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You have these cells in your brain called Microglia. They are responsible for cleaning up neurons and plaques and other weird proteins. These Microglia are acti

You have these cells in your brain called Microglia. They are responsible for cleaning up neurons and plaques and other weird proteins. These Microglia are activated by the firing neurons which release 2-AG and AEA (Anadamide). AEA binds to the CB1 receptor in these Microglia. 2-AG binds to CB2. THC binds to CB1. CBD binds to CB2. Autistic adults have significantly low blood serum levels of AEA. Autistic people’s neurons prune slower. Schizophrenic people’s neurons prune faster. It seems the ECS system is the principal driving mechanism behind both conditions. We need a lot more research in this area, but it could be THC has a positive neurological affect on Autistic people whereas finding a blocker for AEA binding on Microglia may result in a positive neurological affect on Schizophrenic people. The next few years will be especially interesting.

wowlookatme 3y ago
As somebody with autism and a history of cannabis abuse I'm curious to read more about this. Any pointers on where I could start?
- kitanata 3y ago
  https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34744824/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34744824/ This is a review not a study. It is designed to give you a broad view of current areas of active research. It does not validate any of the research it discusses. It just says “this is what is out there”. Welcome to the rabbit hole.
denton-scratch 3y ago
Empirically (based on my own observations) I've known for decades that weed induced episodes in schizophrenic people. I didn't know it was helpful for autistic people. On the same (personal observation) basis, I'd say that schizophrenic people are drawn to cannabis. I have no idea why; perhaps because they're often very marginalized and precarious.
- mikrl 3y ago
  One of my stoner friends in high school 10-15 years ago was dating an autistic girl, and he mentioned that it had some medical benefit for them. Obviously it was ‘pothead science’ without a mechanism etc but it has been a thing anecdotally for at least as long as the medical push has existed.
  - Amezarak 3y ago
    To be fair, I've yet to hear of a disease stoner science doesn't say weed treats.
    - Waterluvian 3y ago
      If the definition of disease is any condition that puts you in a state of dis-ease, then a drug that promotes a state of ease would be a valid treatment! Therefore marijuana is a cure-all. ;) Pliny the Elder would be so proud of me.
- mandmandam 3y ago
  > schizophrenic people are drawn to cannabis. I have no idea why I think that there are a number of reasons for this. CBD, exploration/play of mental states, and the hundred+ other cannabinoids may all be a factor. First, cannabis can contain CBD, which has strong, known anti anxiety and anti-psychotic effects. Couldn't a person vulnerable to episodes recognize this effect when enjoying a higher CBD strain, then seek it out again? It is very unfortunate for these people that prohibition selected for high THC, low CBD strains. Second, it can be a great benefit to know, from experience, that smoking a herb can bring on near-psychosis. Certainly, some people try to get a handle on their condition by 'playing' with it in this way. Learning about the physical feelings and clues that go along with the early stages of an episode may help in some way to feel in control, and even learn to recognize and change the course of a budding episode. Again, it is more than unfortunate that prohibition and propaganda have prevented any real exploration of these possibilities. For thousands of years shamans have played with mental states, and it was seen as not just positive but necessary. It is too often seen as heresy if you suggest that psychosis doesn't actually need to be treated with hardcore pharmaceuticals, for life. I do believe though that it could - at least sometimes - be better treated as a mental state which can be self-recognized, and integrated. Third, cannabis contains hundreds of cannabinoids other than THC and CBD. Some of these may have positive effects on all sorts of things related to schizophrenia and psychosis - mood, humour, insight, metabolism, gut health, etc. Studies which only examine THC and CBD in isolation can only ever understand so much - these interactions may be a lot more complex than we commonly guess.
jokowueu 3y ago
FAAH inhibitors sound like a good idea .
- kitanata 3y ago
  … Sure… if you want to avoid the “side effects” of the current obviously available treatment options. :p
  - jokowueu 3y ago
    FAAH inhibitors do feel great though :p but obviously not as strong as "available treatment options "
atleastoptimal 3y ago
So Schizophrenia is the opposite of Autism?
- kylsssssanzle 3y ago
  [dead]
- perchard 3y ago
  there is a theory along these lines. something like: the defense against the unconscious is so strong in autism that the person becomes rigid and shut off. the defense against the unconscious is so weak in schizophrenia that the person is overwhelmed with phenomena. but both have something to do with intense unconscious objects.
  - apple34 3y ago
    Do you have a source for these claims? Would be super interested in reading more on this.
    - DiscourseFan 3y ago
      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3080676/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3080676/ I found this (relatively) recently published article reviewing Bleuler's Dementia Praecox or the Group of Schizophrenias which is the book where he first publishes the terms "Schizophrenia" and "Autism." Though Bleuler was using the words with his colleagues starting a few years earlier. (Cf. Freud-Jung Correspondences, May 1907[0], you can ctrl-f "autism,""schizophrenia," etc.) [0]https://archive.org/stream/FreudJungLetters/The-Freud-Jung-letters-The-Correspondence-between-Sigmund-Freud-and-C-G-Jung_djvu.txt https://archive.org/stream/FreudJungLetters/The-Freud-Jung-l...
- skissane 3y ago
  Some studies find that "schizophrenia runs in lower average IQ families, autism runs in higher average IQ families", from which some suggest that the autism-vs-schizophrenia distinction is grounded in a higher-vs-lower IQ distinction – see e.g. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4927579/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4927579/ – but I think that kind of research is very speculative and needs to be taken with a large grain of salt Other researchers suggest the boundary between autism and schizophrenia is weaker than is commonly supposed. Common diagnostic tests for ASD perform poorly in distinguishing it from schizophrenia; there is heightened prevalence of each condition among those diagnosed with the other; autism started out as a new name for childhood-onset schizophrenia (in fact the word "autistic" was originally coined to describe schizophrenia), and there is still a lot of dispute about what is the difference between autism and childhood-onset schizophrenia (the former is much more common than the later–subclinical hallucinations are common in children, but clinically significant psychotic symptoms are quite rare) Nobody really knows, not even the experts.
tomcam 3y ago
An obvious shill for the burgeoning autistic weed lobby. I kid! Thanks for the seemingly perfect summary.
skissane 3y ago
> Autistic adults have significantly low blood serum levels of AEA. Autistic people’s neurons prune slower. Schizophrenic people’s neurons prune faster. These are all group-level findings, meaning they aren't true for every individual. You can do a study and find that there is a statistically significant difference in mean X between two samples – autistic vs control or schizophrenic vs control. But pretty much always, although there is a statistically significant difference in the mean, the two samples overlap – which is consistent with this being a factor which only explains some of the cases. > It seems the ECS system is the principal driving mechanism behind both conditions. Claims like that ("the principal driving mechanism behind psychiatric diagnosis X is biological difference Y") have been made many times before, and few of them have gone anywhere. I'd be surprised if this one turns out differently. Both autism and schizophrenia are bundles of different conditions which we've grouped together on the basis of nothing more than overlapping systems. Two people can both have "autism", yet at a biological level they've got two completely different things. The same applies for two people with "schizophrenia". This is why a number of researchers have been arguing that diagnosis-centric research is a dead-end. I wouldn't be surprised if ECS system issues (or any other system in the brain) turn out to be the cause of some cases of autism and some cases of schizophrenia; but there will be other cases of both in which it isn't the "principal driving mechanism" at all.
- DiscourseFan 3y ago
  You know whats really interesting? Autism and Schizophrenia used to refer to the same condition. The term "autism" was invented by Bleuler, who worked with Freud, as a shortened version of his "autoerotism" and referred to a state where a patient was totally absorbed in their own fantasies to the point of hallucinating them. This becomes clear if you look at Jung's "introvert/extrovert" dichotomy (Jung, who worked in Bleuler's lab!), where someone extremely introverted could be BOTH autistic--not communicating with others--and schizophrenic--absorbed in their own fantasies, not concerned with the real world. Now, clearly, mainstream psychology disassociated these terms sometime in the 60s, when the goal with autism diagnoses was moreso to find and identify "abnormal" children (Hans Asperger famously used Autism diagnoses to euthanize children, that's who "Asperger's Syndrome" is named after!), and Schizophrenia gained its own separate classification. But its interesting to note that there was a time when social disaffection in general was considered a single set of disorders.
kevviiinn 3y ago
>Autistic people’s neurons prune slower Do you know of any literature I can read about the mechanisms behind this?
Fnoord 3y ago
"it could be THC has a positive neurological affect on Autistic people". Or it could be not. I have autism. Tho I didn't know it back then. I've had multiple minor psychoses from using marihuana recreationally. I know they're minor (with one on the mediocre side) because I've also had a longer episode likely related to stress. Oh, and marihuana was decriminalized back then. From my perspective, the last thing I need, is THC, and your post hasn't convinced me otherwise. Also, take note of the headline. It mentions men. So for about 50% of society, its unknown. Actually, the reach is even lower, as they looked into men aged 21-30. Honestly, if I compare marihuana to psilocybin I'd say the latter is more predictable. But either way, it all has to be standardized. Recreational usage of marihuana is not, and this is problematic, even though it is decriminalized here (and has been for many decades here). The fact people cannot buy psilo's anymore here shivers me in that regard; they either grow their own (not standardized) or have to resort to things like truffles.
- red-iron-pine 3y ago
  Heard similar stories from my Ex's older brother. Nice guy, probably on the spectrum, started smoking weed to help him chill out in social situations. Turned into a heavy user. Few years later he ended up hospitalized due to psychosis, ended up on schizophrenia meds. Spend 2 years working a shit job medicated up to his eyeballs, smoking weed regularly. He met a girl after I wanna say ~2 years and got off the weed... and didn't have a lick of psychosis. Eventually got off the meds, working a job just fine, does a lot of mountain biking. Can't say what he's doing now but when me and the ex split he'd basically turned his life around, and it was mostly due to getting lots of exercise and cutting out the marijuana.
raxxorraxor 3y ago
There also needs to be an analysis on higher level brain functions as well. Delusions of persecution are the most common form of schizophrenia. But drug users are indeed persecuted. Perhaps has no effect, but I could imagine it to be relevant if you constantly have to hide your usage. It certainly is not helpful.
danlugo92 3y ago
As someone on the spectrum, it had amazing therapeutical effects on me.

wowlookatme 3y ago

As somebody with autism and a history of cannabis abuse I'm curious to read more about this. Any pointers on where I could start?

kitanata 3y ago
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34744824/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34744824/ This is a review not a study. It is designed to give you a broad view of current areas of active research. It does not validate any of the research it discusses. It just says “this is what is out there”. Welcome to the rabbit hole.

denton-scratch 3y ago

Empirically (based on my own observations) I've known for decades that weed induced episodes in schizophrenic people. I didn't know it was helpful for autistic people. On the same (personal observation) basis, I'd say that schizophrenic people are drawn to cannabis. I have no idea why; perhaps because they're often very marginalized and precarious.

mikrl 3y ago
One of my stoner friends in high school 10-15 years ago was dating an autistic girl, and he mentioned that it had some medical benefit for them. Obviously it was ‘pothead science’ without a mechanism etc but it has been a thing anecdotally for at least as long as the medical push has existed.
- Amezarak 3y ago
  To be fair, I've yet to hear of a disease stoner science doesn't say weed treats.
  - Waterluvian 3y ago
    If the definition of disease is any condition that puts you in a state of dis-ease, then a drug that promotes a state of ease would be a valid treatment! Therefore marijuana is a cure-all. ;) Pliny the Elder would be so proud of me.
mandmandam 3y ago
> schizophrenic people are drawn to cannabis. I have no idea why I think that there are a number of reasons for this. CBD, exploration/play of mental states, and the hundred+ other cannabinoids may all be a factor. First, cannabis can contain CBD, which has strong, known anti anxiety and anti-psychotic effects. Couldn't a person vulnerable to episodes recognize this effect when enjoying a higher CBD strain, then seek it out again? It is very unfortunate for these people that prohibition selected for high THC, low CBD strains. Second, it can be a great benefit to know, from experience, that smoking a herb can bring on near-psychosis. Certainly, some people try to get a handle on their condition by 'playing' with it in this way. Learning about the physical feelings and clues that go along with the early stages of an episode may help in some way to feel in control, and even learn to recognize and change the course of a budding episode. Again, it is more than unfortunate that prohibition and propaganda have prevented any real exploration of these possibilities. For thousands of years shamans have played with mental states, and it was seen as not just positive but necessary. It is too often seen as heresy if you suggest that psychosis doesn't actually need to be treated with hardcore pharmaceuticals, for life. I do believe though that it could - at least sometimes - be better treated as a mental state which can be self-recognized, and integrated. Third, cannabis contains hundreds of cannabinoids other than THC and CBD. Some of these may have positive effects on all sorts of things related to schizophrenia and psychosis - mood, humour, insight, metabolism, gut health, etc. Studies which only examine THC and CBD in isolation can only ever understand so much - these interactions may be a lot more complex than we commonly guess.

jokowueu 3y ago

FAAH inhibitors sound like a good idea .

kitanata 3y ago
… Sure… if you want to avoid the “side effects” of the current obviously available treatment options. :p
- jokowueu 3y ago
  FAAH inhibitors do feel great though :p but obviously not as strong as "available treatment options "

atleastoptimal 3y ago

So Schizophrenia is the opposite of Autism?

kylsssssanzle 3y ago
[dead]
perchard 3y ago
there is a theory along these lines. something like: the defense against the unconscious is so strong in autism that the person becomes rigid and shut off. the defense against the unconscious is so weak in schizophrenia that the person is overwhelmed with phenomena. but both have something to do with intense unconscious objects.
- apple34 3y ago
  Do you have a source for these claims? Would be super interested in reading more on this.
  - DiscourseFan 3y ago
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3080676/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3080676/ I found this (relatively) recently published article reviewing Bleuler's Dementia Praecox or the Group of Schizophrenias which is the book where he first publishes the terms "Schizophrenia" and "Autism." Though Bleuler was using the words with his colleagues starting a few years earlier. (Cf. Freud-Jung Correspondences, May 1907[0], you can ctrl-f "autism,""schizophrenia," etc.) [0]https://archive.org/stream/FreudJungLetters/The-Freud-Jung-letters-The-Correspondence-between-Sigmund-Freud-and-C-G-Jung_djvu.txt https://archive.org/stream/FreudJungLetters/The-Freud-Jung-l...
skissane 3y ago
Some studies find that "schizophrenia runs in lower average IQ families, autism runs in higher average IQ families", from which some suggest that the autism-vs-schizophrenia distinction is grounded in a higher-vs-lower IQ distinction – see e.g. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4927579/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4927579/ – but I think that kind of research is very speculative and needs to be taken with a large grain of salt Other researchers suggest the boundary between autism and schizophrenia is weaker than is commonly supposed. Common diagnostic tests for ASD perform poorly in distinguishing it from schizophrenia; there is heightened prevalence of each condition among those diagnosed with the other; autism started out as a new name for childhood-onset schizophrenia (in fact the word "autistic" was originally coined to describe schizophrenia), and there is still a lot of dispute about what is the difference between autism and childhood-onset schizophrenia (the former is much more common than the later–subclinical hallucinations are common in children, but clinically significant psychotic symptoms are quite rare) Nobody really knows, not even the experts.

tomcam 3y ago

An obvious shill for the burgeoning autistic weed lobby. I kid! Thanks for the seemingly perfect summary.

skissane 3y ago

> Autistic adults have significantly low blood serum levels of AEA. Autistic people’s neurons prune slower. Schizophrenic people’s neurons prune faster. These are all group-level findings, meaning they aren't true for every individual. You can do a study and find that there is a statistically significant difference in mean X between two samples – autistic vs control or schizophrenic vs control. But pretty much always, although there is a statistically significant difference in the mean, the two samples overlap – which is consistent with this being a factor which only explains some of the cases. > It seems the ECS system is the principal driving mechanism behind both conditions. Claims like that ("the principal driving mechanism behind psychiatric diagnosis X is biological difference Y") have been made many times before, and few of them have gone anywhere. I'd be surprised if this one turns out differently. Both autism and schizophrenia are bundles of different conditions which we've grouped together on the basis of nothing more than overlapping systems. Two people can both have "autism", yet at a biological level they've got two completely different things. The same applies for two people with "schizophrenia". This is why a number of researchers have been arguing that diagnosis-centric research is a dead-end. I wouldn't be surprised if ECS system issues (or any other system in the brain) turn out to be the cause of some cases of autism and some cases of schizophrenia; but there will be other cases of both in which it isn't the "principal driving mechanism" at all.

DiscourseFan 3y ago
You know whats really interesting? Autism and Schizophrenia used to refer to the same condition. The term "autism" was invented by Bleuler, who worked with Freud, as a shortened version of his "autoerotism" and referred to a state where a patient was totally absorbed in their own fantasies to the point of hallucinating them. This becomes clear if you look at Jung's "introvert/extrovert" dichotomy (Jung, who worked in Bleuler's lab!), where someone extremely introverted could be BOTH autistic--not communicating with others--and schizophrenic--absorbed in their own fantasies, not concerned with the real world. Now, clearly, mainstream psychology disassociated these terms sometime in the 60s, when the goal with autism diagnoses was moreso to find and identify "abnormal" children (Hans Asperger famously used Autism diagnoses to euthanize children, that's who "Asperger's Syndrome" is named after!), and Schizophrenia gained its own separate classification. But its interesting to note that there was a time when social disaffection in general was considered a single set of disorders.

kevviiinn 3y ago

>Autistic people’s neurons prune slower Do you know of any literature I can read about the mechanisms behind this?

Fnoord 3y ago

"it could be THC has a positive neurological affect on Autistic people". Or it could be not. I have autism. Tho I didn't know it back then. I've had multiple minor psychoses from using marihuana recreationally. I know they're minor (with one on the mediocre side) because I've also had a longer episode likely related to stress. Oh, and marihuana was decriminalized back then. From my perspective, the last thing I need, is THC, and your post hasn't convinced me otherwise. Also, take note of the headline. It mentions men. So for about 50% of society, its unknown. Actually, the reach is even lower, as they looked into men aged 21-30. Honestly, if I compare marihuana to psilocybin I'd say the latter is more predictable. But either way, it all has to be standardized. Recreational usage of marihuana is not, and this is problematic, even though it is decriminalized here (and has been for many decades here). The fact people cannot buy psilo's anymore here shivers me in that regard; they either grow their own (not standardized) or have to resort to things like truffles.

red-iron-pine 3y ago
Heard similar stories from my Ex's older brother. Nice guy, probably on the spectrum, started smoking weed to help him chill out in social situations. Turned into a heavy user. Few years later he ended up hospitalized due to psychosis, ended up on schizophrenia meds. Spend 2 years working a shit job medicated up to his eyeballs, smoking weed regularly. He met a girl after I wanna say ~2 years and got off the weed... and didn't have a lick of psychosis. Eventually got off the meds, working a job just fine, does a lot of mountain biking. Can't say what he's doing now but when me and the ex split he'd basically turned his life around, and it was mostly due to getting lots of exercise and cutting out the marijuana.

raxxorraxor 3y ago

There also needs to be an analysis on higher level brain functions as well. Delusions of persecution are the most common form of schizophrenia. But drug users are indeed persecuted. Perhaps has no effect, but I could imagine it to be relevant if you constantly have to hide your usage. It certainly is not helpful.

danlugo92 3y ago

As someone on the spectrum, it had amazing therapeutical effects on me.