundreds of thousands dollars just from one project, and I know for a fact that some of my other code oversaw over a billion dollars in loan volume annually. And what do I get come review time? No salary change and a variable bonus. It's fucking bullshit. These motherfuckers are getting rich off my back and they don't even share. Even 5% of revenue split across my entire team would be a million-plus or everyone, but nooooooooo we cant have that now can we? Whatever will the pathetic shareholders ever do then???
- decafninja 3y ago
  Well, you worked at a bank. Other than a few niche roles like algo trading, banks do not pay SWEs particularly well. Nor are they particularly well respected. You play second or third fiddle to the traders. SWEs at FAANG and other top tier tech companies are at a completely different level of compensation. I don’t think they’re underpaid.
  - kevstev 3y ago
    I worked in Algo trading at a bank. Banks do not pay SWEs that work in algo trading well. I left finance to work in tech and got a 50% bump right off the bat. And I was well paid on my team- the h1s and kids out of school were not breaking 100k. I know the guy sitting in my old seat and 10 years later he is maybe getting that 50% more while I have 4xed. He works 50-60 hour weeks like I did as well and I rarely go past 45. And this was ten years ago when this stuff was the hot thing. This myth that big banks pay anyone in tech well needs to be dispelled. I worked at a few as well and they were all the same.
    - google234123 3y ago
      Algo trading and even general swe at the top places (e.g. citadel) will pay better than the top tech firms.
satao 3y ago
Maybe in the US, but around the world it us usually just a decent job. The main problem is not the engineers being overpaid, is the rampant inequality that the west has been experiencing without anyone doing anything. The situation is crazy right now. Engineers are not overpaid. The other jobs should have a better pay, while the CEOs should be paid a lot less.
- kazen44 3y ago
  Heck, from my perspective other professions are highly underpaid. I know a couple of friends who work in healthcare as medical proffesionals (nurses, doctors etc), their wages (especially of nurses) are atrocious compared to the value to society they provide.
  - satao 3y ago
    Definitely. Everybody in education and public health should be paid a looooot more.
- haliskerbas 3y ago
  I never understand why well paid SWEs feel guilty instead of realize that being able to live comfortably if you're working most of your waking day should be the baseline accepted state for society.
zapdrive 3y ago
Totally agree. Tech salary bubble is going to burst soon. As a software engineer myself, I've already started looking for a plan B.
- the_only_law 3y ago
  Found anything good? I’ve had a few ideas over the years, but they all involve expensive school I’d need an high salary to even afford.
  - zapdrive 3y ago
    I'm thinking of getting into construction. The only other classmates from high school who are making as much as me, or even more are those into real estate.
dog321 3y ago
Software engineers are the only highly paid professionals that can convince themselves they are worth less than the going market rate. Not sure i've seen this common sentiment in banking, law, medicine, real estate, or high $ sales.
com2kid 3y ago
> I think the same applies to software engineers. Software Engineering has been a pay/perk bubble for years IMHO the reason is because American tech companies are located in cities with insane costs of living. If Silicon Valley wants to save some serious money on salary, bribe and cajole state and local governments to change housing policy.
sidfthec 3y ago
The money has to go somewhere. Why don't you want it to go to the employees?
dheera 3y ago
> While I agree that CEOs are overpayed, I think the same applies to software engineers. You know who is really overpaid? Landlords. They are the reason everything in Silicon Valley is so damn expensive. I'd gladly take a pay cut if the "landlord association of america" would collectively take a pay cut of their own. That will make this place slightly more affordable. You know who else is really overpaid? A good chunk of the healthcare industry. My healthcare expenses are by far my highest money drain other than rent.
byyy 3y ago
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comprev 3y ago

I disagree about being overpaid. Similar to other professions - engineering and medicine for example - we have a career which requires a dedication to constant learning. We build systems which allow companies to generate billions in revenue and deserve a slice of the pie.

InCityDreams 3y ago
>and deserve a slice of the pie. ...and deserve a fair slice of the pie.
ksaun 3y ago
I wish these companies would generate fewer billions in revenue, choosing to make their businesses more beneficial to society as a whole instead of apparently focusing on maximizing profit. It seems like all parties involved could still be quite adequately compensated. Unfortunately (in my opinion), that's not how it is. Given our reality, I think I agree with you that SWEs do deserve that slice of that pie. But I very much wish that more people placed greater priority on benefiting others/society instead.
Mistletoe 3y ago
But you have much lower education and time costs, no? >In all, it takes about eight to ten years to become a professional engineer, depending on whether you decide to get a master's degree. >Doctors must complete a four-year undergraduate program, along with four years in medical school and three to seven years in a residency program to learn the specialty they chose to pursue. In other words, it takes between 10 to 14 years to become a fully licensed doctor.
- dann0 3y ago
  I'm a marketer. I hold a Master's and a couple of Graduate Diplomas. I have a professional designation that requires constant CPD. I spend a significant amount of my time undertaking professional development. I work longer hours and can make a good case that my work has more impact than engineers, and I get paid significantly less than engineers with similar tenure. I can't see any reasonable argument that engineers are intrinsically worth more, (and I say that as a person that dropped out of Engineering to pursue other opportunities). There might be fewer (good ones) than what the market needs, and this obviously pushes salaries up.
- jrockway 3y ago
  Have you run into a lot of great software engineers that didn't spend at least that many hours working on their own projects? I don't think you could even pass an internship interview if all you did was go to class for 4 years. (Passing the classes is of course predicated on doing a lot of programming outside of class, if only to have some text files to turn in!) Most of the job training for this field comes from within. Hours, weeks, years alone with a computer. Nobody sees that, and you don't pay someone to administer it to you. But it's absolutely required.
  - Omniusaspirer 3y ago
    Are you familiar with the medical pathway in the US? Software really isn't comparable for any but maybe the absolute most extreme developers. 1) Premed - 4 year degree + easily 1-2k+ hours spent volunteering, doing research, gaining medical work experience, obtaining LOR, shadowing, MCAT prep etc. This isn't optional if you actually want any chance of being accepted. Fail to get in and you're working with a (typically) biochem bachelors as a lab tech for $12 an hour and no upward mobility outside of grad school. 2) Medical School - another 4 years of pretty much nonstop studying outside mandated classwork and clinicals. Multiple large exams that basically dictate your entire future and whether you'll be able to match (ie. actually work as a doctor ever) along the way. A few thousand fail to match each year and invested 8 years + 250k med school + 50-100k undergrad to go back to that lab tech career I mentioned at $12/hr. Keep in mind those student loans are non-dischargable through bankruptcy. 3) Residency - 3-7 years. Family Medicine is one of the least rigorous and shortest at 3 years and averages about 10k hours of on the job during that time making less than minimum wage. Surgery is more like 80+ hours/week for much longer with 28 hour shifts standard at the start (minimum, better hope you don't have to finish any work at the end). Oh and don't fuck up because you literally have lives in your hands and face multi-million dollar lawsuits if you mess up after being awake for 20 hours straight on the job. At the end of all of this and if you matched the most competitive specialties and busted your ass you might be able to make as much as a senior level SV software dev. Or you might be a pediatrician making 150k/yr if that appeals to you more than being wrist deep in someones bowels all day every day, or getting a 3 AM call to come do neurosurgery, or an urgent heart cath. Not feeling it tonight? Well someone is going to literally die if you aren't there within the next 30m- sleep well.
0zemp2c 3y ago
> we have a career which requires a dedication to constant learning 95% of that is chasing dumb fads, pop cultures, pointless shiny objects, technology fetishes
- booleandilemma 3y ago
  That's part of it, but there is truly a lot to know in software development, and while people can argue it's not on the same level as doctor, lawyer, and engineer, it's definitely a harder job than most others out there. Here's a list of the 25 most common jobs in the US according to Indeed: https://www.indeed.com/career-advice/finding-a-job/most-common-jobs-in-america https://www.indeed.com/career-advice/finding-a-job/most-comm... I will confidently say Software Developer (# 24 on the list) is a more difficult job than almost all of them.
- geraldwhen 3y ago
  Yup, but that’s the job. I have an organizational mandate to change deployment stacks every 18 months.
jason0597 3y ago
deleted
- Freedom2 3y ago
  That's literally what they said...? (that is, engineering and medicine are professions of dedicated learning)
  - jason0597 3y ago
    My apologies, I've been up for 18hrs today
- nvader 3y ago
  Perhaps it's the meaning of the word "similar" that is giving you trouble.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
JustLurking2022 3y ago
Most engineers earn nothing close to FAANG comp. Even some really great computer scientists who just don't happen to live in the silicon valley bubble don't.
- comprev 3y ago
  FWIW I'm not at FAANG level or even have a good educational background. If anything FAANG developers skew the statistics for the majority
tivert 3y ago
> Similar to other professions - engineering and medicine for example - we have a career which requires a dedication to constant learning. So do adjunct professors, and they're paid peanuts. > We build systems which allow companies to generate billions in revenue and deserve a slice of the pie. Capitalists don't care what you think you deserve. Their morality says if the labor market situation means they can get away with paying you peanuts, it's righteous for them to do so, regardless if you do things that "allow companies to generate billions in revenue." The people who care about getting people paid what they deserve will play a tiny violin for you, since most workers have it way, way worse than software engineers have it now.
dahwolf 3y ago
The thing Googlers conveniently leave out is that this multiplier effect that is seen almost nowhere else is not due to super human brilliance, it's build on the backs on all the rest of us. Our information. Our content. Typically provided for free or forcefully soaked up by surveillance tactics. You're the operator of a machine that exploits on a planetary scale. You might be awesome at operating this machine, but you don't supply the actual value that leads to those billions.
benhurmarcel 3y ago
> Similar to other professions - engineering and medicine for example Those other professions don't get paid nearly as much though

airstrike 3y ago

People generally get paid the amount that it costs to find someone else to do their job¹ It is very easy to find someone else to be a "rater". Certainly easier than it is to find another software engineer You can argue SWE wages are inflated but comparing them to someone testing whether YouTube search returns the right results is inaccurate and feels disingenuous "Fairness" is a vague concept which nobody can agree on. It's definitely not as easily observable as, say, the marginal cost of replacing a worker --------------- 1. This also happens to be a helpful framework for establishing "value", beyond the context of labor. For instance: how much is a company worth? The amount it would cost to replace them if they were taken out of the picture

segasaturn 3y ago
By that logic, Sundar's pay is completely justified, as well as the pay cuts for Software Engineers, as more and more people become software engineers every day and available pool of workers continues to increase.
- ceejayoz 3y ago
  You don’t think they could find a competent CEO for, say, $100M?
  - segasaturn 3y ago
    You don't think you could find a competent software engineer for $80k?
    - ceejayoz 3y ago
      Sure can. A race to the bottom for engineers at the same time there’s ever-increasing CEO pay is gross. That’s the point.
    - unpopular42 3y ago
      No chance if the competitor next door pays $300k

aaomidi 3y ago

Except engineers bring value. If engineers are to be paid less, then where should the profit go?

beebeepka 3y ago
Profits go up. Sh*t goes down.

pdntspa 3y ago

Show me another profession that can have such a dramatic impact on the bottom line where your work makes the company 100x-1000x your salary. If anything SWE are underpaid, we should be getting a slice of total business unit revenue. With my last job doing SWE for a bank, I know for a fact that my code saved the company hundreds of thousands dollars just from one project, and I know for a fact that some of my other code oversaw over a billion dollars in loan volume annually. And what do I get come review time? No salary change and a variable bonus. It's fucking bullshit. These motherfuckers are getting rich off my back and they don't even share. Even 5% of revenue split across my entire team would be a million-plus or everyone, but nooooooooo we cant have that now can we? Whatever will the pathetic shareholders ever do then???

decafninja 3y ago
Well, you worked at a bank. Other than a few niche roles like algo trading, banks do not pay SWEs particularly well. Nor are they particularly well respected. You play second or third fiddle to the traders. SWEs at FAANG and other top tier tech companies are at a completely different level of compensation. I don’t think they’re underpaid.
- kevstev 3y ago
  I worked in Algo trading at a bank. Banks do not pay SWEs that work in algo trading well. I left finance to work in tech and got a 50% bump right off the bat. And I was well paid on my team- the h1s and kids out of school were not breaking 100k. I know the guy sitting in my old seat and 10 years later he is maybe getting that 50% more while I have 4xed. He works 50-60 hour weeks like I did as well and I rarely go past 45. And this was ten years ago when this stuff was the hot thing. This myth that big banks pay anyone in tech well needs to be dispelled. I worked at a few as well and they were all the same.
  - google234123 3y ago
    Algo trading and even general swe at the top places (e.g. citadel) will pay better than the top tech firms.

satao 3y ago

Maybe in the US, but around the world it us usually just a decent job. The main problem is not the engineers being overpaid, is the rampant inequality that the west has been experiencing without anyone doing anything. The situation is crazy right now. Engineers are not overpaid. The other jobs should have a better pay, while the CEOs should be paid a lot less.

kazen44 3y ago
Heck, from my perspective other professions are highly underpaid. I know a couple of friends who work in healthcare as medical proffesionals (nurses, doctors etc), their wages (especially of nurses) are atrocious compared to the value to society they provide.
- satao 3y ago
  Definitely. Everybody in education and public health should be paid a looooot more.
haliskerbas 3y ago
I never understand why well paid SWEs feel guilty instead of realize that being able to live comfortably if you're working most of your waking day should be the baseline accepted state for society.

zapdrive 3y ago

Totally agree. Tech salary bubble is going to burst soon. As a software engineer myself, I've already started looking for a plan B.

the_only_law 3y ago
Found anything good? I’ve had a few ideas over the years, but they all involve expensive school I’d need an high salary to even afford.
- zapdrive 3y ago
  I'm thinking of getting into construction. The only other classmates from high school who are making as much as me, or even more are those into real estate.

dog321 3y ago

Software engineers are the only highly paid professionals that can convince themselves they are worth less than the going market rate. Not sure i've seen this common sentiment in banking, law, medicine, real estate, or high $ sales.

com2kid 3y ago

> I think the same applies to software engineers. Software Engineering has been a pay/perk bubble for years IMHO the reason is because American tech companies are located in cities with insane costs of living. If Silicon Valley wants to save some serious money on salary, bribe and cajole state and local governments to change housing policy.

sidfthec 3y ago

The money has to go somewhere. Why don't you want it to go to the employees?

dheera 3y ago

> While I agree that CEOs are overpayed, I think the same applies to software engineers. You know who is really overpaid? Landlords. They are the reason everything in Silicon Valley is so damn expensive. I'd gladly take a pay cut if the "landlord association of america" would collectively take a pay cut of their own. That will make this place slightly more affordable. You know who else is really overpaid? A good chunk of the healthcare industry. My healthcare expenses are by far my highest money drain other than rent.

byyy 3y ago

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