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> What's wrong with these people? It's Utah. Utah, for all the ways that actually matter, is effectively a theocracy operated by an ultra-conservative religio

> What's wrong with these people? It's Utah. Utah, for all the ways that actually matter, is effectively a theocracy operated by an ultra-conservative religious minority. Utah is about as similar to the rest of the United States as the rest of the United States is similar to the Middle East.

tempsy 4y ago
Ehh it's definitely not just the ultra religious conservatives who are raising issues with pornography. I see a lot more "health bro influencer"/Andrew Tate types warn against watching porn because they think it makes people weak minded, which I would agree with when it turns into an addiction and actually impacts your ability to form real life relationships.
- lesona 4y ago
  You might see a lot of that personally, but the Utah legislature has a dearth of "health bro influencer" types, especially in its Senate. The chief sponsor of the bill went to BYU.[1] The co-sponsor of the bill went to BYU [2] [1] https://senate.utah.gov/sen/WEILET/ https://senate.utah.gov/sen/WEILET/ [2] https://house.utleg.gov/rep/PULSIS/ https://house.utleg.gov/rep/PULSIS/ Edit: spacing
  - tristor 4y ago
    Roughly 1/3rd of the House and Senate of Utah are BYU grads [1], and BYU is not the only religious Mormon university in Utah, just the largest. Utah was literally founded as a state to be a place for Mormons[2], because they were a persecuted religious minority in other states. I grew up in Missouri, and part of Missouri state history is that of the 1838 Mormon War[3]. At one point the Governor of Missouri signed an order that paid out for the scalps of Mormons[4]. The aftermath was a mass migration of Mormons from Missouri to what became Utah, literally founded as a place for Mormons, to this day Mormons consider Independence, Missouri as a holy site, but Utah is the headquarters of the LDS Church and the predominant residence of Mormons in the US. It is for all intents and purposes a theocratic state within the US. [1]: https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/govbeat/wp/2014/07/23/byu-grads-basically-run-utahs-government/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/govbeat/wp/2014/07/23/b... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Utah#Settlement_by_The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Utah#Settlement_by_... [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1838_Mormon_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1838_Mormon_War [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_Extermination_Order https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_Extermination_Order
  - tempsy 4y ago
    I didn’t suggest if it is happening in Utah it isn’t for religious reasons, but I don’t think criticism of porn is strictly a religious issue.
    - santoshalper 4y ago
      [flagged]
      - tempsy 4y ago
        [flagged]
    - dragonwriter 4y ago
      There’s evidence that the perception of “porn addiction” is mostly a religious thing, probably because it is a way of resolving conflict between the values of a religious identity group with which the “addict” identifies for cultural/social reasons and the “addict’s” preference for porn by externalizing/pathologizing the preference.
- George83728 4y ago
  Andrew Tate is a pornographer.
  - tempsy 4y ago
    Very likely he’s a hypocrite but that doesn’t mean pornography can’t have unintended side effects
    - George83728 4y ago
      [flagged]
adrianmonk 4y ago
> an ultra-conservative religious minority AFAICT, within the state, Mormons are not a minority but a majority. Wikipedia says[1] 60.68% as of 2020. --- [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Utah https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Utah
- borski 4y ago
  I think the OP meant that they were a minority nationwide and worldwide. It isn’t surprising at all that they are a majority in UT; that is literally where they breed, heh.
Jach 4y ago
This reads like an over-the-top warning that's really meant to try and keep more people (especially Californians) from moving in.
- tourmalinetaco 4y ago
  It’s accurate, but if it has the side effect of scaring Californians then no one is complaining.
ssnistfajen 4y ago
Hyperbole much? Comparing Utah to the Middle East is a bit disingenuous.
- qzx_pierri 4y ago
  [flagged]
- tristor 4y ago
  Well, both regions are deserts occupied in majority by religious zealots of a single ethnic group that believe in polygamy and their economy is primarily driven by natural resource exports (oil for the Middle East; gold, other metals, and agricultural products for Utah). I don't think the comparison is that far off. Utah is 85% white and 60% Mormon, so... The only reason that Utah isn't whiter and more Mormon is due to all the immigrant workers, just like the Middle East...
  - ssnistfajen 4y ago
    The LDS church has prohibited polygamy for well over a century now: https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/polygamy-latter-day-saints-and-the-practice-of-plural-marriage https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/polygamy-la... LGBT rights in Utah is also middle of the road among U.S. states. The LDS church also supported the recent Respect for Marriage Act unlike many other conservative Christian organizations. Your other points about climate and economy are extremely generic and not really a strong argument for why Utah more similar to the Middle East than the rest of the US. >Utah is 85% white and 60% Mormon, so... Maine is ~95% white and ~60% Christian, so what's your point? >The only reason that Utah isn't whiter and more Mormon is due to all the immigrant workers Replace "Utah" with "United States" and "Mormon" with "Christian", then it remains a true statement for the entirety of your country's existence. The United States is far more culturally homogenous than most Americans like you think it is. Consider travelling outside North America for once before making such egregious comparisons again.
    - tristor 4y ago
      > Consider travelling outside North America for once before making such egregious comparisons again. I've extensively traveled the world, to more than 70 countries, and have spent years of my life living abroad. The United States is far more diverse and heterogeneous than most other countries in the world, contrary to your statements. Some subsets of the US are regionally /very/ homogeneous, however, which is part of my point. It would help to start thinking of the US for what it is, a federation of 50 states, not a single entity with a single mind. There is a high level of diversity within the US, but in each state, there tends to be a balance point towards some particular dominant culture, which can include religion, and in the case of Utah was explicitly created to include religion (Utah was founded to give the Mormons a home). > The LDS church has prohibited polygamy for well over a century now: https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/polygamy-la https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/polygamy-la... Officially. Unofficially, polygamy is still widely practiced in Utah as part of the official doctrine of FDLS, which is the breakaway Fundamental sect of the LDS Church. The FDLS has recently gained more prominence, which lead to Utah making a surprising reversal recently by effectively decriminalizing polygamy, something that was for a long time a felony in Utah in order to follow LDS Church doctrine that banned polygamy as part of the split from FDLS. FDLS exists almost entirely within the state of Utah however, and the words of the Book of Mormon on this topic are literally plainly in black and white. Technically speaking, the Quran heavily restricts polygamy in Al-Nisa', 4:3 and clarified in Al-Nisa', 4:129. In practice however, polygamy is widely practiced in the Middle East and is a core part of the way in which many people practice Islam and has had no significant actions taken against it. It's specifically a core tenet of the Wahabi sect of Islam, which is the dominant sect in the modern Middle East (although other sects generally reject polygamy).
PathOfEclipse 4y ago
> is effectively a theocracy operated by an ultra-conservative religious minority. You should look up what the word theocracy means. Here. I'll do it for you: "a system of government in which priests rule in the name of God or a god." Utah's government is a constitutional Republic. People vote in leaders who make laws and administer the government on their behalf. > Utah is about as similar to the rest of the United States as the rest of the United States is similar to the Middle East. Your unequivocally false, deceitful, and extremely hyperbolic statements aren't helping anyone out.
- newswasboring 4y ago
  I'm always vary of these arguments. Doesn't mean you are wrong, but remember there is a country call Democratic People's Republic of Korea and it has elections every 4-5 years. Last one was in 2019.
- cogitoergofutuo 4y ago
  Have you spent much time in Utah? Off the top of my head I can’t think of an organization that could be considered an even distant second to the LDS church in terms of influence over policies brought to and enacted by the elected officials in that state.
  - LeifCarrotson 4y ago
    It's a constitutional republic that got taken over by a 51% attack that, thanks in part to FPTP elections, they've leveraged into a supermajority.
    - tristor 4y ago
      > It's a constitutional republic that got taken over by a 51% attack It's a state that was literally created to be a place for Mormons because they were a persecuted religious minority ran out of every other state and it was a huge desert wasteland nobody else wanted. It's only due to huge influxes of immigration, especially from the South, that Utah is... checks notes only 85% white and 60% Mormon. So it's like less of a 51% attack and more, business as usual and intended. If anything, the non-Mormons are going to soon be able to do a 51% attack and take Utah back, since Mormons are only 2% of the US population, and Californians are mass migrating to Utah now that people realized you can build in the desert with modern technology.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
JumpCrisscross 4y ago
Salt Lake City has a progressive government, for what it’s worth.

tempsy 4y ago

Ehh it's definitely not just the ultra religious conservatives who are raising issues with pornography. I see a lot more "health bro influencer"/Andrew Tate types warn against watching porn because they think it makes people weak minded, which I would agree with when it turns into an addiction and actually impacts your ability to form real life relationships.

lesona 4y ago
You might see a lot of that personally, but the Utah legislature has a dearth of "health bro influencer" types, especially in its Senate. The chief sponsor of the bill went to BYU.[1] The co-sponsor of the bill went to BYU [2] [1] https://senate.utah.gov/sen/WEILET/ https://senate.utah.gov/sen/WEILET/ [2] https://house.utleg.gov/rep/PULSIS/ https://house.utleg.gov/rep/PULSIS/ Edit: spacing
- tristor 4y ago
  Roughly 1/3rd of the House and Senate of Utah are BYU grads [1], and BYU is not the only religious Mormon university in Utah, just the largest. Utah was literally founded as a state to be a place for Mormons[2], because they were a persecuted religious minority in other states. I grew up in Missouri, and part of Missouri state history is that of the 1838 Mormon War[3]. At one point the Governor of Missouri signed an order that paid out for the scalps of Mormons[4]. The aftermath was a mass migration of Mormons from Missouri to what became Utah, literally founded as a place for Mormons, to this day Mormons consider Independence, Missouri as a holy site, but Utah is the headquarters of the LDS Church and the predominant residence of Mormons in the US. It is for all intents and purposes a theocratic state within the US. [1]: https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/govbeat/wp/2014/07/23/byu-grads-basically-run-utahs-government/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/govbeat/wp/2014/07/23/b... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Utah#Settlement_by_The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Utah#Settlement_by_... [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1838_Mormon_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1838_Mormon_War [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_Extermination_Order https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_Extermination_Order
- tempsy 4y ago
  I didn’t suggest if it is happening in Utah it isn’t for religious reasons, but I don’t think criticism of porn is strictly a religious issue.
  - santoshalper 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - tempsy 4y ago
      [flagged]
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    There’s evidence that the perception of “porn addiction” is mostly a religious thing, probably because it is a way of resolving conflict between the values of a religious identity group with which the “addict” identifies for cultural/social reasons and the “addict’s” preference for porn by externalizing/pathologizing the preference.
George83728 4y ago
Andrew Tate is a pornographer.
- tempsy 4y ago
  Very likely he’s a hypocrite but that doesn’t mean pornography can’t have unintended side effects
  - George83728 4y ago
    [flagged]

adrianmonk 4y ago

> an ultra-conservative religious minority AFAICT, within the state, Mormons are not a minority but a majority. Wikipedia says[1] 60.68% as of 2020. --- [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Utah https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Utah

borski 4y ago
I think the OP meant that they were a minority nationwide and worldwide. It isn’t surprising at all that they are a majority in UT; that is literally where they breed, heh.

Jach 4y ago

This reads like an over-the-top warning that's really meant to try and keep more people (especially Californians) from moving in.

tourmalinetaco 4y ago
It’s accurate, but if it has the side effect of scaring Californians then no one is complaining.

ssnistfajen 4y ago

Hyperbole much? Comparing Utah to the Middle East is a bit disingenuous.

qzx_pierri 4y ago
[flagged]
tristor 4y ago
Well, both regions are deserts occupied in majority by religious zealots of a single ethnic group that believe in polygamy and their economy is primarily driven by natural resource exports (oil for the Middle East; gold, other metals, and agricultural products for Utah). I don't think the comparison is that far off. Utah is 85% white and 60% Mormon, so... The only reason that Utah isn't whiter and more Mormon is due to all the immigrant workers, just like the Middle East...
- ssnistfajen 4y ago
  The LDS church has prohibited polygamy for well over a century now: https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/polygamy-latter-day-saints-and-the-practice-of-plural-marriage https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/polygamy-la... LGBT rights in Utah is also middle of the road among U.S. states. The LDS church also supported the recent Respect for Marriage Act unlike many other conservative Christian organizations. Your other points about climate and economy are extremely generic and not really a strong argument for why Utah more similar to the Middle East than the rest of the US. >Utah is 85% white and 60% Mormon, so... Maine is ~95% white and ~60% Christian, so what's your point? >The only reason that Utah isn't whiter and more Mormon is due to all the immigrant workers Replace "Utah" with "United States" and "Mormon" with "Christian", then it remains a true statement for the entirety of your country's existence. The United States is far more culturally homogenous than most Americans like you think it is. Consider travelling outside North America for once before making such egregious comparisons again.
  - tristor 4y ago
    > Consider travelling outside North America for once before making such egregious comparisons again. I've extensively traveled the world, to more than 70 countries, and have spent years of my life living abroad. The United States is far more diverse and heterogeneous than most other countries in the world, contrary to your statements. Some subsets of the US are regionally /very/ homogeneous, however, which is part of my point. It would help to start thinking of the US for what it is, a federation of 50 states, not a single entity with a single mind. There is a high level of diversity within the US, but in each state, there tends to be a balance point towards some particular dominant culture, which can include religion, and in the case of Utah was explicitly created to include religion (Utah was founded to give the Mormons a home). > The LDS church has prohibited polygamy for well over a century now: https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/polygamy-la https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/polygamy-la... Officially. Unofficially, polygamy is still widely practiced in Utah as part of the official doctrine of FDLS, which is the breakaway Fundamental sect of the LDS Church. The FDLS has recently gained more prominence, which lead to Utah making a surprising reversal recently by effectively decriminalizing polygamy, something that was for a long time a felony in Utah in order to follow LDS Church doctrine that banned polygamy as part of the split from FDLS. FDLS exists almost entirely within the state of Utah however, and the words of the Book of Mormon on this topic are literally plainly in black and white. Technically speaking, the Quran heavily restricts polygamy in Al-Nisa', 4:3 and clarified in Al-Nisa', 4:129. In practice however, polygamy is widely practiced in the Middle East and is a core part of the way in which many people practice Islam and has had no significant actions taken against it. It's specifically a core tenet of the Wahabi sect of Islam, which is the dominant sect in the modern Middle East (although other sects generally reject polygamy).

PathOfEclipse 4y ago

> is effectively a theocracy operated by an ultra-conservative religious minority. You should look up what the word theocracy means. Here. I'll do it for you: "a system of government in which priests rule in the name of God or a god." Utah's government is a constitutional Republic. People vote in leaders who make laws and administer the government on their behalf. > Utah is about as similar to the rest of the United States as the rest of the United States is similar to the Middle East. Your unequivocally false, deceitful, and extremely hyperbolic statements aren't helping anyone out.

newswasboring 4y ago
I'm always vary of these arguments. Doesn't mean you are wrong, but remember there is a country call Democratic People's Republic of Korea and it has elections every 4-5 years. Last one was in 2019.
cogitoergofutuo 4y ago
Have you spent much time in Utah? Off the top of my head I can’t think of an organization that could be considered an even distant second to the LDS church in terms of influence over policies brought to and enacted by the elected officials in that state.
- LeifCarrotson 4y ago
  It's a constitutional republic that got taken over by a 51% attack that, thanks in part to FPTP elections, they've leveraged into a supermajority.
  - tristor 4y ago
    > It's a constitutional republic that got taken over by a 51% attack It's a state that was literally created to be a place for Mormons because they were a persecuted religious minority ran out of every other state and it was a huge desert wasteland nobody else wanted. It's only due to huge influxes of immigration, especially from the South, that Utah is... checks notes only 85% white and 60% Mormon. So it's like less of a 51% attack and more, business as usual and intended. If anything, the non-Mormons are going to soon be able to do a 51% attack and take Utah back, since Mormons are only 2% of the US population, and Californians are mass migrating to Utah now that people realized you can build in the desert with modern technology.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

JumpCrisscross 4y ago

Salt Lake City has a progressive government, for what it’s worth.