5 ms·

As far as I understand, tech salaries are much smaller in the EU and the UK and there's way less venture capital. Also we don't seem to be leading in tech in an

by pipes 3y ago

As far as I understand, tech salaries are much smaller in the EU and the UK and there's way less venture capital. Also we don't seem to be leading in tech in any way compared to SV. I guess that is what he means. (I live in the UK and can only dream about USA level salaries).

skrebbel 3y ago
Yeah but how is lower tech salaries bad for the startup? It just makes it easier to compete on compensation, right? I agree with the available VC money, it’s a big difference. But I don’t see how governments are supposed to fix that.
- f6v 3y ago
  > Yeah but how is lower tech salaries bad for the startup? The cream of the crop goes to US. There’re some other obvious disadvantages the EU has for the talent looking to immigrate, like having to learn a local language if you want to be part of the society.
  - skrebbel 3y ago
    This is not my experience. There's lots of extremely good programmers here. Sure, they're hard to recruit, but so are they in the US. Cities like Amsterdam and Berlin have a huge crowd of great tech people and most don't speak the local language. Of course people exist who move to wherever the salaries are the highest, but way more people want to be able to visit mom and dad every once in a while.
    - alex7o 3y ago
      Or like to go visit Berghain once in a while.
    - f6v 3y ago
      I’m not saying that Berlin and Amsterdam only get stupid people. But it’s uncommon to meet a graduate from a top school there (which isn’t a 100% reliable metic, but anyway). What helps Europe(and I mean mostly Germany) are more relaxed immigration rules. Like you can come looking for job without having a job offer, or get permanent residence quickly. Working visas also aren’t capped like H1B.
      - kevviiinn 3y ago
        Top school? In which countries? My money is on you're just considering US schools
kneebonian 3y ago
I've actually hears that ServiceNow and SAP are both EU based, which really seems to me to prove the point more than anything. SAP when a beaurcratic problem needs and equally byzantine solution
- adventured 3y ago
  ServiceNow is an American, Silicon Valley software company. HQ is in Santa Clara and it was founded in California two decades ago.
bborud 3y ago
I'm not convinced it is really about something as simple as salaries. If it was people would be flocking to SV from here. They are not. The vast majority of those who could get jobs in SV stay here. And the vast majority of those who do take jobs in SV, eventually come back. I have had that choice to move to SV several times. And no doubt make a pile of money. But I don't want to live in the US. I want to live here. And if you follow indices that measure quality of life, security, democracy, freedom etc. it is easy to see why. Norway is usually at the top of those indices -- the US very much isn't. I think this is also the reason we have an anemic tech sector: if you have a lot to lose, you become risk averse. Why start a company and gamble money when you can find a mediocre, well paid job where you work 7.5 hours per day, 5 days per week, go home at the end of the day and focus on what you want to do? I think part of our problem is a lack of fear of not making it. We don't have to make it to have a good life. And we know it. (It is also a factor that the cost of living in SV is a lot higher than here. I did the numbers many years ago, and I'd have to make more than double what I make here to have the same amount of disposable income in SV)
- marvinkennis 3y ago
  For what it's worth, there's a huge barrier to get to SV in the form of US immigration policies. Your anecdote is no doubt valid, but if those immigration policies were loosened up, I'd bet we'd see an even larger migration to SV.
  - bborud 3y ago
    But that wasn't really the question. The question was if people who can will move.
- ActorNightly 3y ago
  > But I don't want to live in the US. I want to live here. And if you follow indices that measure quality of life, security, democracy, freedom etc. it is easy to see why If you go by the internet metrics that are vastly skewed to be anti capitalist, then sure. In reality, US is very much "make your own life". We have conservative areas, liberal areas, and everything in between. You can live in a busy city, or you can live very remotely. Objectively speaking, if you take your salary+benefits-taxes in US versus salary+benefits-taxes in EU, the only way EU wins is if you are still in early stages of career and start having kids.
Fnoord 3y ago
> I live in the UK and can only dream about USA level salaries The cost of living in SV is insanely high. If you think rent is high in London or Amsterdam, think again. These are outliers, and they don't have a good social system to save those in need. You also need to take into account tax and cost of living. Yes, there's a couple of people who seemingly win, but everything counted its a minus in my eyes. I've been in SV in 2005. I don't want to live there. The weather is decent and landscape is good, but I'm fine here in The Netherlands. I have access to beach, the weather is decent too, income is acceptable, there's a working social system, and on the plus side I also don't have earthquakes in the area where I live. Oh, and if you're a foreigner: people speak English. Though you'll find the same in say Berlin.

by pipes 3y ago

skrebbel 3y ago

Yeah but how is lower tech salaries bad for the startup? It just makes it easier to compete on compensation, right? I agree with the available VC money, it’s a big difference. But I don’t see how governments are supposed to fix that.

f6v 3y ago
> Yeah but how is lower tech salaries bad for the startup? The cream of the crop goes to US. There’re some other obvious disadvantages the EU has for the talent looking to immigrate, like having to learn a local language if you want to be part of the society.
- skrebbel 3y ago
  This is not my experience. There's lots of extremely good programmers here. Sure, they're hard to recruit, but so are they in the US. Cities like Amsterdam and Berlin have a huge crowd of great tech people and most don't speak the local language. Of course people exist who move to wherever the salaries are the highest, but way more people want to be able to visit mom and dad every once in a while.
  - alex7o 3y ago
    Or like to go visit Berghain once in a while.
  - f6v 3y ago
    I’m not saying that Berlin and Amsterdam only get stupid people. But it’s uncommon to meet a graduate from a top school there (which isn’t a 100% reliable metic, but anyway). What helps Europe(and I mean mostly Germany) are more relaxed immigration rules. Like you can come looking for job without having a job offer, or get permanent residence quickly. Working visas also aren’t capped like H1B.
    - kevviiinn 3y ago
      Top school? In which countries? My money is on you're just considering US schools

kneebonian 3y ago

I've actually hears that ServiceNow and SAP are both EU based, which really seems to me to prove the point more than anything. SAP when a beaurcratic problem needs and equally byzantine solution

adventured 3y ago
ServiceNow is an American, Silicon Valley software company. HQ is in Santa Clara and it was founded in California two decades ago.

bborud 3y ago

I'm not convinced it is really about something as simple as salaries. If it was people would be flocking to SV from here. They are not. The vast majority of those who could get jobs in SV stay here. And the vast majority of those who do take jobs in SV, eventually come back. I have had that choice to move to SV several times. And no doubt make a pile of money. But I don't want to live in the US. I want to live here. And if you follow indices that measure quality of life, security, democracy, freedom etc. it is easy to see why. Norway is usually at the top of those indices -- the US very much isn't. I think this is also the reason we have an anemic tech sector: if you have a lot to lose, you become risk averse. Why start a company and gamble money when you can find a mediocre, well paid job where you work 7.5 hours per day, 5 days per week, go home at the end of the day and focus on what you want to do? I think part of our problem is a lack of fear of not making it. We don't have to make it to have a good life. And we know it. (It is also a factor that the cost of living in SV is a lot higher than here. I did the numbers many years ago, and I'd have to make more than double what I make here to have the same amount of disposable income in SV)

marvinkennis 3y ago
For what it's worth, there's a huge barrier to get to SV in the form of US immigration policies. Your anecdote is no doubt valid, but if those immigration policies were loosened up, I'd bet we'd see an even larger migration to SV.
- bborud 3y ago
  But that wasn't really the question. The question was if people who can will move.
ActorNightly 3y ago
> But I don't want to live in the US. I want to live here. And if you follow indices that measure quality of life, security, democracy, freedom etc. it is easy to see why If you go by the internet metrics that are vastly skewed to be anti capitalist, then sure. In reality, US is very much "make your own life". We have conservative areas, liberal areas, and everything in between. You can live in a busy city, or you can live very remotely. Objectively speaking, if you take your salary+benefits-taxes in US versus salary+benefits-taxes in EU, the only way EU wins is if you are still in early stages of career and start having kids.

Fnoord 3y ago

> I live in the UK and can only dream about USA level salaries The cost of living in SV is insanely high. If you think rent is high in London or Amsterdam, think again. These are outliers, and they don't have a good social system to save those in need. You also need to take into account tax and cost of living. Yes, there's a couple of people who seemingly win, but everything counted its a minus in my eyes. I've been in SV in 2005. I don't want to live there. The weather is decent and landscape is good, but I'm fine here in The Netherlands. I have access to beach, the weather is decent too, income is acceptable, there's a working social system, and on the plus side I also don't have earthquakes in the area where I live. Oh, and if you're a foreigner: people speak English. Though you'll find the same in say Berlin.