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> I think it's kind of wild that you can just take a latent or otherwise inaccessible source of power and now convert it into waste heat Fixed that for you. Bi

> I think it's kind of wild that you can just take a latent or otherwise inaccessible source of power and now convert it into waste heat Fixed that for you. Bitcoin mining does about as much good for society as hooking up thousands of 1500W electric resistive element space heaters and dumping the thermal output into the atmosphere. Might as well install some mini split air conditioners backwards while we're at it.

biggoodwolf 4y ago
Could say that about social media or video games.
- kibwen 4y ago
  Unlike video games, maximizing energy waste is the goal of proof-of-work. The more energy wasted, the more money you make. It's an engine of conspicuous consumption, which makes it more dangerous than any leisurely pastime where energy is merely an input.
  - biggoodwolf 4y ago
    You just said it, it is money. It's not wasted any more than it is wasted when you play a game or watch a youtube video or TV. It's just a use of energy which you are trying to make as somehow bad. It's just a cultural preference.
    - SamBam 4y ago
      No, because if someone invents a way to power YouTube free of energy, that would be awesome, and it wouldn't detract in any way from the value of YouTube. But if someone worked out a way to generate BitCoin for free without any energy input, that would destroy BitCoin, because it depends on proof of work, where work is defined as consuming energy.
      - biggoodwolf 4y ago
        So that makes it intrinsically bad? What is acceptable vs unacceptable uses of energy? Esp. when we're not talking about food production or medicine
    - eru 4y ago
      Well, it's wasted in the sense that bitcoin could switch to proof-of-stake and use much less energy.
  - can16358p 4y ago
    I believe proof of work is terrible environmentally speaking. But what it brings (decentralization) is well worth all the negative sides anyway.
    - kibwen 4y ago
      Bitcoin is extremely centralized. Every transaction is recorded in a centralized ledger. That ledger may be distributed, but that's not the same thing as being decentralized.
      - can16358p 4y ago
        There's nothing preventing anyone from mining blocks, either individually or in a pool, and broadcasting newly found blocks to the network to be permanently and uncensorably added to the ledger.
  - eaurouge 4y ago
    > maximizing energy waste is the goal of proof-of-work No, it's not. You can't mine inefficiently and remain profitable. There's a market after all. This is such a ridiculous comment. I have to wonder why we have such gleeful wilful ignorance whenever the topic of Bitcoin or crypto comes up.
    - kibwen 4y ago
      Speak only of your own willful ignorance. Nobody said anything about inefficiency; ASICs are extremely efficient at wasting energy. The point that Bitcoin proponents refuse to admit is that, unlike other systems, making the components more efficient does not reduce the energy consumption of the system, because energy consumption is the purpose of this system. Even worse, it puts a floor on the price of energy, which disincentives everyone else from seeking more efficient solutions to power production, because all that efficiency will be wasted by proof-of-work anyway. We as a species will never have free energy, and this is the reason.
- justeleblanc 4y ago
  While the sibling comment has answered on why this is nothing like social media or video games, I do wish that the energy cost of these activities was taken into account more often. Video games in particular have become massively wasteful. Just downloading these 100GB behemoths expends useless energy. And everyone is pushing for 8K 172FPS games. Why? Just why? And yes, before you answer, that applies to any hobby you can think of. You won't be astute by pointing out that e.g., car enthusiasts are similarly wasteful.
  - Zpalmtree 4y ago
    Because its fun?
    - justeleblanc 4y ago
      How is a game running at 144 FPS more "fun" than one running at 60 FPS?
Dylan16807 4y ago
When energy is stored in the height of water, if you don't turn it into electricity and let the water flow freely then it will turn itself into waste heat.
- walrus01 4y ago
  This is written like the construction of a hydroelectric dam on an intermediate point at any elevation change in a river is an inevitable law of nature... ?
  - Dylan16807 4y ago
    It's a choice whether to build a dam or not, but that choice will not change the amount of heat generated. You could put that power to better use, but if you don't have something lined up then the waste of idle turbines bypassed by water is just as bad as the waste of mining bitcoins.
    - danielheath 4y ago
      Hydro dams typically store water uphill for later. If you use it now, it's not there to use later. In the case of a 'stranded' dam, there isn't likely to be a reason to generate power either now or later, so you might as well run BTC generation. I suspect this has been the motivation to build an awful lot of 'stranded' hydro dams, though...
      - Dylan16807 4y ago
        You can store water in the short term. The long term view is simpler. The storage will eventually fill up if you're not using all the power, and at that point you either find a use or you dump the excess water and cause just as much waste heat.
- cma 4y ago
  And the water miraculously makes that heat without chewing up fab capacity that could be used on cancer research or whatever.
Zetice 4y ago
Hm idk if that accurately describes what’s happening here, because people are buying that “waste heat”. Agree or disagree about BTC, a market exists.
HashBasher 4y ago
Check your financial privilege buddy. You may think that because you get paid in the world reserve currency with low inflation. Others are not as lucky, and this won't always be the case. Heard about de-dolloraziation?
- eru 4y ago
  Whatever you get paid in, you can convert the money into whatever currency you feel like afterwards. (Unless your country has weird capital or exchange rate controls, of course.) Perhaps you meant something else?
- walrus01 4y ago
  I'm honestly not sure if this is rhetoric that's coming from the point of view of like a die-hard cryptocurrency true believer free market US libertarian, or somebody that's fully on board with the Russian and Venezuelan governments' stated anti-dollar perspective on global economics.
  - HashBasher 4y ago
    The whole globe should be Anti-dollar (and anti-government money from any country)! What gives the US the right to the global reserve currency and the power to export inflation?
- Moneyyyyy 4y ago
  And Bitcoin is so stable and international accepted and not able to be attacked by a 50% attack that it's better to use in a crisis than gold and food? Have you seen someone trading worthless money into BTC in a crisis? No you have not. Either you keep Bitcoin and start really using it globally or this argument is wrong. And you can see in El Salvador how bad it is.
  - HashBasher 4y ago
    Stability is an illusion. Everything is fluctuating in value every day. Some would argue that given bitcoin's fixed supply, it could be an asset against which everything else value can be measured accurately. An economical measuring stick, if you will. > International accepted Yes, except China! > 50% attack Buddy are you still in 2013? > Crisis Yes, there are some accounts of people fleeing the Ukraine war with their savings in a USB stick, Bitcoin sure is great in a time of crisis where criminals would be on the look out for shiny metal! > start really using bitcoin.. What are you talking about? I'm using Bitcoin right now! I use it every day especially when I am soundly asleep knowing that my Bitcoin is safe and my purchasing power will grow in the long term. > El Salvador El Hodlador knows what long term means.
can16358p 4y ago
An accessible store of value/trade that isn't controlled by a powerful state like US whose interests aren't really the best for humanity. If that's not good for society, I don't know what is.
- Moneyyyyy 4y ago
  Oh how about saving CO2? Because climate change will be even more expensive. Or creating or just using your own currency? There are a lot more good options than shitcoins
  - can16358p 4y ago
    Climate change will be expensive regardless of "shitcoins". Those "shitcoins" at least pave a way to take power from large entities whose best interest isn't saving world's climate, doing more good than harm indirectly.

biggoodwolf 4y ago

Could say that about social media or video games.

kibwen 4y ago
Unlike video games, maximizing energy waste is the goal of proof-of-work. The more energy wasted, the more money you make. It's an engine of conspicuous consumption, which makes it more dangerous than any leisurely pastime where energy is merely an input.
- biggoodwolf 4y ago
  You just said it, it is money. It's not wasted any more than it is wasted when you play a game or watch a youtube video or TV. It's just a use of energy which you are trying to make as somehow bad. It's just a cultural preference.
  - SamBam 4y ago
    No, because if someone invents a way to power YouTube free of energy, that would be awesome, and it wouldn't detract in any way from the value of YouTube. But if someone worked out a way to generate BitCoin for free without any energy input, that would destroy BitCoin, because it depends on proof of work, where work is defined as consuming energy.
    - biggoodwolf 4y ago
      So that makes it intrinsically bad? What is acceptable vs unacceptable uses of energy? Esp. when we're not talking about food production or medicine
  - eru 4y ago
    Well, it's wasted in the sense that bitcoin could switch to proof-of-stake and use much less energy.
- can16358p 4y ago
  I believe proof of work is terrible environmentally speaking. But what it brings (decentralization) is well worth all the negative sides anyway.
  - kibwen 4y ago
    Bitcoin is extremely centralized. Every transaction is recorded in a centralized ledger. That ledger may be distributed, but that's not the same thing as being decentralized.
    - can16358p 4y ago
      There's nothing preventing anyone from mining blocks, either individually or in a pool, and broadcasting newly found blocks to the network to be permanently and uncensorably added to the ledger.
- eaurouge 4y ago
  > maximizing energy waste is the goal of proof-of-work No, it's not. You can't mine inefficiently and remain profitable. There's a market after all. This is such a ridiculous comment. I have to wonder why we have such gleeful wilful ignorance whenever the topic of Bitcoin or crypto comes up.
  - kibwen 4y ago
    Speak only of your own willful ignorance. Nobody said anything about inefficiency; ASICs are extremely efficient at wasting energy. The point that Bitcoin proponents refuse to admit is that, unlike other systems, making the components more efficient does not reduce the energy consumption of the system, because energy consumption is the purpose of this system. Even worse, it puts a floor on the price of energy, which disincentives everyone else from seeking more efficient solutions to power production, because all that efficiency will be wasted by proof-of-work anyway. We as a species will never have free energy, and this is the reason.
justeleblanc 4y ago
While the sibling comment has answered on why this is nothing like social media or video games, I do wish that the energy cost of these activities was taken into account more often. Video games in particular have become massively wasteful. Just downloading these 100GB behemoths expends useless energy. And everyone is pushing for 8K 172FPS games. Why? Just why? And yes, before you answer, that applies to any hobby you can think of. You won't be astute by pointing out that e.g., car enthusiasts are similarly wasteful.
- Zpalmtree 4y ago
  Because its fun?
  - justeleblanc 4y ago
    How is a game running at 144 FPS more "fun" than one running at 60 FPS?

Dylan16807 4y ago

When energy is stored in the height of water, if you don't turn it into electricity and let the water flow freely then it will turn itself into waste heat.

walrus01 4y ago
This is written like the construction of a hydroelectric dam on an intermediate point at any elevation change in a river is an inevitable law of nature... ?
- Dylan16807 4y ago
  It's a choice whether to build a dam or not, but that choice will not change the amount of heat generated. You could put that power to better use, but if you don't have something lined up then the waste of idle turbines bypassed by water is just as bad as the waste of mining bitcoins.
  - danielheath 4y ago
    Hydro dams typically store water uphill for later. If you use it now, it's not there to use later. In the case of a 'stranded' dam, there isn't likely to be a reason to generate power either now or later, so you might as well run BTC generation. I suspect this has been the motivation to build an awful lot of 'stranded' hydro dams, though...
    - Dylan16807 4y ago
      You can store water in the short term. The long term view is simpler. The storage will eventually fill up if you're not using all the power, and at that point you either find a use or you dump the excess water and cause just as much waste heat.
cma 4y ago
And the water miraculously makes that heat without chewing up fab capacity that could be used on cancer research or whatever.

Zetice 4y ago

Hm idk if that accurately describes what’s happening here, because people are buying that “waste heat”. Agree or disagree about BTC, a market exists.

HashBasher 4y ago

Check your financial privilege buddy. You may think that because you get paid in the world reserve currency with low inflation. Others are not as lucky, and this won't always be the case. Heard about de-dolloraziation?

eru 4y ago
Whatever you get paid in, you can convert the money into whatever currency you feel like afterwards. (Unless your country has weird capital or exchange rate controls, of course.) Perhaps you meant something else?
walrus01 4y ago
I'm honestly not sure if this is rhetoric that's coming from the point of view of like a die-hard cryptocurrency true believer free market US libertarian, or somebody that's fully on board with the Russian and Venezuelan governments' stated anti-dollar perspective on global economics.
- HashBasher 4y ago
  The whole globe should be Anti-dollar (and anti-government money from any country)! What gives the US the right to the global reserve currency and the power to export inflation?
Moneyyyyy 4y ago
And Bitcoin is so stable and international accepted and not able to be attacked by a 50% attack that it's better to use in a crisis than gold and food? Have you seen someone trading worthless money into BTC in a crisis? No you have not. Either you keep Bitcoin and start really using it globally or this argument is wrong. And you can see in El Salvador how bad it is.
- HashBasher 4y ago
  Stability is an illusion. Everything is fluctuating in value every day. Some would argue that given bitcoin's fixed supply, it could be an asset against which everything else value can be measured accurately. An economical measuring stick, if you will. > International accepted Yes, except China! > 50% attack Buddy are you still in 2013? > Crisis Yes, there are some accounts of people fleeing the Ukraine war with their savings in a USB stick, Bitcoin sure is great in a time of crisis where criminals would be on the look out for shiny metal! > start really using bitcoin.. What are you talking about? I'm using Bitcoin right now! I use it every day especially when I am soundly asleep knowing that my Bitcoin is safe and my purchasing power will grow in the long term. > El Salvador El Hodlador knows what long term means.

can16358p 4y ago

An accessible store of value/trade that isn't controlled by a powerful state like US whose interests aren't really the best for humanity. If that's not good for society, I don't know what is.

Moneyyyyy 4y ago
Oh how about saving CO2? Because climate change will be even more expensive. Or creating or just using your own currency? There are a lot more good options than shitcoins
- can16358p 4y ago
  Climate change will be expensive regardless of "shitcoins". Those "shitcoins" at least pave a way to take power from large entities whose best interest isn't saving world's climate, doing more good than harm indirectly.