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Yes. Fines should be a percentage of income. That's how we have it in Finland and it works. Fines are supposed to hurt you financially, not be a cost of doing

Yes. Fines should be a percentage of income. That's how we have it in Finland and it works. Fines are supposed to hurt you financially, not be a cost of doing business that hurts poorer people disproportionally.

Ekaros 4y ago
Not parking fines, they are fixed amount by municipality. Parking fines, is bit more complicated. Maybe the tax rate of the car or some current price... Then again rich could get cheap car and just use that.
- masklinn 4y ago
  > Not parking fines, they are fixed amount by municipality. Why not parking fines? They can be set in day fines as well.
  - Ekaros 4y ago
    I think average people would thing that they would be too high for the crime. Minimum day fine for someone without income is 6€. Now parking fine is I think depending locations is 20-80€. So you tell that this incomeless person parked the car. And we have set it at 5 day fines so 30€ at low end. On other hand day fine for median earner is around 35 €. Which would mean 180€ parkin fine. Most would think that to be excessive.
    - masklinn 4y ago
      > Most would think that to be excessive. But is it? Alternatively, provide two values and select whichever is higher e.g. "30€ or 1 day", this method is common with corporate crimes (e.g. "1 million or 1.5% global revenue", that sort of things). Even if you're on the low end of incomes a day in jail would hurt a lot for a parking fine.
jrvarela56 4y ago
How can you calculate someone’s income in a way that makes this feasible? Wealthy people 1) dont have most stuff to their name directly, 2) have capital gains which make income ‘spike-y’, 3) make money on many jurisdictions, many which may not be visible to the country fining the person Just curious how this works in practice
- TheFattestNinja 4y ago
  Based off tax return and make tax fraud hurt. Sure some people will still optimize for tax avoidance but will be far fewer than the totality of those wealthy enough to disregard rules at present.
  - throwaway60607 4y ago
    Here's how you do it if you're rich: Every European country (even Finland) has harmonized rules about "tax residency". The rules are simple: If you actually and honestly live there at least half a year and one day of a calendar year, that place becomes your tax residency for that year. The rich person buys a property in Monaco and goes there for half a year + 1 day. That year Monaco is their tax residency. They take out dividends from their off-shore (or Netherlands) holding companies. Boom, perfectly legal personal income taxed at super-low (or 0) rate that Finland has no idea about. Then the person returns back to Finland and again accumulates their income into the holding company for a few years until they run out of whatever they got as a dividend. Repeat until...
    - theshrike79 4y ago
      Just being "rich" isn't enough to get a citizenship in Monaco. You need to be either famous+rich or wealthy. But that's how it goes and there are other countries you can use to evade taxes too.
      - throwaway60607 4y ago
        You don't need citizenship at all. Not even permanent or temporary residency. You will become a tax resident of a state even if you have just a tourist visa. You don't need to own the property either, a rental apartment is just fine. Even living in a hotel would work if you can prove it was your "base of operations" during that time. Not sure what's the distinction between rich and wealthy, sounds the same to me.
6nf 4y ago
Then you gotta charge for parking the same way
- halgir 4y ago
  Parking is a service that you receive in exchange for money. Our society has accepted that those who have more money are able to purchase more goods and services. Fines are not payment for services rendered, but a deterrent for behavior we don't want anyone to engage in. If it doesn't scale, then it's only a deterrent for those who can't afford it.
- melenaboija 4y ago
  Yes you probably could but taxes, that are already proportional, will cover most of the cost of the parking.
  - doctor_eval 4y ago
    Sales tax isn't proportional.
    - melenaboija 4y ago
      Agree, but I was talking about the cost of parking including the fines.
- marcinzm 4y ago
  That is effectively the case. Taxes, in theory, scale with income and a lot of the car infrastructure is tax subsidized including street parking.
eviks 4y ago
hurt you financially = cost of doing business
thunky 4y ago
> Yes. Fines should be a percentage of income. Then Jeff Bezos, who has billions, can pay $0 fines since AMZN produces no dividend income. Even if you count capital gains income, he could just take a big tax hit one year and then be in the clear for life. Not to mention, he'll also qualify for welfare because of his $0 income.
timbit42 4y ago
> Fines should be a percentage of income. or better: net worth.

Ekaros 4y ago

Not parking fines, they are fixed amount by municipality. Parking fines, is bit more complicated. Maybe the tax rate of the car or some current price... Then again rich could get cheap car and just use that.

masklinn 4y ago
> Not parking fines, they are fixed amount by municipality. Why not parking fines? They can be set in day fines as well.
- Ekaros 4y ago
  I think average people would thing that they would be too high for the crime. Minimum day fine for someone without income is 6€. Now parking fine is I think depending locations is 20-80€. So you tell that this incomeless person parked the car. And we have set it at 5 day fines so 30€ at low end. On other hand day fine for median earner is around 35 €. Which would mean 180€ parkin fine. Most would think that to be excessive.
  - masklinn 4y ago
    > Most would think that to be excessive. But is it? Alternatively, provide two values and select whichever is higher e.g. "30€ or 1 day", this method is common with corporate crimes (e.g. "1 million or 1.5% global revenue", that sort of things). Even if you're on the low end of incomes a day in jail would hurt a lot for a parking fine.

jrvarela56 4y ago

How can you calculate someone’s income in a way that makes this feasible? Wealthy people 1) dont have most stuff to their name directly, 2) have capital gains which make income ‘spike-y’, 3) make money on many jurisdictions, many which may not be visible to the country fining the person Just curious how this works in practice

TheFattestNinja 4y ago
Based off tax return and make tax fraud hurt. Sure some people will still optimize for tax avoidance but will be far fewer than the totality of those wealthy enough to disregard rules at present.
- throwaway60607 4y ago
  Here's how you do it if you're rich: Every European country (even Finland) has harmonized rules about "tax residency". The rules are simple: If you actually and honestly live there at least half a year and one day of a calendar year, that place becomes your tax residency for that year. The rich person buys a property in Monaco and goes there for half a year + 1 day. That year Monaco is their tax residency. They take out dividends from their off-shore (or Netherlands) holding companies. Boom, perfectly legal personal income taxed at super-low (or 0) rate that Finland has no idea about. Then the person returns back to Finland and again accumulates their income into the holding company for a few years until they run out of whatever they got as a dividend. Repeat until...
  - theshrike79 4y ago
    Just being "rich" isn't enough to get a citizenship in Monaco. You need to be either famous+rich or wealthy. But that's how it goes and there are other countries you can use to evade taxes too.
    - throwaway60607 4y ago
      You don't need citizenship at all. Not even permanent or temporary residency. You will become a tax resident of a state even if you have just a tourist visa. You don't need to own the property either, a rental apartment is just fine. Even living in a hotel would work if you can prove it was your "base of operations" during that time. Not sure what's the distinction between rich and wealthy, sounds the same to me.

6nf 4y ago

Then you gotta charge for parking the same way

halgir 4y ago
Parking is a service that you receive in exchange for money. Our society has accepted that those who have more money are able to purchase more goods and services. Fines are not payment for services rendered, but a deterrent for behavior we don't want anyone to engage in. If it doesn't scale, then it's only a deterrent for those who can't afford it.
melenaboija 4y ago
Yes you probably could but taxes, that are already proportional, will cover most of the cost of the parking.
- doctor_eval 4y ago
  Sales tax isn't proportional.
  - melenaboija 4y ago
    Agree, but I was talking about the cost of parking including the fines.
marcinzm 4y ago
That is effectively the case. Taxes, in theory, scale with income and a lot of the car infrastructure is tax subsidized including street parking.

eviks 4y ago

hurt you financially = cost of doing business

thunky 4y ago

> Yes. Fines should be a percentage of income. Then Jeff Bezos, who has billions, can pay $0 fines since AMZN produces no dividend income. Even if you count capital gains income, he could just take a big tax hit one year and then be in the clear for life. Not to mention, he'll also qualify for welfare because of his $0 income.

timbit42 4y ago

> Fines should be a percentage of income. or better: net worth.