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08 was artificially low because many banks got merged at a fire sale. Wachovia, Merrill Lynch, Bear Stearns, and National City stick out. Other financial instit

08 was artificially low because many banks got merged at a fire sale. Wachovia, Merrill Lynch, Bear Stearns, and National City stick out. Other financial institutions got essentially nationalized and stock became mostly worthless like Citi and AIG, although the government sold most of their stock in 2011 Credit Suisse is about the same size as SVB, Signature Bank, and First Republic combined but it got “acquired” by UBS at a price 60% below its last trading price in a deal where $17 billion of debt was wiped out so it doesn’t count here

btilly 3y ago
Credit Suisse is not included because it is a Swiss bank, not an FDIC insured US bank. Lehman Brothers is also not included because, even though it was a US bank, it was an investment bank with no FDIC insured deposits. It was around the size of all of this year's failures, combined. As you note, bank bailouts that were not FDIC bankruptcies are also not included.
- jeremyjh 3y ago
  I think GP knows this, but I also think you know that the graph is trying to paint a particular picture, and that picture is misleading because a lot of information is missing. We are not in the midst of a financial crisis that approaches 2008, and the graph is trying to make us think something different.
  - btilly 3y ago
    I know nothing of the sort. I think someone found an interesting dataset, tried to visualize it, and thought it looked interesting. I doubt that there was any motive to the dataset other than, "Here's what I get from the FDIC, what does it look like?" Then shared code and source so that anyone else could reproduce it. If you can find another data source that gives a fuller picture, you should. But compiling these data sources takes work. And the ones you get are all going to be a particular slice that represents some things but not others. I did not personally find it misleading.
  - lazide 3y ago
    Not in an ‘08 sized crisis - yet. Wait until commercial property debt finally ‘looks down’. It’s been running off the cliff for a long time already, and is in exactly the same boat as the securities that took out SVB, etc.
- igravious 3y ago
  And Bear Sterns?
- FormerBandmate 3y ago
  I know all of that, but they are still important caveats. We are not in a worse place than 08 (yet)
rrrrrrrrrrrryan 3y ago
It depends on what we're trying to visualize. From an investor's perspective, a bank whose assets get sold for pennies on the dollar in a fire sale is essentially a failure. Lehmann Brothers was also a massive (investment) bank failure with huge second order effects on the economy. This graphic seems to be modeling things from a taxpayer perspective. These banks failed and the government needed to step in to do something to ensure people could get their deposits.
- jeremyjh 3y ago
  FDIC premiums are not payed by taxpayers. What we're visualizing here are bank failures assumed by FDIC. The too big to fail banks didn't technically fail, but to give an accurate picture of a financial crisis they should be on the graph.
  - haldujai 3y ago
    Agree, this representation also makes WaMu’s failure look like the worst in recent history but it felt like one of the smaller problems at the time with what was going on with the investment banks, Fannie/Freddie and AIG.
  - _heimdall 3y ago
    > FDIC premiums are not payed by taxpayers Tax payers are legally required to pay taxes in USD. I'm not actually sure if the IRS technically accepts cash but if so it would be extremely rare. Meaning all tax payers have a bank account and ultimately foot the bill even though it is technically funneled through the banks' books first.
    - majormajor 3y ago
      "Footing the bill by having a bank account" is one of those very-hard-to-picture-or-feel things in days when most bank accounts are "free" and these banks have so many lines of business. E.g. am I paying for FRBs bailout by increased loan application fees if I buy a house or car or such? That's what I'd imagine, or maybe it's just that maybe otherwise savings accounts would pay a bit more interest or something?

btilly 3y ago

Credit Suisse is not included because it is a Swiss bank, not an FDIC insured US bank. Lehman Brothers is also not included because, even though it was a US bank, it was an investment bank with no FDIC insured deposits. It was around the size of all of this year's failures, combined. As you note, bank bailouts that were not FDIC bankruptcies are also not included.

jeremyjh 3y ago
I think GP knows this, but I also think you know that the graph is trying to paint a particular picture, and that picture is misleading because a lot of information is missing. We are not in the midst of a financial crisis that approaches 2008, and the graph is trying to make us think something different.
- btilly 3y ago
  I know nothing of the sort. I think someone found an interesting dataset, tried to visualize it, and thought it looked interesting. I doubt that there was any motive to the dataset other than, "Here's what I get from the FDIC, what does it look like?" Then shared code and source so that anyone else could reproduce it. If you can find another data source that gives a fuller picture, you should. But compiling these data sources takes work. And the ones you get are all going to be a particular slice that represents some things but not others. I did not personally find it misleading.
- lazide 3y ago
  Not in an ‘08 sized crisis - yet. Wait until commercial property debt finally ‘looks down’. It’s been running off the cliff for a long time already, and is in exactly the same boat as the securities that took out SVB, etc.
igravious 3y ago
And Bear Sterns?
FormerBandmate 3y ago
I know all of that, but they are still important caveats. We are not in a worse place than 08 (yet)

rrrrrrrrrrrryan 3y ago

It depends on what we're trying to visualize. From an investor's perspective, a bank whose assets get sold for pennies on the dollar in a fire sale is essentially a failure. Lehmann Brothers was also a massive (investment) bank failure with huge second order effects on the economy. This graphic seems to be modeling things from a taxpayer perspective. These banks failed and the government needed to step in to do something to ensure people could get their deposits.

jeremyjh 3y ago
FDIC premiums are not payed by taxpayers. What we're visualizing here are bank failures assumed by FDIC. The too big to fail banks didn't technically fail, but to give an accurate picture of a financial crisis they should be on the graph.
- haldujai 3y ago
  Agree, this representation also makes WaMu’s failure look like the worst in recent history but it felt like one of the smaller problems at the time with what was going on with the investment banks, Fannie/Freddie and AIG.
- _heimdall 3y ago
  > FDIC premiums are not payed by taxpayers Tax payers are legally required to pay taxes in USD. I'm not actually sure if the IRS technically accepts cash but if so it would be extremely rare. Meaning all tax payers have a bank account and ultimately foot the bill even though it is technically funneled through the banks' books first.
  - majormajor 3y ago
    "Footing the bill by having a bank account" is one of those very-hard-to-picture-or-feel things in days when most bank accounts are "free" and these banks have so many lines of business. E.g. am I paying for FRBs bailout by increased loan application fees if I buy a house or car or such? That's what I'd imagine, or maybe it's just that maybe otherwise savings accounts would pay a bit more interest or something?