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I'll be the odd person out and say I think the PFA danger is being mis-applied. Should we use PFAs in underwear, handsoap, women's fashionware, mens hair produ
by exabrial 4y ago
I'll be the odd person out and say I think the PFA danger is being mis-applied.
Should we use PFAs in underwear, handsoap, women's fashionware, mens hair products, sweaters, holiday decorations, etc? Absolutely not. These items are seasonable and disposable.
Is it ok to use PFAs in outdoor wear, long term infrastructure, and other things designed to have a lifespan of 10-20 years? Yeah probably; a huge net positive for the environment is reduce consumption.
Building fewer things that last longer is a good thing. I have no idea how we would manage this, I don't have all the answers. Obviously PFAs have no place in Fast Fashion, which by itself without PFAs is extraordinarily hard on the environment (lookup textile waste).
The real problem is PFA usage is being completed abused. I think PFAs are needed when durability actually matters, as it's a good tradeoff.
This is my opinion, I'm sure people will disagree.
- gnulinux 4y agoIt seems to me like the biggest concern (at least this is the case for me (a layman) and my girlfriend (a PhD candidate studying Chemical Biology)) for us is that building infrastructure that uses PFA-based materials increases the chances of them ending up in water or food. For example, I used to drink tons of unflavored, purified carbonated water (aka "Seltzer Water"). I thought this is likely not very unhealthy since it's literally just pure water + carbon dioxide dissolved in it. It made me drink tons of more water (we're talking significantly more water than I would normally drink) so I thought it's a net benefit. But some evidence came out [1] that common seltzer brands have detectable amount of PFA in them. This may be because (1) PFAs are in water sources, (2) PFAs are in the plumbing systems of these companies' factories, (3) something else. Since we don't know how much PFA is too much, we've been a lot more meek about drinking seltzer water. To be honest, I still do drink it, but a lot less so. I mostly drink tap water, and in the area I live in (Boston, MA), there is no PFA detection, or it's very low. [1] https://www.cbsnews.com/news/pfas-chemicals-in-sparkling-water-polar-topo-chico-study/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/pfas-chemicals-in-sparkling-wat...
- bacon_waffle 4y agoAside from the PFA situation, it's possible to turn your tap water in to selzer water (probably generating less waste and saving money) with a SodaStream or similar.
- advantager 4y agoYes, and get an RO system to remove PFAS first
- catiopatio 4y agoSodaStream is much better for the environment, but it’s also really not the same thing. I was so disappointed when many of our local restaurants stopped serving bottles of San Pellegrino, and instead switched to whatever the commercial food service equivalent of a SodaStream is.
- cproctor 4y agoThis project [1] is about replicating various mineral waters at home. They have a spreadsheet with chemical analysis of many different bottled waters, and a calculator where you can get your own tap water analyzed and calculate what to add to go from your tap water to Pellegrino, or your preferred mineral water. I haven't tried it yet, but as soon as we get our home carbonation system up and running, am looking forward to it. [1] https://khymos.org/2012/01/04/mineral-waters-a-la-carte/ https://khymos.org/2012/01/04/mineral-waters-a-la-carte/
- mrob 4y agoIf an approximate match is good enough, you can use "Burton salts". It's a blend of salts sold at homebrewing suppliers, matching the mineral content of water from Burton upon Trent, which is famously good for brewing hoppy ales, and which tastes very similar to San Pellegrino.
- rsync 4y agoYou can get a zip hydrotap that dispenses carbonated water from a standard built-in tap. It’s “real” carbonated water and is also chilled. It works quite well. Further, it has standard tank hookup so you can attach a huge co2 tank if you prefer. We only have to change it out yearly.
- bobsmooth 4y agoGet a tank of CO2 and make your own.
- catiopatio 4y agoSadly, you can’t replicate San Pellegrino using tap water and a co2 tank.
- alasarmas 4y agoYou can come close, using distilled water and some powdered minerals that are available at homebrewing supply stores: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/san-pellegrino-clone.562569/ https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/san-pellegrino-clone.56...
- smegsicle 4y agofinally dehydrated luxury water
- rsync 4y agoSee my comment upthread… zip hydrotap. It’s closer to that German brand that starts with a ‘g’ but every bit as “real” as San pelligrino
- leobg 4y agoYou mean Gerolsteiner? Also, what Hydrotap machine are you referring to specifically? Zip HydroTap G5 CS? Just having this discussion with my wife and am researching options. Thanks!
- rsync 4y agoI am in the US ... we have a "HydroTap Arc BCS": https://us.zipwater.com/hydrotap-product-range/hydrotap-arc-for-home/ https://us.zipwater.com/hydrotap-product-range/hydrotap-arc-...
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- atleastoptimal 4y agoI think generally solutions should be applied in proportion to 1. The relative harm of the type of PFA to human and animal health 2. The longevity of that PFA in the environment 3. The removal/price ratio for any technique getting rid of that PFA 4. How likely that PFA in the environment will infiltrate water supplies, food supplies, the biosphere
- engineer_22 4y ago> 2. The longevity of that PFA in the environment They're the "forever" chemicals. Like mercury in tuna fish. PFAS are handy, but there are alternatives. The potential for harm is documented, and developed nations have a duty to consider protecting their populations from their effects.
- spiznnx 4y agoPTFE, the end product, is safe for general use. PFOA/PFOS were used in its manufacture, but does not need to be present in the final product or dumped unprocessed into the wastewater or landfill. It's only in our environment due to cost-savings reasons.
- mlyle 4y agoPTFE isn't the only end-product. There are a lot of products that use PFAS directly for water resistance and other properties. Even some personal care products like dental floss, shampoos, etc.
- spiznnx 4y agoI did not realize this. That seems rather unnecessary.
- verall 4y agoThe dental floss you're talking about is PTFE and not PFAS.
- coryrc 4y agoNope: https://www.ehn.org/pfas-floss-2658203711.html https://www.ehn.org/pfas-floss-2658203711.html
- spiznnx 4y agoPFAS is a class of chemicals that includes both the safe/stable PTFE and cancer-causing ones like PFOA, PFOS, and new ones https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Per-_and_polyfluoroalkyl_substances#Example_chemicals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Per-_and_polyfluoroalkyl_subst...
- engineer_22 4y agoGreat fire retardant, heavily used in soft foam furniture like sofas. Also great for preventing stains, used on carpets. Lots of attractive applications of these chemicals and that's why they're so pervasive
- dmix 4y agoThis is a reasonable take.
- Afforess 4y agoI grew up in Grand Rapids, Michigan (worse actually, Rockford Mi, the wolverine HQ) and only moved away from the state at age 23 for work. (I grew up on well water in Kent county.) I was diagnosed with leukemia at 29, no family history, and it’s very likely it was due to PFAS exposure. My treatment cost my insurance > $1M and 9 months on long term disability. If I wasn’t a software engineer, I’d be dead most likely. I have no recourse, obviously. I don’t think it’s a minor issue.
- exabrial 4y agoIt wouldn't take much to test well water in Kent County. You could literally go to any gas station and pull a sample with with the owner's permission. At least that may give you some definitive answers. Sorry to hear your diagnosis :(
- Afforess 4y agoThere’s a map that shows I lived near a hotspot. 10 mile road. I’m not sure testing is worth it the cost, even if it shows the water is contaminated, I don’t live there anymore, and I’d still have no recourse. There’s no possible outcome that helps me.
- driverdan 4y agoIs there evidence you were exposed to high concentrations of PFAS and that they cause leukemia? If it was caused by pollution it's more likely to be something else.
- hanniabu 4y agoShoulda coulda woulda......governments are incapable of properly regulating due to self interests
- nonethewiser 4y agoPlastic products tend to be both the cheapest and longest lasting. Kinda an unfortunate combo.