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Armed soldiers wheeled and fired en masse on unarmed protestors yet none of them faced legal penalty. The state of Ohio paid compensation. Because the soldiers

Armed soldiers wheeled and fired en masse on unarmed protestors yet none of them faced legal penalty. The state of Ohio paid compensation. Because the soldiers "feared for their lives." I'm sure it was scary, but maybe we need braver national guardsmen. Official ass covering after official violence is a long tradition.

mrguyorama 3y ago
It's as american as apple pie to use state violence on innocent and largely peaceful protestors and then just pretend it's no big deal. Remember the time unmarked soldiers were pulling people off the street in Portland? Or when peaceful protestors were disbursed with force so the president could take a picture while holding a bible upsidedown? Or Waco. Or the battle of Blair Mountain. Or the Tulsa Race Massacre. Americans constantly turn a blind eye to peaceful or innocent people getting brutally harmed by agents of the state. You will find plenty of people always willing to blame the victims.
- HDThoreaun 3y ago
  Government abuse is not uniquely American. Practically every state in history has abused its monopoly on violence to shut down political dissent.
  - krapp 3y ago
    Americans are unique in that they believe their government cowers in fear of the pistols they keep under their pillows, and that theirs is the only truly free nation in the world, where tyranny can never occur.
    - shadowgovt 3y ago
      Correct. Where in reality if you brandish a gun at the authority for long enough, it eventually responds by dropping a bomb on your roof. (... we still remember it, Philadelphia).
      - Paul-Craft 3y ago
        > (... we still remember it, Philadelphia). For those who don't know: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1985_MOVE_bombing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1985_MOVE_bombing
  - soperj 3y ago
    Apple pie isn't very American either[1] 1. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/why-apple-pie-linked-america-180963157/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/why-apple-pie-link...
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- jimbob45 3y ago
  It's as american as apple pie to use state violence on innocent and largely peaceful protestors and then just pretend it's no big deal You have it backwards. We manipulate the police into attacking and then pretend to be victims. See: Boston Massacre, BLM 2020, 2021 Capital Protests
  - DFHippie 3y ago
    What? All the unarmed black men killed by the police were seeking martyrdom in order to manipulate the police? Wow. If the police are so easily manipulated to perpetrate violence on the folks they are sworn to protect (and therefore should be held blameless), we really need better police. Maybe they don't cover not shooting civilians in the six weeks or training or whatever it is new recruits receive. They should also have a course on resisting the jedi mind control civilians are apparently capable of.
- jMyles 3y ago
  I just want to add Rainbow Farm to this list, because it was discussed so little in its immediate aftermath (almost certainly owing to 9/11 occurring days later).
absolutelymild 3y ago
[flagged]
- jMyles 3y ago
  I know this subject needs to be (and deserves to be) treated with great care, but I think this is an unfair comparison. I was and am an ardent supporter of (and often, a participant in) the street protests of that era, and for the reforms and abolition for which they were calling. I was in the thick of the tear gas in Portland many times, hoping that our actions might lead to a greater respect for Black lives in the USA. And I wish Rittenhouse had stayed home that evening and that those protesters were alive and uninjured today. That said, comparing his situation to this one is unfair. Rittenhouse was in a violent and confusing scuffle and was injured immediately before engaging. He had a loaded gun pointed at him at the moment he fired at Grosskreutz. Using him as the poster boy for bogus self-defense claims, especially the extremely specious versions of them so often proffered by law enforcement when they kill dogs or humans, seems counter-productive. These guardsmen had no comparable basis for fearing for their lives that day (or in the days prior, when they inflicted grotesque violence, including stabbing 11 people with bayonets).
- tristor 3y ago
  Any reasonable and unbiased viewing of the facts of the Rittenhouse case would conclude he acted in self-defense, which happens to be what the court decided as well. One of the people he shot admitted under oath that they had chased Rittenhouse with a mob, then pointed a gun at Rittenhouse and were preparing to shoot him prior to being shot by Rittenhouse. That has absolutely nothing to do with what happened at Kent State.
GartzenDeHaes 3y ago
Unlike the rich and privileged college kids, the guardsmen had no choice in being there, nor did they have any choice about carrying loaded weapons.
- InitialLastName 3y ago
  Wow, if they were conscripted that makes the story even worse. Even so, they had a choice about using the loaded weapons.
- aschearer 3y ago
  You could say they were just following orders.
- DFHippie 3y ago
  Sure they had a choice. They had a choice whether to aim at the sky, the ground, or the protestors. And they had the same choice the protestors were exercising: whether or not to obey the authority ordering them to do stuff. But they weren't ordered to fire on the protestors. The guardsmen who did shoot at the sky or the ground, which was most of them, weren't prosecuted for disobeying orders. The more important choice was the first. That's the one for which they should have been charged with murder. P.S. How rich and privileged are kids who go to Kent State in Ohio? It's not Yale. In 1970 it was pretty cheap. And regardless, why does this justify the harm they suffered? The guardsmen were right to shoot the college kids because they weren't as rich or privileged? That's a really horrifying take on the event. That's another long tradition: portraying the victims of lethal violence as unsympathetic in some way as though this mitigates the harm they suffered. I assume most people reading Hacker News aren't at the bottom of the economic ladder. Does this make them fair game?
- yardie 3y ago
  Definitely had a choice in putting a round into the chamber. Definitely had a choice in placing the sight between their eye and the victims. Definitely had a choice in sliding a finger through the trigger guard. Definitely had a choice in disengaging the safety. Definitely had a choice in squeezing the trigger. They had plenty of choices that day.
- 3y ago

mrguyorama 3y ago

It's as american as apple pie to use state violence on innocent and largely peaceful protestors and then just pretend it's no big deal. Remember the time unmarked soldiers were pulling people off the street in Portland? Or when peaceful protestors were disbursed with force so the president could take a picture while holding a bible upsidedown? Or Waco. Or the battle of Blair Mountain. Or the Tulsa Race Massacre. Americans constantly turn a blind eye to peaceful or innocent people getting brutally harmed by agents of the state. You will find plenty of people always willing to blame the victims.

HDThoreaun 3y ago
Government abuse is not uniquely American. Practically every state in history has abused its monopoly on violence to shut down political dissent.
- krapp 3y ago
  Americans are unique in that they believe their government cowers in fear of the pistols they keep under their pillows, and that theirs is the only truly free nation in the world, where tyranny can never occur.
  - shadowgovt 3y ago
    Correct. Where in reality if you brandish a gun at the authority for long enough, it eventually responds by dropping a bomb on your roof. (... we still remember it, Philadelphia).
    - Paul-Craft 3y ago
      > (... we still remember it, Philadelphia). For those who don't know: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1985_MOVE_bombing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1985_MOVE_bombing
- soperj 3y ago
  Apple pie isn't very American either[1] 1. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/why-apple-pie-linked-america-180963157/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/why-apple-pie-link...
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
jimbob45 3y ago
It's as american as apple pie to use state violence on innocent and largely peaceful protestors and then just pretend it's no big deal You have it backwards. We manipulate the police into attacking and then pretend to be victims. See: Boston Massacre, BLM 2020, 2021 Capital Protests
- DFHippie 3y ago
  What? All the unarmed black men killed by the police were seeking martyrdom in order to manipulate the police? Wow. If the police are so easily manipulated to perpetrate violence on the folks they are sworn to protect (and therefore should be held blameless), we really need better police. Maybe they don't cover not shooting civilians in the six weeks or training or whatever it is new recruits receive. They should also have a course on resisting the jedi mind control civilians are apparently capable of.
jMyles 3y ago
I just want to add Rainbow Farm to this list, because it was discussed so little in its immediate aftermath (almost certainly owing to 9/11 occurring days later).

absolutelymild 3y ago

[flagged]

jMyles 3y ago
I know this subject needs to be (and deserves to be) treated with great care, but I think this is an unfair comparison. I was and am an ardent supporter of (and often, a participant in) the street protests of that era, and for the reforms and abolition for which they were calling. I was in the thick of the tear gas in Portland many times, hoping that our actions might lead to a greater respect for Black lives in the USA. And I wish Rittenhouse had stayed home that evening and that those protesters were alive and uninjured today. That said, comparing his situation to this one is unfair. Rittenhouse was in a violent and confusing scuffle and was injured immediately before engaging. He had a loaded gun pointed at him at the moment he fired at Grosskreutz. Using him as the poster boy for bogus self-defense claims, especially the extremely specious versions of them so often proffered by law enforcement when they kill dogs or humans, seems counter-productive. These guardsmen had no comparable basis for fearing for their lives that day (or in the days prior, when they inflicted grotesque violence, including stabbing 11 people with bayonets).
tristor 3y ago
Any reasonable and unbiased viewing of the facts of the Rittenhouse case would conclude he acted in self-defense, which happens to be what the court decided as well. One of the people he shot admitted under oath that they had chased Rittenhouse with a mob, then pointed a gun at Rittenhouse and were preparing to shoot him prior to being shot by Rittenhouse. That has absolutely nothing to do with what happened at Kent State.

GartzenDeHaes 3y ago

Unlike the rich and privileged college kids, the guardsmen had no choice in being there, nor did they have any choice about carrying loaded weapons.

InitialLastName 3y ago
Wow, if they were conscripted that makes the story even worse. Even so, they had a choice about using the loaded weapons.
aschearer 3y ago
You could say they were just following orders.
DFHippie 3y ago
Sure they had a choice. They had a choice whether to aim at the sky, the ground, or the protestors. And they had the same choice the protestors were exercising: whether or not to obey the authority ordering them to do stuff. But they weren't ordered to fire on the protestors. The guardsmen who did shoot at the sky or the ground, which was most of them, weren't prosecuted for disobeying orders. The more important choice was the first. That's the one for which they should have been charged with murder. P.S. How rich and privileged are kids who go to Kent State in Ohio? It's not Yale. In 1970 it was pretty cheap. And regardless, why does this justify the harm they suffered? The guardsmen were right to shoot the college kids because they weren't as rich or privileged? That's a really horrifying take on the event. That's another long tradition: portraying the victims of lethal violence as unsympathetic in some way as though this mitigates the harm they suffered. I assume most people reading Hacker News aren't at the bottom of the economic ladder. Does this make them fair game?
yardie 3y ago
Definitely had a choice in putting a round into the chamber. Definitely had a choice in placing the sight between their eye and the victims. Definitely had a choice in sliding a finger through the trigger guard. Definitely had a choice in disengaging the safety. Definitely had a choice in squeezing the trigger. They had plenty of choices that day.
3y ago