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I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the problem with this study is it is not blind. Clearly the sleeper knows if they are wearing an eye mask with holes that le

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the problem with this study is it is not blind. Clearly the sleeper knows if they are wearing an eye mask with holes that let in light, or if they are wearing a complete eye mask. I work in the neurotech/sleeptech space, and it should be possible to do this study in a double blind method. In a sleep lab, with EEG, monitor the users sleep state. When they are in any non-wake state ambient light could be brought into the room. In one instance, no light is applied, in another light is applied. Don't use the usual camera's that are used in a sleep lab. In such a method the trial is double blind, but also much more expensive than the method used.

TheSpiceIsLife 3y ago
Problems I see with this method: Life isn't a double blind randomised placebo controlled study. There is no group consisting entirely of me I can control for. Also, an absence of ambient light isn't the same as wearing a sleep mask. The home user can't enter a sleep lab and wear electrodes as a convenience.
pazimzadeh 3y ago
Good point, on top of the placebo effect it could be that the slight pressure is comforting
taeric 3y ago
I'm not sure I follow? They were not wearing a mask in all treatments, such that it isn't like they were relying on tricking people by having a mask that didn't actually block light. I agree that it could be something other than the mask. For instance, it could be that it is the simple matter of having them try something that led to an increase. But I'm not as clear on how this is an obvious "flaw" with the study. Or are you saying you would want the double blind to fully rule out light, and we would be back to asking "why did the masks do something?"
- ethanbond 3y ago
  GP is saying the participant knows they are/are not wearing the mask when they go to sleep and this could skew the results, e.g. by expecting to get a better night’s sleep via the sleep mask, they experience less sleep anxiety, sleep better, learn better. This tells you something different than “ambient light while sleeping negatively impacts learning.”
  - taeric 3y ago
    Right. But I would (edit: not) say that is a flaw with this study. Just something else we can try and rule out. That is, if you did manage to "double blind" it and got no difference in treatments, that means we don't understand the mechanism in this study. It does not, necessarily, mean that there are no results in this study. RIght?
    - dgacmu 3y ago
      The placebo effect is really powerful. When you see a study like this, one of your first questions should be "how can I tell whether or not this is just placebo?"
      - taeric 3y ago
        Sorta. If you are worried about placebo/nocebo, than I see obvious paths where you wind up in with your incentives being to lie to people. Either about the possible ill effects, or about enthusiasm that they will work. Yes, we have evidence that this influences things. That is usually why people replicate without telling people why they were doing something. In this study, they didn't say "we are testing you with masks to see if they make you test better." It was more, we are testing you with and without masks to see if we spot differences. I could easily envision some folks expecting the result to go the other way. More, if that is the concern, you need to test doing that. Don't make it blind, reverse the message. Tell them you expect them to be less alert wearing a mask, and see if that holds. Right?
        dgacmu 3y ago
q7xvh97o2pDhNrh 3y ago
I like this idea, as well as the irony of the original study being not blind. ;) Another possibility might be to design the functionality into the mask itself. When it detects the user is asleep, it could open up to let in light (or not) based on which cohort the user is in. The detection could be done by having sensors in the mask itself, or it could just pair with the user's existing fitness/sleep tracker of choice via Bluetooth.
- dp-hackernews 3y ago
  I get the pun, but you highlight a potentially assumed unnecessary absence of additional cohorts - how does this effect people who are blind, both blind from birth and those that have lost their sight at some period of their life, and for a select period of time. Are we to assume that this study excludes these two additional cohorts, and if so why or how has that been established?
myhf 3y ago
But that's testing the effect of eliminating ambient light, not the effect of wearing an eye mask.
someweirdperson 3y ago
Maybe test mask vs. stuffed animal. The latter is probably at least as effective as the mask.
nebulousthree 3y ago
I don't think it matters that they knew. Either ambient light hits your eyes or it doesn't. What about other factors that make it sleep-mask specific like the feeling of textile over your eyes, or the strain of the strap around your head? Your experiment tests other things.
- stu2b50 3y ago
  The placebo effect is strong, especially for things like alertness. There’s been studies purposefully showing that participants who think they’ve been given a mental stimulant perform better in cognitive tasks in a statistically significant way, for instance.
  - oh_sigh 3y ago
    Well, that's good enough for me. Why would I care if it is really a placebo or real, if it gets me the desired effects?
    - TeMPOraL 3y ago
      Because placebo works only until you realize you're being fed bullshit, while the real thing continues to work even as your beliefs change.
      - yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
        I was under the impression that placebos work even when you know they're placebos.
        kleene_op 3y ago
        Are people who have been given the information that they're using a placebo trully convinced of that or do they just have a mental barrier preventing them from further acknowledging it and just resign to respond: "yeah, I know it's just a placebo"
1MachineElf 3y ago
>the problem with this study is it is not blind Are the sleepers not blinded by the eye masks? /s
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
atkailash 3y ago
[dead]
coldtea 3y ago
>I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the problem with this study is it is not blind Well, the group wearing the eye mask was effectively blind for the night
andy_ppp 3y ago
I have tried many masks and they always irritate me when I'm sleeping. I never manage to get to sleep easily with one on so I'm not sure your assumption everyone thinks they sleep better with a mask on is true. If the study used a more transparent material and didn't tell the participants or small holes I would think light was certainly the issue. Why do you think the participants were guessing correctly what the study was observing - it seems likely they were not told and went in without judgment - I certainly wouldn't have noticed if the mask was a bit thin? It seems more likely to be a real difference, we know circadian rhythms are controlled by light and food timing so I don't see why it wouldn't be a correct result.
- bradknowles 3y ago
  I've tried many different types of eye masks, and it has taken me a while, but I have finally found ones that are both comfortable and do not contact my eyes or eyelashes while sleeping. There are many companies who make similar eye masks, but the ones I like look like these: https://a.co/d/igoKTZR https://a.co/d/igoKTZR My only problem now is that my CPAP mask is transparent, and so some light bleeds through there. If I could find an opaque CPAP mask, then I would be able to block out all outside light. As it is, I find that putting a pillow over my head over the CPAP mask blocks out most of the rest of the light that would otherwise get through the mask, and because of the CPAP mask I am still able to breathe underneath the pillow. I can tell you, it makes a huge difference for me to be able to block out the light. Almost as much of a life-changing event for me as getting the CPAP in the first place.
- born-jre 3y ago
  I have experimented with eye masks before, but found that they either made contact with my eyelids or caused me to sweat during sleep. However, I have now discovered that wearing a black t-shirt over my eyes works remarkably well. This allows for proper air flow and prevents sweating, while also avoiding any contact with my eyelids.
  - MAGZine 3y ago
    I wear a Manta when I need an eye mask, which has cups around the eyes so your eyelids do not contact anything. Recommended if you'd rather have a proper solution.
nescioquid 3y ago
Couldn't the protocol be set up like a psych experiment in which you misdirect the subject (making the sleeping mask incidental from the subject's perspective)? I'm assuming your objection is that the research biased the results by informing the subjects that they are testing the effect of sleeping masks on "episodic learning and alertness"?

TheSpiceIsLife 3y ago

Problems I see with this method: Life isn't a double blind randomised placebo controlled study. There is no group consisting entirely of me I can control for. Also, an absence of ambient light isn't the same as wearing a sleep mask. The home user can't enter a sleep lab and wear electrodes as a convenience.

pazimzadeh 3y ago

Good point, on top of the placebo effect it could be that the slight pressure is comforting

taeric 3y ago

I'm not sure I follow? They were not wearing a mask in all treatments, such that it isn't like they were relying on tricking people by having a mask that didn't actually block light. I agree that it could be something other than the mask. For instance, it could be that it is the simple matter of having them try something that led to an increase. But I'm not as clear on how this is an obvious "flaw" with the study. Or are you saying you would want the double blind to fully rule out light, and we would be back to asking "why did the masks do something?"

ethanbond 3y ago
GP is saying the participant knows they are/are not wearing the mask when they go to sleep and this could skew the results, e.g. by expecting to get a better night’s sleep via the sleep mask, they experience less sleep anxiety, sleep better, learn better. This tells you something different than “ambient light while sleeping negatively impacts learning.”
- taeric 3y ago
  Right. But I would (edit: not) say that is a flaw with this study. Just something else we can try and rule out. That is, if you did manage to "double blind" it and got no difference in treatments, that means we don't understand the mechanism in this study. It does not, necessarily, mean that there are no results in this study. RIght?
  - dgacmu 3y ago
    The placebo effect is really powerful. When you see a study like this, one of your first questions should be "how can I tell whether or not this is just placebo?"
    - taeric 3y ago
      Sorta. If you are worried about placebo/nocebo, than I see obvious paths where you wind up in with your incentives being to lie to people. Either about the possible ill effects, or about enthusiasm that they will work. Yes, we have evidence that this influences things. That is usually why people replicate without telling people why they were doing something. In this study, they didn't say "we are testing you with masks to see if they make you test better." It was more, we are testing you with and without masks to see if we spot differences. I could easily envision some folks expecting the result to go the other way. More, if that is the concern, you need to test doing that. Don't make it blind, reverse the message. Tell them you expect them to be less alert wearing a mask, and see if that holds. Right?
      - dgacmu 3y ago

q7xvh97o2pDhNrh 3y ago

I like this idea, as well as the irony of the original study being not blind. ;) Another possibility might be to design the functionality into the mask itself. When it detects the user is asleep, it could open up to let in light (or not) based on which cohort the user is in. The detection could be done by having sensors in the mask itself, or it could just pair with the user's existing fitness/sleep tracker of choice via Bluetooth.

dp-hackernews 3y ago
I get the pun, but you highlight a potentially assumed unnecessary absence of additional cohorts - how does this effect people who are blind, both blind from birth and those that have lost their sight at some period of their life, and for a select period of time. Are we to assume that this study excludes these two additional cohorts, and if so why or how has that been established?

myhf 3y ago

But that's testing the effect of eliminating ambient light, not the effect of wearing an eye mask.

someweirdperson 3y ago

Maybe test mask vs. stuffed animal. The latter is probably at least as effective as the mask.

nebulousthree 3y ago

I don't think it matters that they knew. Either ambient light hits your eyes or it doesn't. What about other factors that make it sleep-mask specific like the feeling of textile over your eyes, or the strain of the strap around your head? Your experiment tests other things.

stu2b50 3y ago
The placebo effect is strong, especially for things like alertness. There’s been studies purposefully showing that participants who think they’ve been given a mental stimulant perform better in cognitive tasks in a statistically significant way, for instance.
- oh_sigh 3y ago
  Well, that's good enough for me. Why would I care if it is really a placebo or real, if it gets me the desired effects?
  - TeMPOraL 3y ago
    Because placebo works only until you realize you're being fed bullshit, while the real thing continues to work even as your beliefs change.
    - yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
      I was under the impression that placebos work even when you know they're placebos.
      - kleene_op 3y ago
        Are people who have been given the information that they're using a placebo trully convinced of that or do they just have a mental barrier preventing them from further acknowledging it and just resign to respond: "yeah, I know it's just a placebo"

1MachineElf 3y ago

>the problem with this study is it is not blind Are the sleepers not blinded by the eye masks? /s

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

atkailash 3y ago

[dead]

coldtea 3y ago

>I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the problem with this study is it is not blind Well, the group wearing the eye mask was effectively blind for the night

andy_ppp 3y ago

I have tried many masks and they always irritate me when I'm sleeping. I never manage to get to sleep easily with one on so I'm not sure your assumption everyone thinks they sleep better with a mask on is true. If the study used a more transparent material and didn't tell the participants or small holes I would think light was certainly the issue. Why do you think the participants were guessing correctly what the study was observing - it seems likely they were not told and went in without judgment - I certainly wouldn't have noticed if the mask was a bit thin? It seems more likely to be a real difference, we know circadian rhythms are controlled by light and food timing so I don't see why it wouldn't be a correct result.

bradknowles 3y ago
I've tried many different types of eye masks, and it has taken me a while, but I have finally found ones that are both comfortable and do not contact my eyes or eyelashes while sleeping. There are many companies who make similar eye masks, but the ones I like look like these: https://a.co/d/igoKTZR https://a.co/d/igoKTZR My only problem now is that my CPAP mask is transparent, and so some light bleeds through there. If I could find an opaque CPAP mask, then I would be able to block out all outside light. As it is, I find that putting a pillow over my head over the CPAP mask blocks out most of the rest of the light that would otherwise get through the mask, and because of the CPAP mask I am still able to breathe underneath the pillow. I can tell you, it makes a huge difference for me to be able to block out the light. Almost as much of a life-changing event for me as getting the CPAP in the first place.
born-jre 3y ago
I have experimented with eye masks before, but found that they either made contact with my eyelids or caused me to sweat during sleep. However, I have now discovered that wearing a black t-shirt over my eyes works remarkably well. This allows for proper air flow and prevents sweating, while also avoiding any contact with my eyelids.
- MAGZine 3y ago
  I wear a Manta when I need an eye mask, which has cups around the eyes so your eyelids do not contact anything. Recommended if you'd rather have a proper solution.

nescioquid 3y ago

Couldn't the protocol be set up like a psych experiment in which you misdirect the subject (making the sleeping mask incidental from the subject's perspective)? I'm assuming your objection is that the research biased the results by informing the subjects that they are testing the effect of sleeping masks on "episodic learning and alertness"?