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I'm the CEO of Life360, Tile's parent company. I chimed in on another comment but adding to the conversation directly here. I'm biased, but I am surprised how l

I'm the CEO of Life360, Tile's parent company. I chimed in on another comment but adding to the conversation directly here. I'm biased, but I am surprised how little pushback this is getting as AirTags explicitly are NOT meant to deter theft - to combat stalking (which is exceedingly rare) Apple notifies you if a tag you do not own is near you. That goes for thieves - they will be told an AirTag is nearby. At Tile we just launched an Anti-Theft feature where you can turn off stalking notifications if you share your government issued ID and agree to extremely stringent penalties for misuse, including a large fine. All Life360 users are now scanning for Tile devices, and that equates to over 10% of all phones in the country, so our network in any moderately dense area is almost as good as Apple's. And, we are cross-platform. https://chrishulls.medium.com/tile-is-taking-a-different-approach-to-the-bluetooth-industrys-theft-and-stalking-problems-bd92d3ae4f3c https://chrishulls.medium.com/tile-is-taking-a-different-app... We've put a ton of thought into this problem so happy to answer any questions.

scrapcode 3y ago
Wouldn't the notification that an AirTag is located somewhere in the vehicle they're thinking of stealing deter them from stealing it?
- jljljl 3y ago
  Not if it helps them find and remove the AirTag. It might have a deterring effect if the Airtag was somewhere hard to remove
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- bhaney 3y ago
  The notification doesn't fire until you've been moving along with the tag for a while, so the vehicle has already been stolen by the time the thieves are aware there's an AirTag present. I guess it might encourage them to dump the vehicle somewhere and abandon it, and you can then go pick it up using the AirTag's last known location. Doesn't really prevent the initial theft, but improves your chances for recovering the vehicle.
  - senkora 3y ago
    In my experience they just rip the AirTag off once it notifies them and then continue on their merry way.
    - jandrese 3y ago
      Seems like you would want to install it somewhere that is difficult to reach. Behind the dashboard for example, something that requires some work to access. Maybe wrapped in a bit of sound deadening material to make it harder to locate.
  - CamperBob2 3y ago
    How many car thieves carry iPhones? That Venn diagram will have an overlapping area, but I'll bet it's not that big.
    - rdtsc 3y ago
      They’d get one if they do it regularly. We catch the stupid ones but not all of them are stupid. I imagine most are aware of AirTags and could get the cheapest iPhone to detect them.
    - sgtnoodle 3y ago
      Why wouldn't most car thieves have iPhones?
      - CamperBob2 3y ago
        Because most people who aren't car thieves don't.
        sgtnoodle 3y ago
        Globally, sure. In the US, it looks like iOS is about 57% market share. I suspect it's even higher in New York City. It's pure speculation, but I wonder if the average car thief is more likely to own an iPhone as a form of status symbol? Or, is the average car thief more likely to be using burner phones from Walmart?
- c0llision 3y ago
  I don't have an AirTag, but I think if you get the notification you can make the tag play noise to help find it.
DLA 3y ago
1000% self serving.
culi 3y ago
We use a tracker to track our cat who we allow outdoors every day until an hour before sunset. We initially used a Tile and then decided to switch to an AirTag since it had a larger network. After 4 months of the air tag we're looking to switch back. Most of what the tags do is allow us to know when we're within X number of feet of our cat. The Tile had a better range and was lighter. But most importantly, we could have multiple accounts track the same Tile. Somehow Apple's airtags are missing this really critical feature that has come up again and again for us. If one of us is not home we need to be able to have another one of us be able to track her down but we simply cannot To be honest, the biggest reservation for me personally has been the company itself. It seems like an obvious industry where a very in-your-face-look-how-trustworthy-we-are approach to marketing like Mullvad the VPN service does is the right move. Mullvad's "only one price no matter how many years you buy it for" and "we never have a sale" on top of their just straight up "our quality speaks for itself" product seems like the perfect approach for a company where trust is so critical. In contrast, our Tile tried to force us into buying a brand new Tile when the battery died instead of just... letting us get a new battery. We had to cut it open and then buy special glue to glue it back together. I understand not all the models do this but... really? This doesn't seem like the market where you should be trading customer trust for a quick buck. Another thing I've yet to see from Tile/Chipolo/AirTag marketing is specific mention for our use-cases of ~~tracking~~(making easy to find) our outdoor cat. The network effect in this market is killer but this seems like an obvious audience that I'm shocked no one is targetting. People walk their dogs and people who let their cats out often have to check NextDoor or FB when something comes up. The point is that they talk. And the thing about the network effect with bluetooth trackers is that the network effect is localized. Meaning Apple can dominate NYC and Chipolo can dominate SF but if everyone in my suburb of Chicago for whatever reason happens to be using BlahBlah, I'm obviously gonna go with BlahBlah. I want my cat to be findable and the most important thing is what my neighbors are doing. A targeted approach seems obvious yet it's rare to see a product specifically marketed for that
- WWLink 3y ago
  > But most importantly, we could have multiple accounts track the same Tile. Somehow Apple's airtags are missing this really critical feature that has come up again and again for us. If one of us is not home we need to be able to have another one of us be able to track her down but we simply cannot I really hate Apple's insistence on using 1 account for everything (I mean EVERYTHING). I think it was what finally made me put my foot down on using iCloud and not wanting an apple card savings account. Plus their account management system sucks. It's the only system I've used that randomly forgets I'm logged in and demands me to log in again on my computers, phones, etc.
schwartzworld 3y ago
I bought a bunch of Tiles, and after a year the non-replaceable batteries failed and I got an offer to replace them at 15% off. Talk about garbage. Your product isn't good for anything if it just stops working after a year and needs a full replacement.
- c0llision 3y ago
  The newer models have replaceable batteries
  - seanp2k2 3y ago
    aside from the batteries, my Tile devices just straight up do not activate most of the time when I actually need them. I'll be a few feet away and they won't make any sound // won't connect when I try to ping them. AirTags have been FAR more reliable, and the direction finding is next-level.
    - crhulls 3y ago
      What platform are you on and what models? We in general have stats that show we are the most reliable product from a connectivity standpoint but I know there are still issues. Apologies you are in that bucket.
    - sgtnoodle 3y ago
      I'm a tile user, and indeed they seem a bit unreliable. I got one for my wife to keep in a known location because she misplaces her phone, and it works to signal the phone maybe 4 out of 5 times. I have one on my dog's collar, in a 3D printed enclosure. He got out a few weekends ago and ran all around town, and there weren't any breadcrumbs on the app. It's one of the mid-range models rather than the high-end ones, though. I have the high-end ones in our cars, and there's plenty of activity in the app. While I pay for the premium service, it's too much hassle to deal with the "free" battery replacements. I just buy bulk packs of coin cells on Amazon for $0.10 each.
      - 3y ago
bckygldstn 3y ago
What legal basis do you have for enforcing a $1mil civil penalty on stalkers? I'm not a lawyer, but it seems out of proportion to any damages sustained to Tile and likely unenforceable (not to mention uncollectable)? (FWIW: I think ID verification is a good non-technical deterrent to what is largely a non-techincal problem!)
- crhulls 3y ago
  It’s a terms of service you opt in to. Unclear how well it holds up in court but I dare anyone to try! We will go all out making an example out of people who abuse the system. So far we have not had a single report of misuse of the anti-theft feature.
  - nradov 3y ago
    I am not a stalker, but that agreement is almost certainly unenforceable in civil court. It violates the basic principles of consideration and equity. There is extensive case law on those areas, which you might want to look into before wasting people's time making empty threats and bullshiting about subjects you clearly don't understand.
    - crhulls 3y ago
      We are a public company with an audit and risk committee, multiple in-house lawyers, and external counsel. This was heavily discussed. Perhaps a court would limit the fine, but liquidated damages are a commonly used concept, and I don't think most people will tempt fate. Aggressive stalkers will buy dedicated GPS devices - this is a real roadblock.
      - nradov 3y ago
        I don't believe you. I think you're either lying, or misunderstood what your external counsel told you. If you want us to take your claim seriously then post copies of their opinion letters.
reaperducer 3y ago
stringent penalties for misuse, including a large fine. How exactly does a non-government entity impose a fine?
- crhulls 3y ago
  It’s a terms of service agreement. We would have to sue
  - sgtnoodle 3y ago
    Doesn't that seem like an unrealistic solution? If you actually start suing customers over terms of service, you're going to rapidly alienate your customer base. As a generally reasonable person, I have no interest in submitting anything more official than a valid credit card number to any company for lack of any legal need. It seems like it would be wise to avoid any pretense if you want to start selling covert tracking as a premium feature. Either do it or don't, but don't try to offload the moral implications onto your customers by "policing" them.
  - rdtsc 3y ago
    One day some bored and rich person might call you on it. You’d have to sue and win otherwise it will make it harder for others to take the claim seriously.
thedougd 3y ago
The Tile app constantly nags me in ugly ways to give it always on location permissions. How is that data used beyond helping people find their items?
- crhulls 3y ago
  We need that for background scanning; Apple just cheats and does the same without really asking. We have never sold Tile user data. We did have a data platform for Life360, which we believe did no harm, but we exited the business as it seemed to cause confusion and was a very small part of our revenue
  - thedougd 3y ago
    Thank you for your response. Please just let me say no once and for all. An occasional app banner is fine, but the system notifications is a step too far. That pushiness is what gave me the impression the location permission is more valuable to Tile than it is to me.
    - skzv 3y ago
      The system wouldn't work without location permission.
      - thedougd 3y ago
        It works fine to find your own devices by giving it permission 'while using the app'.
        renewiltord 3y ago
        The primary use case for these things requires other participants in the network. It doesn't look like this is a good product for you, yeah.
        thedougd 3y ago
hot_gril 3y ago
Yeah, the point of AirTags was never anti-theft.
- jrockway 3y ago
  The point was probably anti-theft but the tragedy of the commons got the best of them.
Fatnino 3y ago
There are third party apps that will see right through your "secret stalking mode". Basically, since apple doesn't give a damn about android users, they just unleashed airtags on the world with no way to be alerted you are being stalked if you only have android. Months later apple did release some half assed android app that doesn't do automatic scanning. So android users need to use something like airguard and that just so happens to also snitch on tiles.
- crhulls 3y ago
  It is all about deterrence levels. Thieves aren't completely dumb but they also take the path of least resistance. We are going to do things like rotating MACs that will make it harder for generic apps to be useful and further make thieves have to be more intentional.
  - Fatnino 3y ago
    Airguard can still see devices with rotating MACs. They just pollute the detection list a bit and draw attention to themselves.
- lstamour 3y ago
  Actually re non-iPhone detection: I’ve been annoyed by air tags beeping and it’s definitely the case that the new anti-stalking features on AirTags make them rather noisy and easy to find as a result. You have to get very creative with the hiding spot so that thieves know it exists (they can hear it) but they can’t find it, remove it or take out the battery to disable it. I’ve heard stories about people planting more than one AirTag on their bike, such as dropping one in the frame in a hard to reach area, and having opportunists decide to drop the bike off at a used store than deal with the AirTag they can’t find that keeps making noise.
- sgtnoodle 3y ago
  I'm curious how those third party apps work. Are they tailored to specific vendors' beacons, or do they operate generically on all BLE announcements? I'm curious because I have a medical implant that broadcasts a burst of announcement frames once every minute.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
onion2k 3y ago
At Tile we just launched an Anti-Theft feature where you can turn off stalking notifications if you share your government issued ID and agree to extremely stringent penalties for misuse, including a large fine. Does that mean Tile will be the preferred choice for wealthy stalkers?
cobertos 3y ago
I miss when I could just use the Tile app without the constant nags to upgrade to enter into a subscription. I already paid for my Tile devices at retail and only access them over Bluetooth locally anyway. Please stop trying to squeeze more money out of me.
usernew 3y ago
>put a ton of thought into this problem question: have you put any thought into the fact that you cannot fine Anyone, since you're not the government, and have zero authority to do so? "fine" lol. all you can do, is ban people from using your service and attempt to bully them by blatantly lying.

scrapcode 3y ago

Wouldn't the notification that an AirTag is located somewhere in the vehicle they're thinking of stealing deter them from stealing it?

jljljl 3y ago
Not if it helps them find and remove the AirTag. It might have a deterring effect if the Airtag was somewhere hard to remove
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
bhaney 3y ago
The notification doesn't fire until you've been moving along with the tag for a while, so the vehicle has already been stolen by the time the thieves are aware there's an AirTag present. I guess it might encourage them to dump the vehicle somewhere and abandon it, and you can then go pick it up using the AirTag's last known location. Doesn't really prevent the initial theft, but improves your chances for recovering the vehicle.
- senkora 3y ago
  In my experience they just rip the AirTag off once it notifies them and then continue on their merry way.
  - jandrese 3y ago
    Seems like you would want to install it somewhere that is difficult to reach. Behind the dashboard for example, something that requires some work to access. Maybe wrapped in a bit of sound deadening material to make it harder to locate.
- CamperBob2 3y ago
  How many car thieves carry iPhones? That Venn diagram will have an overlapping area, but I'll bet it's not that big.
  - rdtsc 3y ago
    They’d get one if they do it regularly. We catch the stupid ones but not all of them are stupid. I imagine most are aware of AirTags and could get the cheapest iPhone to detect them.
  - sgtnoodle 3y ago
    Why wouldn't most car thieves have iPhones?
    - CamperBob2 3y ago
      Because most people who aren't car thieves don't.
      - sgtnoodle 3y ago
        Globally, sure. In the US, it looks like iOS is about 57% market share. I suspect it's even higher in New York City. It's pure speculation, but I wonder if the average car thief is more likely to own an iPhone as a form of status symbol? Or, is the average car thief more likely to be using burner phones from Walmart?
c0llision 3y ago
I don't have an AirTag, but I think if you get the notification you can make the tag play noise to help find it.

DLA 3y ago

1000% self serving.

culi 3y ago

We use a tracker to track our cat who we allow outdoors every day until an hour before sunset. We initially used a Tile and then decided to switch to an AirTag since it had a larger network. After 4 months of the air tag we're looking to switch back. Most of what the tags do is allow us to know when we're within X number of feet of our cat. The Tile had a better range and was lighter. But most importantly, we could have multiple accounts track the same Tile. Somehow Apple's airtags are missing this really critical feature that has come up again and again for us. If one of us is not home we need to be able to have another one of us be able to track her down but we simply cannot To be honest, the biggest reservation for me personally has been the company itself. It seems like an obvious industry where a very in-your-face-look-how-trustworthy-we-are approach to marketing like Mullvad the VPN service does is the right move. Mullvad's "only one price no matter how many years you buy it for" and "we never have a sale" on top of their just straight up "our quality speaks for itself" product seems like the perfect approach for a company where trust is so critical. In contrast, our Tile tried to force us into buying a brand new Tile when the battery died instead of just... letting us get a new battery. We had to cut it open and then buy special glue to glue it back together. I understand not all the models do this but... really? This doesn't seem like the market where you should be trading customer trust for a quick buck. Another thing I've yet to see from Tile/Chipolo/AirTag marketing is specific mention for our use-cases of ~~tracking~~(making easy to find) our outdoor cat. The network effect in this market is killer but this seems like an obvious audience that I'm shocked no one is targetting. People walk their dogs and people who let their cats out often have to check NextDoor or FB when something comes up. The point is that they talk. And the thing about the network effect with bluetooth trackers is that the network effect is localized. Meaning Apple can dominate NYC and Chipolo can dominate SF but if everyone in my suburb of Chicago for whatever reason happens to be using BlahBlah, I'm obviously gonna go with BlahBlah. I want my cat to be findable and the most important thing is what my neighbors are doing. A targeted approach seems obvious yet it's rare to see a product specifically marketed for that

WWLink 3y ago
> But most importantly, we could have multiple accounts track the same Tile. Somehow Apple's airtags are missing this really critical feature that has come up again and again for us. If one of us is not home we need to be able to have another one of us be able to track her down but we simply cannot I really hate Apple's insistence on using 1 account for everything (I mean EVERYTHING). I think it was what finally made me put my foot down on using iCloud and not wanting an apple card savings account. Plus their account management system sucks. It's the only system I've used that randomly forgets I'm logged in and demands me to log in again on my computers, phones, etc.

schwartzworld 3y ago

I bought a bunch of Tiles, and after a year the non-replaceable batteries failed and I got an offer to replace them at 15% off. Talk about garbage. Your product isn't good for anything if it just stops working after a year and needs a full replacement.

c0llision 3y ago
The newer models have replaceable batteries
- seanp2k2 3y ago
  aside from the batteries, my Tile devices just straight up do not activate most of the time when I actually need them. I'll be a few feet away and they won't make any sound // won't connect when I try to ping them. AirTags have been FAR more reliable, and the direction finding is next-level.
  - crhulls 3y ago
    What platform are you on and what models? We in general have stats that show we are the most reliable product from a connectivity standpoint but I know there are still issues. Apologies you are in that bucket.
  - sgtnoodle 3y ago
    I'm a tile user, and indeed they seem a bit unreliable. I got one for my wife to keep in a known location because she misplaces her phone, and it works to signal the phone maybe 4 out of 5 times. I have one on my dog's collar, in a 3D printed enclosure. He got out a few weekends ago and ran all around town, and there weren't any breadcrumbs on the app. It's one of the mid-range models rather than the high-end ones, though. I have the high-end ones in our cars, and there's plenty of activity in the app. While I pay for the premium service, it's too much hassle to deal with the "free" battery replacements. I just buy bulk packs of coin cells on Amazon for $0.10 each.
    - 3y ago

bckygldstn 3y ago

What legal basis do you have for enforcing a $1mil civil penalty on stalkers? I'm not a lawyer, but it seems out of proportion to any damages sustained to Tile and likely unenforceable (not to mention uncollectable)? (FWIW: I think ID verification is a good non-technical deterrent to what is largely a non-techincal problem!)

crhulls 3y ago
It’s a terms of service you opt in to. Unclear how well it holds up in court but I dare anyone to try! We will go all out making an example out of people who abuse the system. So far we have not had a single report of misuse of the anti-theft feature.
- nradov 3y ago
  I am not a stalker, but that agreement is almost certainly unenforceable in civil court. It violates the basic principles of consideration and equity. There is extensive case law on those areas, which you might want to look into before wasting people's time making empty threats and bullshiting about subjects you clearly don't understand.
  - crhulls 3y ago
    We are a public company with an audit and risk committee, multiple in-house lawyers, and external counsel. This was heavily discussed. Perhaps a court would limit the fine, but liquidated damages are a commonly used concept, and I don't think most people will tempt fate. Aggressive stalkers will buy dedicated GPS devices - this is a real roadblock.
    - nradov 3y ago
      I don't believe you. I think you're either lying, or misunderstood what your external counsel told you. If you want us to take your claim seriously then post copies of their opinion letters.

reaperducer 3y ago

stringent penalties for misuse, including a large fine. How exactly does a non-government entity impose a fine?

crhulls 3y ago
It’s a terms of service agreement. We would have to sue
- sgtnoodle 3y ago
  Doesn't that seem like an unrealistic solution? If you actually start suing customers over terms of service, you're going to rapidly alienate your customer base. As a generally reasonable person, I have no interest in submitting anything more official than a valid credit card number to any company for lack of any legal need. It seems like it would be wise to avoid any pretense if you want to start selling covert tracking as a premium feature. Either do it or don't, but don't try to offload the moral implications onto your customers by "policing" them.
- rdtsc 3y ago
  One day some bored and rich person might call you on it. You’d have to sue and win otherwise it will make it harder for others to take the claim seriously.

thedougd 3y ago

The Tile app constantly nags me in ugly ways to give it always on location permissions. How is that data used beyond helping people find their items?

crhulls 3y ago
We need that for background scanning; Apple just cheats and does the same without really asking. We have never sold Tile user data. We did have a data platform for Life360, which we believe did no harm, but we exited the business as it seemed to cause confusion and was a very small part of our revenue
- thedougd 3y ago
  Thank you for your response. Please just let me say no once and for all. An occasional app banner is fine, but the system notifications is a step too far. That pushiness is what gave me the impression the location permission is more valuable to Tile than it is to me.
  - skzv 3y ago
    The system wouldn't work without location permission.
    - thedougd 3y ago
      It works fine to find your own devices by giving it permission 'while using the app'.
      - renewiltord 3y ago
        The primary use case for these things requires other participants in the network. It doesn't look like this is a good product for you, yeah.
        thedougd 3y ago

hot_gril 3y ago

Yeah, the point of AirTags was never anti-theft.

jrockway 3y ago
The point was probably anti-theft but the tragedy of the commons got the best of them.

Fatnino 3y ago

There are third party apps that will see right through your "secret stalking mode". Basically, since apple doesn't give a damn about android users, they just unleashed airtags on the world with no way to be alerted you are being stalked if you only have android. Months later apple did release some half assed android app that doesn't do automatic scanning. So android users need to use something like airguard and that just so happens to also snitch on tiles.

crhulls 3y ago
It is all about deterrence levels. Thieves aren't completely dumb but they also take the path of least resistance. We are going to do things like rotating MACs that will make it harder for generic apps to be useful and further make thieves have to be more intentional.
- Fatnino 3y ago
  Airguard can still see devices with rotating MACs. They just pollute the detection list a bit and draw attention to themselves.
lstamour 3y ago
Actually re non-iPhone detection: I’ve been annoyed by air tags beeping and it’s definitely the case that the new anti-stalking features on AirTags make them rather noisy and easy to find as a result. You have to get very creative with the hiding spot so that thieves know it exists (they can hear it) but they can’t find it, remove it or take out the battery to disable it. I’ve heard stories about people planting more than one AirTag on their bike, such as dropping one in the frame in a hard to reach area, and having opportunists decide to drop the bike off at a used store than deal with the AirTag they can’t find that keeps making noise.
sgtnoodle 3y ago
I'm curious how those third party apps work. Are they tailored to specific vendors' beacons, or do they operate generically on all BLE announcements? I'm curious because I have a medical implant that broadcasts a burst of announcement frames once every minute.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

onion2k 3y ago

At Tile we just launched an Anti-Theft feature where you can turn off stalking notifications if you share your government issued ID and agree to extremely stringent penalties for misuse, including a large fine. Does that mean Tile will be the preferred choice for wealthy stalkers?

cobertos 3y ago

I miss when I could just use the Tile app without the constant nags to upgrade to enter into a subscription. I already paid for my Tile devices at retail and only access them over Bluetooth locally anyway. Please stop trying to squeeze more money out of me.

usernew 3y ago

>put a ton of thought into this problem question: have you put any thought into the fact that you cannot fine Anyone, since you're not the government, and have zero authority to do so? "fine" lol. all you can do, is ban people from using your service and attempt to bully them by blatantly lying.