5 ms·

I disagree with your premise. I have an iPhone (forced upon me by work) and it's ridiculous how many links still try to open in safari or Apple maps. I've trie

I disagree with your premise. I have an iPhone (forced upon me by work) and it's ridiculous how many links still try to open in safari or Apple maps. I've tried to configure it for years and I've literally uninstalled Apple maps, but half the time iPhone keeps wanting me to reinstall it when I click a link or address. And a lot of url links open in safari instead of chrome or Firefox. Same with many other things - I can install whatever browser I want as long as it's a skin on their browser. I can install any keyboard I want as long as it's just a skin on their keyboard. I can install any app I want as long as it comes from Apple store. Etc etc etc. Yep, I vehemently disagree with your premise :). I think MS is looking at Apple's walled garden and saying "what if we could get away with some of that?" (not disagreeing that dark patterns are despicable! My wife knows the scream that comes from my home office when I try to get iPhone or windows to do something I want! I just disagree that mobile os world is some paragon of user centric benevolence :)

hunter2_ 4y ago
> when I click a link or address A link to what domain? For clicking addresses, I kind of get it: the author of the text didn't link it at all, so the OS (or whatever) gets to decide how to enhance the presentation which can include promoting a specific app. Not great, but fine. For clicking links, it should definitely just use the browser unless an installed app's manifest has the domain registered.
eddieroger 4y ago
Apple doesn't make it easy, but they don't make it impossible either, and at this point it's on the ecosystem to show Apple they want more of this by embracing what they have. So, sure, map links tend to open Apple Maps by default, but they can offer the user the choice to use other mapping apps, which they can check for by seeing if the OS will respond to their open url scheme. Harder? Sure. Impossible? Nope. And for what it's worth, open a directions link from Google some time - for me, it opens Google Maps, which I do have installed, but don't prefer using. I choose Apple Maps because I'd rather have Watch notifications while I drive, but Google doesn't offer me that choice.
- capableweb 4y ago
  > because I'd rather have Watch notifications while I drive Off topic, but you're not actually looking at your watch while you drive right?
  - ascagnel_ 4y ago
    If you're navigating with a watch on, it'll notify you of upcoming turns (either through vibrations or by making a turn signal-like noise) without ducking/pausing your music.
    - 8ytecoder 4y ago
      Uses different haptics for left and right turns as well.
    - jkubicek 4y ago
      And, the taps on your wrist are unique depending on which direction you need to turn, so you can theoretically navigate via the wrist-taps alone.
      - modoc 4y ago
        This is wonderful for when you're on a motorcycle going somewhere new. Absolute game changer!
  - eddieroger 3y ago
    No I am not. The Watch taps my wrist as I drive with different patterns for left or right. If I can't tell which it's indicating, I can quickly look at my infotainment screen and see the map. But I am not driving while looking at my Watch, no. That would be very dangerous.
- throwaway173738 4y ago
  I’d personally like the choice to be enforced by the OS. I’m sick of Google’s popup for opening links in gmail. It confuses my partner into thinking she has the link open in her regular safari, but the option to actually do that is the only one with no icon. On top of that they’re really trying to railroad people into using chrome, and she’s accidentally hit that option a few times. I wish the justice department would treat that as anti-competitive.
thesuitonym 4y ago
You sound like a person who never even tried. Open Settings > Safari > Default Browser App, and select the app you want. It's really that easy.
- seydor 4y ago
  I suppose you aren't aware that they are all the same browser because apple doesn't allow competing browser engines
  - hbn 4y ago
    The person above complaining about links defaulting to open in Safari was obviously talking about the app and not the rendering engine
  - 0x457 4y ago
    They are the same, but Firefox on my iPad syncs with my real firefox on: linux, windows and android. I can send tabs to and from it, sync passwords etc. What rendering engine is used is completely irrelevant to me most of the time.
- whimsicalism 4y ago
  Is this true for Maps and most critically Voice Assistants? How do I get Siri to navigate using Google Maps? How do I replace Siri with a different voice assistant? You can't for either of those questions. Nevermind that changing the browser doesn't actually change jack because Apple doesn't allow competition in the browser engine space. All in all, it is just hard for me to take seriously an opinion saying that Apple allows for unrestrained competition on its devices and Microsoft is the big bad in this space. Historically, maybe true - but not even close to true now imo.
  - WhipeeDip 4y ago
    You can actually ask Siri to navigate with Google Maps by appending "using Google Maps" to a request. So for example, "navigate home using Google Maps". However, clicking an address in a message and being told to install Apple Maps is super aggravating and I'm not sure if there's a way around that...
kitsunesoba 4y ago
> I can install any keyboard I want as long as it's just a skin on their keyboard. As an iOS app dev with a hobby project iOS keyboard, this is false. Third party iOS keyboards have just as much control over the keyboard UI and how each key (if it even has keys — your “keyboard” can be literally anything) interacts with text as a full fledged app does. In fact there is no way to “skin” the standard keyboard, but I wish there were because building a decent touch keyboard is actually quite difficult and that’d reduce the workload quite a lot.
- NikolaNovak 4y ago
  I'm extremely interested in this; how come none of the keyboards I've tried depart from the same layout as Apple? Is it strict adherence to guidelines rather than technical restriction then? To wit, some of the features that same-named apps/keyboards give me on android but not on iPhone include "hold key for alternative character" or button to "force" numpad. As well all keyboards I've tried have same layout and sizing as the original one. I assumed it was imposed on them in some way I guess?
  - kitsunesoba 4y ago
    I don't think there's much, if anything, in the way of App Store guidelines for keyboards except that they do things with the text field the user currently has highlighted. For instance the app Fantastical comes with a "keyboard" that inputs dates that are open on your calendar[0] and there exist a few rather nonstandard keyboards like Typewise[1]. Absence of features common on Android boards I would guess comes down to those patterns not being familiar to (and thus, not desired by) iOS users or in some cases software patents (there have been a few cases of keyboard devs receiving cease and desist notices from patent holders for using some UI pattern). [0]: https://flexibits.com/img/help/fantastical-ios/en/f3-openings-keyboard-ios.png https://flexibits.com/img/help/fantastical-ios/en/f3-opening... [1]: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/typewise-custom-keyboard/id1470215025 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/typewise-custom-keyboard/id147...
  - zimpenfish 4y ago
    I have MessageEase installed as a keyboard. https://www.exideas.com/ME/index.php https://www.exideas.com/ME/index.php Somewhat different from the original keyboard layout. (The paucity of alternatives is probably down to patents and licensing.)
hospitalJail 4y ago
>walled garden Walled garden is marketing speak. You should not use it.
- NikolaNovak 4y ago
  Fair enough; what is the recommended term that is applicable?
  - LocalH 4y ago
    “jail”
  - hospitalJail 4y ago
    Here are some >Closed ecosystem >Restricted platform >Proprietary systems >Walled Prison/Jail(this has negative bias, but may fit depending on the context) >Curated platform I'm sure you can get objective phrases from chatgpt too.
0x457 4y ago
Yes, but Apple offers a neat well maintained garden that is the greatest thing as long as everything you need is there, and you don't eat any apples. MS looks at it and thinks their frat party mansion (3 bedroom duplex) can do the same. Apple gets away with it because that what their target audience want. MS target audience doesn't want it. If I wanted a walled garden - I would use Apple, they clearly know how to maintain it.
- arendtio 3y ago
  Actually I don't get how Apple always gets away with the sh*t they are doing. All Smartphones on this planet use the same USB-C charging port except iPhones. And as far as I remember, the European Union requires the manufacturers by law to use USB-C, because before the law every phone came with a different power adapter. Next example, OS and browsers: Every Operating System has to offer the user the choice of which browser they want to use. Except for Apple, they offer a choice of which UI you want to use, but on iOS the browser engine is always Safari (which kills competition hard on iOS devices). No, I am not a big fan of that Microsoft move, because I think they should respect the users browser choice. But I am even less a fan of Apple doing things nobody else is allowed (for good reason).
  - rekoil 3y ago
    > All Smartphones on this planet use the same USB-C charging port except iPhones. And as far as I remember, the European Union requires the manufacturers by law to use USB-C, because before the law every phone came with a different power adapter. The law you're talking about here specified that the charger itself must have a standard USB-C port. Apple gets away with it because 1. they don't even bundle a charger anymore, and 2. they ship a cable that allows the phone to be connected to a USB-C charger (Lightning to USB-C cable). The new law that takes effect some time in 2024 for smartphones (amongst other devices) stipulates that the port on the smart device must be USB-C. Under this new law, essentially if a device is large enough then the port must be USB-C. > Next example, OS and browsers: Every Operating System has to offer the user the choice of which browser they want to use. Except for Apple, they offer a choice of which UI you want to use, but on iOS the browser engine is always Safari (which kills competition hard on iOS devices). Another new EU law (the Digital Markets Act) takes aim at this specific issue actually. I get where you're coming from, and yeah sure one could argue that giants like Apple, Google, Microsoft should do better, but in the end they are corporations who will do what is best for their shareholders, as such I am not in the least surprised over actions they take like the ones discussed in your comment and the article that started this discussion. I think it's great that governmental regulation is finally coming to set the game rules for things like how general purpose operating systems must allow device owners the ability to install their own software (including real actual browsers with their own engines and everything), how communication apps must support cross-network communication upon request, and to standardise how we charge our smart devices.
trinsic2 4y ago
There all doing the same shit just in vary levels of degree and focus. If anyone thinks different, they are only fooling themselves. Apple is the most user-hostile company I have ever seen from a individual freedom centric standpoint, but they are good at hiding it. They think everyone outside of the organization should follow their line of thinking. Apple wants to be the gatekeeper of everything and that doesn't work in a free society. Deep down, I think people want to be free of external influence. Microsoft only cares about maximizing profits and doing whatever it takes to get there. I guess there is no difference between the two except that apple tries to justify there behavior behind a superiority complex.
rekoil 3y ago
Email is the most annoying one. There's an old API that some apps use that always uses Mail.app, regardless of what my "default email client" is set to. SUPER annoying as I only have my work email in Mail.app and it's usually for things like bug reports or news article feedback, you know, things I do on my free time which have nothing to do with work. The bug report ones is especially annoying as those emails are often pre-populated with a bunch of data that isn't so easy to just copy into a new email in a different mail client, like support attachments, etc.
s3p 3y ago
On WINDOWS. On a DESKTOP COMPUTER. On your phone, the walled garden approach is fine. On a desktop machine in which you control, it is not.

hunter2_ 4y ago

> when I click a link or address A link to what domain? For clicking addresses, I kind of get it: the author of the text didn't link it at all, so the OS (or whatever) gets to decide how to enhance the presentation which can include promoting a specific app. Not great, but fine. For clicking links, it should definitely just use the browser unless an installed app's manifest has the domain registered.

eddieroger 4y ago

Apple doesn't make it easy, but they don't make it impossible either, and at this point it's on the ecosystem to show Apple they want more of this by embracing what they have. So, sure, map links tend to open Apple Maps by default, but they can offer the user the choice to use other mapping apps, which they can check for by seeing if the OS will respond to their open url scheme. Harder? Sure. Impossible? Nope. And for what it's worth, open a directions link from Google some time - for me, it opens Google Maps, which I do have installed, but don't prefer using. I choose Apple Maps because I'd rather have Watch notifications while I drive, but Google doesn't offer me that choice.

capableweb 4y ago
> because I'd rather have Watch notifications while I drive Off topic, but you're not actually looking at your watch while you drive right?
- ascagnel_ 4y ago
  If you're navigating with a watch on, it'll notify you of upcoming turns (either through vibrations or by making a turn signal-like noise) without ducking/pausing your music.
  - 8ytecoder 4y ago
    Uses different haptics for left and right turns as well.
  - jkubicek 4y ago
    And, the taps on your wrist are unique depending on which direction you need to turn, so you can theoretically navigate via the wrist-taps alone.
    - modoc 4y ago
      This is wonderful for when you're on a motorcycle going somewhere new. Absolute game changer!
- eddieroger 3y ago
  No I am not. The Watch taps my wrist as I drive with different patterns for left or right. If I can't tell which it's indicating, I can quickly look at my infotainment screen and see the map. But I am not driving while looking at my Watch, no. That would be very dangerous.
throwaway173738 4y ago
I’d personally like the choice to be enforced by the OS. I’m sick of Google’s popup for opening links in gmail. It confuses my partner into thinking she has the link open in her regular safari, but the option to actually do that is the only one with no icon. On top of that they’re really trying to railroad people into using chrome, and she’s accidentally hit that option a few times. I wish the justice department would treat that as anti-competitive.

thesuitonym 4y ago

You sound like a person who never even tried. Open Settings > Safari > Default Browser App, and select the app you want. It's really that easy.

seydor 4y ago
I suppose you aren't aware that they are all the same browser because apple doesn't allow competing browser engines
- hbn 4y ago
  The person above complaining about links defaulting to open in Safari was obviously talking about the app and not the rendering engine
- 0x457 4y ago
  They are the same, but Firefox on my iPad syncs with my real firefox on: linux, windows and android. I can send tabs to and from it, sync passwords etc. What rendering engine is used is completely irrelevant to me most of the time.
whimsicalism 4y ago
Is this true for Maps and most critically Voice Assistants? How do I get Siri to navigate using Google Maps? How do I replace Siri with a different voice assistant? You can't for either of those questions. Nevermind that changing the browser doesn't actually change jack because Apple doesn't allow competition in the browser engine space. All in all, it is just hard for me to take seriously an opinion saying that Apple allows for unrestrained competition on its devices and Microsoft is the big bad in this space. Historically, maybe true - but not even close to true now imo.
- WhipeeDip 4y ago
  You can actually ask Siri to navigate with Google Maps by appending "using Google Maps" to a request. So for example, "navigate home using Google Maps". However, clicking an address in a message and being told to install Apple Maps is super aggravating and I'm not sure if there's a way around that...

kitsunesoba 4y ago

> I can install any keyboard I want as long as it's just a skin on their keyboard. As an iOS app dev with a hobby project iOS keyboard, this is false. Third party iOS keyboards have just as much control over the keyboard UI and how each key (if it even has keys — your “keyboard” can be literally anything) interacts with text as a full fledged app does. In fact there is no way to “skin” the standard keyboard, but I wish there were because building a decent touch keyboard is actually quite difficult and that’d reduce the workload quite a lot.

NikolaNovak 4y ago
I'm extremely interested in this; how come none of the keyboards I've tried depart from the same layout as Apple? Is it strict adherence to guidelines rather than technical restriction then? To wit, some of the features that same-named apps/keyboards give me on android but not on iPhone include "hold key for alternative character" or button to "force" numpad. As well all keyboards I've tried have same layout and sizing as the original one. I assumed it was imposed on them in some way I guess?
- kitsunesoba 4y ago
  I don't think there's much, if anything, in the way of App Store guidelines for keyboards except that they do things with the text field the user currently has highlighted. For instance the app Fantastical comes with a "keyboard" that inputs dates that are open on your calendar[0] and there exist a few rather nonstandard keyboards like Typewise[1]. Absence of features common on Android boards I would guess comes down to those patterns not being familiar to (and thus, not desired by) iOS users or in some cases software patents (there have been a few cases of keyboard devs receiving cease and desist notices from patent holders for using some UI pattern). [0]: https://flexibits.com/img/help/fantastical-ios/en/f3-openings-keyboard-ios.png https://flexibits.com/img/help/fantastical-ios/en/f3-opening... [1]: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/typewise-custom-keyboard/id1470215025 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/typewise-custom-keyboard/id147...
- zimpenfish 4y ago
  I have MessageEase installed as a keyboard. https://www.exideas.com/ME/index.php https://www.exideas.com/ME/index.php Somewhat different from the original keyboard layout. (The paucity of alternatives is probably down to patents and licensing.)

hospitalJail 4y ago

>walled garden Walled garden is marketing speak. You should not use it.

NikolaNovak 4y ago
Fair enough; what is the recommended term that is applicable?
- LocalH 4y ago
  “jail”
- hospitalJail 4y ago
  Here are some >Closed ecosystem >Restricted platform >Proprietary systems >Walled Prison/Jail(this has negative bias, but may fit depending on the context) >Curated platform I'm sure you can get objective phrases from chatgpt too.

0x457 4y ago

Yes, but Apple offers a neat well maintained garden that is the greatest thing as long as everything you need is there, and you don't eat any apples. MS looks at it and thinks their frat party mansion (3 bedroom duplex) can do the same. Apple gets away with it because that what their target audience want. MS target audience doesn't want it. If I wanted a walled garden - I would use Apple, they clearly know how to maintain it.

arendtio 3y ago
Actually I don't get how Apple always gets away with the sh*t they are doing. All Smartphones on this planet use the same USB-C charging port except iPhones. And as far as I remember, the European Union requires the manufacturers by law to use USB-C, because before the law every phone came with a different power adapter. Next example, OS and browsers: Every Operating System has to offer the user the choice of which browser they want to use. Except for Apple, they offer a choice of which UI you want to use, but on iOS the browser engine is always Safari (which kills competition hard on iOS devices). No, I am not a big fan of that Microsoft move, because I think they should respect the users browser choice. But I am even less a fan of Apple doing things nobody else is allowed (for good reason).
- rekoil 3y ago
  > All Smartphones on this planet use the same USB-C charging port except iPhones. And as far as I remember, the European Union requires the manufacturers by law to use USB-C, because before the law every phone came with a different power adapter. The law you're talking about here specified that the charger itself must have a standard USB-C port. Apple gets away with it because 1. they don't even bundle a charger anymore, and 2. they ship a cable that allows the phone to be connected to a USB-C charger (Lightning to USB-C cable). The new law that takes effect some time in 2024 for smartphones (amongst other devices) stipulates that the port on the smart device must be USB-C. Under this new law, essentially if a device is large enough then the port must be USB-C. > Next example, OS and browsers: Every Operating System has to offer the user the choice of which browser they want to use. Except for Apple, they offer a choice of which UI you want to use, but on iOS the browser engine is always Safari (which kills competition hard on iOS devices). Another new EU law (the Digital Markets Act) takes aim at this specific issue actually. I get where you're coming from, and yeah sure one could argue that giants like Apple, Google, Microsoft should do better, but in the end they are corporations who will do what is best for their shareholders, as such I am not in the least surprised over actions they take like the ones discussed in your comment and the article that started this discussion. I think it's great that governmental regulation is finally coming to set the game rules for things like how general purpose operating systems must allow device owners the ability to install their own software (including real actual browsers with their own engines and everything), how communication apps must support cross-network communication upon request, and to standardise how we charge our smart devices.

trinsic2 4y ago

There all doing the same shit just in vary levels of degree and focus. If anyone thinks different, they are only fooling themselves. Apple is the most user-hostile company I have ever seen from a individual freedom centric standpoint, but they are good at hiding it. They think everyone outside of the organization should follow their line of thinking. Apple wants to be the gatekeeper of everything and that doesn't work in a free society. Deep down, I think people want to be free of external influence. Microsoft only cares about maximizing profits and doing whatever it takes to get there. I guess there is no difference between the two except that apple tries to justify there behavior behind a superiority complex.

rekoil 3y ago

Email is the most annoying one. There's an old API that some apps use that always uses Mail.app, regardless of what my "default email client" is set to. SUPER annoying as I only have my work email in Mail.app and it's usually for things like bug reports or news article feedback, you know, things I do on my free time which have nothing to do with work. The bug report ones is especially annoying as those emails are often pre-populated with a bunch of data that isn't so easy to just copy into a new email in a different mail client, like support attachments, etc.

s3p 3y ago

On WINDOWS. On a DESKTOP COMPUTER. On your phone, the walled garden approach is fine. On a desktop machine in which you control, it is not.