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It's addictive for one. There are increasing number of support groups for men who are struggling with pornography use and for their spouses in dealing with havi

It's addictive for one. There are increasing number of support groups for men who are struggling with pornography use and for their spouses in dealing with having a dependant partner. It creates a space for people to explore and normalise their distressing sexual interests without questioning the root causes. Producers will often intentionally seek out vulnerable young women and groom them with promises of fame and riches, only for them to become reliant on painkillers and other drugs to cope with the reality of it. It creates a market for the abuse of trafficking victims. Most sites don't require verification of consent and most users don't care. It teaches men to objectify their partners and to see them as something to be shared. There is a huge market now for non consensual revenge pornography. Reddit has seen multiple subreddiys dedicated to non-consensual intimate media. It provides a safe space for people to express racist, misogynistic and otherwise antisocial viewpoints. PornHub in its front page today has videos of stimulated assaults and incest. For young viewers it gives them the idea that it's normal to be sexually interested in these things. I'm not religious. I'm sex positive and believe in being open with children about the realities of life. Pornography stole years of my life, warped my views of relationships and prevented me from reflecting seriously on my own traumas.

hvis 4y ago
Sugar is addictive. And it might have more effect on your lifespan than the consumption of pornography. Quality of life, too.
- AlecSchueler 4y ago
  Yes it is, and that's why we teach our children about nutritional health and, in some places, regulate things like school dinners and products aimed at children. What point are you making in relation to the topic at hand?
  - loeg 4y ago
    I can't read GP's mind, but sugar doesn't require ID verification to buy in the state of Utah, for example.
    - AlecSchueler 4y ago
      No, but driving a car or possessing a gun does. Different solutions for different issues is hardly a contentious proposal.
      - loeg 4y ago
        Earlier you were concerned about the possible risk of addiction. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35788237 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35788237 Are cars or guns regulated because of addiction? No. So GP compared porn to sugar, which is considered addictive and has probably more concrete evidence of self-harm than porn. I think the comparison is apt? Certainly fairer than comparing porn to driving a car or gun possession, which is sort of absurd.
        AlecSchueler 4y ago
        Addictiveness was one of the multiple points I made about pornography. The other aspects apply to pornography and not to sugar. So it was apples and oranges to begin with. But in terms of addiction potential alone Utah already has precedent in legislating for that. Example: Utah doesn't allow minors to purchase alcohol because of its addictive nature.
        hvis 4y ago
        Most of your other points related to how pornography is produced, not to its consumption. Thus it wouldn't matter who is watching it, and thus ID check seems irrelevant. Some of the aspects of the porn market are not great, but they should be investigated by the relevant authorities. Hiding them from only certain people won't make them go away.
    - bumby 4y ago
      They might if sugar was able to be consumed for free with virtually unlimited access. I'm not sure it's a very good analogy.
      - 4y ago
  - pnt12 4y ago
    And does Utah have a strong sex education curriculum, to teach children about it? I assume no - it's just a ban on sinful behavior.
    - AlecSchueler 4y ago
      Let's hope they are also exploring the avenues indeed.
- GalahiSimtam 4y ago
  Why do I see this fallacy all over anti-porn threads? Keto diets might be a fad and about as difficult as quitting porn, but still.
- bart_spoon 4y ago
  Sounds more like an argument for regulation targeting externalities surrounding sugar and artificial sweeteners than against regulation targeting pornography.
laserlight 4y ago
> It's addictive for one. Citation needed. Porn addiction doesn't exist [0]. [0] https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/basics/porn-addiction https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/basics/porn-addiction
- AlecSchueler 4y ago
  It would fall under Compulsive Sexual Behaviour Disorder[0] in ICD-10. [1] Pornography Addiction as a unique pathology is still not recognised but the issue is still young. We can see that it's an issue in that more than half of US divorce cases mention compulsive pornography usage. [2] You can read more about Pornography Addiction and what I mean by that over at Wikipedia. [3] You can see support groups for self-identifying addicts in places like Reddit. [4][5] Furthermore, mutual support groups for partners of addicts. [6] 0: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsive_sexual_behaviour_disorder https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsive_sexual_behaviour_... 1: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICD-10 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICD-10 2: https://s3.amazonaws.com/thf_media/2010/pdf/ManningTST.pdf https://s3.amazonaws.com/thf_media/2010/pdf/ManningTST.pdf 3: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornography_addiction https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornography_addiction 4: https://old.reddit.com/r/PornAddiction/ https://old.reddit.com/r/PornAddiction/ 5: https://old.reddit.com/r/pornfree/ https://old.reddit.com/r/pornfree/ 6: https://old.reddit.com/r/loveafterporn/ https://old.reddit.com/r/loveafterporn/
  - laserlight 4y ago
    Compulsive Sexual Behaviour Disorder is not an addiction. The Wikipedia article that you cited begins with the following sentence: “Pornography addiction is the popular but unscientific[5] application of an addiction model to the use of pornography.” [5] Science Stopped Believing in Porn Addiction. You Should, Too. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/women-who-stray/201808/science-stopped-believing-in-porn-addiction-you-should-too https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/women-who-stray/2018...
    - AlecSchueler 4y ago
      I'd love to stop believing in it but it's destroyed a large part of my life. The issue with defining it as an addiction is more of a question of separating from other compulsive issues than not recognising the compulsive issues of the thing itself. Yes, I understand there's a difference between compulsion and addiction but I'd expect the users of Hacker News to understand enough about how the dopamine system works to see the relationship between the two.
mdorazio 4y ago
Do you have sources for any of these points, or are they all personal opinion?
- AlecSchueler 4y ago
  I chose these points specifically because I felt I could back them up with sources if pressed. I began with personal opinion and then removed everything I felt wouldn't stand to scrutiny, even if I do still believe it. I chose not to include sources immediately because that would have required a great deal of upfront effort on my behalf, which I wasn't willing to spend since this is also a place where I come to find relaxation as well as intellectual stimulation. If there are any particular points you're interested in discussing I'll be glad to share the basis for my belief and go into discussion. If it's all of them then that still goes but it may be a week before I get back to you.

hvis 4y ago

Sugar is addictive. And it might have more effect on your lifespan than the consumption of pornography. Quality of life, too.

AlecSchueler 4y ago
Yes it is, and that's why we teach our children about nutritional health and, in some places, regulate things like school dinners and products aimed at children. What point are you making in relation to the topic at hand?
- loeg 4y ago
  I can't read GP's mind, but sugar doesn't require ID verification to buy in the state of Utah, for example.
  - AlecSchueler 4y ago
    No, but driving a car or possessing a gun does. Different solutions for different issues is hardly a contentious proposal.
    - loeg 4y ago
      Earlier you were concerned about the possible risk of addiction. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35788237 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35788237 Are cars or guns regulated because of addiction? No. So GP compared porn to sugar, which is considered addictive and has probably more concrete evidence of self-harm than porn. I think the comparison is apt? Certainly fairer than comparing porn to driving a car or gun possession, which is sort of absurd.
      - AlecSchueler 4y ago
        Addictiveness was one of the multiple points I made about pornography. The other aspects apply to pornography and not to sugar. So it was apples and oranges to begin with. But in terms of addiction potential alone Utah already has precedent in legislating for that. Example: Utah doesn't allow minors to purchase alcohol because of its addictive nature.
        hvis 4y ago
        Most of your other points related to how pornography is produced, not to its consumption. Thus it wouldn't matter who is watching it, and thus ID check seems irrelevant. Some of the aspects of the porn market are not great, but they should be investigated by the relevant authorities. Hiding them from only certain people won't make them go away.
  - bumby 4y ago
    They might if sugar was able to be consumed for free with virtually unlimited access. I'm not sure it's a very good analogy.
    - 4y ago
- pnt12 4y ago
  And does Utah have a strong sex education curriculum, to teach children about it? I assume no - it's just a ban on sinful behavior.
  - AlecSchueler 4y ago
    Let's hope they are also exploring the avenues indeed.
GalahiSimtam 4y ago
Why do I see this fallacy all over anti-porn threads? Keto diets might be a fad and about as difficult as quitting porn, but still.
bart_spoon 4y ago
Sounds more like an argument for regulation targeting externalities surrounding sugar and artificial sweeteners than against regulation targeting pornography.

laserlight 4y ago

> It's addictive for one. Citation needed. Porn addiction doesn't exist [0]. [0] https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/basics/porn-addiction https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/basics/porn-addiction

AlecSchueler 4y ago
It would fall under Compulsive Sexual Behaviour Disorder[0] in ICD-10. [1] Pornography Addiction as a unique pathology is still not recognised but the issue is still young. We can see that it's an issue in that more than half of US divorce cases mention compulsive pornography usage. [2] You can read more about Pornography Addiction and what I mean by that over at Wikipedia. [3] You can see support groups for self-identifying addicts in places like Reddit. [4][5] Furthermore, mutual support groups for partners of addicts. [6] 0: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsive_sexual_behaviour_disorder https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsive_sexual_behaviour_... 1: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICD-10 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICD-10 2: https://s3.amazonaws.com/thf_media/2010/pdf/ManningTST.pdf https://s3.amazonaws.com/thf_media/2010/pdf/ManningTST.pdf 3: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornography_addiction https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornography_addiction 4: https://old.reddit.com/r/PornAddiction/ https://old.reddit.com/r/PornAddiction/ 5: https://old.reddit.com/r/pornfree/ https://old.reddit.com/r/pornfree/ 6: https://old.reddit.com/r/loveafterporn/ https://old.reddit.com/r/loveafterporn/
- laserlight 4y ago
  Compulsive Sexual Behaviour Disorder is not an addiction. The Wikipedia article that you cited begins with the following sentence: “Pornography addiction is the popular but unscientific[5] application of an addiction model to the use of pornography.” [5] Science Stopped Believing in Porn Addiction. You Should, Too. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/women-who-stray/201808/science-stopped-believing-in-porn-addiction-you-should-too https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/women-who-stray/2018...
  - AlecSchueler 4y ago
    I'd love to stop believing in it but it's destroyed a large part of my life. The issue with defining it as an addiction is more of a question of separating from other compulsive issues than not recognising the compulsive issues of the thing itself. Yes, I understand there's a difference between compulsion and addiction but I'd expect the users of Hacker News to understand enough about how the dopamine system works to see the relationship between the two.

mdorazio 4y ago

Do you have sources for any of these points, or are they all personal opinion?

AlecSchueler 4y ago
I chose these points specifically because I felt I could back them up with sources if pressed. I began with personal opinion and then removed everything I felt wouldn't stand to scrutiny, even if I do still believe it. I chose not to include sources immediately because that would have required a great deal of upfront effort on my behalf, which I wasn't willing to spend since this is also a place where I come to find relaxation as well as intellectual stimulation. If there are any particular points you're interested in discussing I'll be glad to share the basis for my belief and go into discussion. If it's all of them then that still goes but it may be a week before I get back to you.