7 ms·

San Francisco Whole Foods made 560 emergency calls before closing

61 points by xqcgrek2 3y ago

PKop 3y ago
We shouldn't have to live like this. We need a Lee Kuan Yew or Bukele type of leader to step up in these cities and say enough. This passive acceptance of crime and disorder under some misguided sense of compassion or that putting criminals in jail is immoral is pathetic and will lead to ruin. This is not how civilization functions.
- Beaver117 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - PKop 3y ago
    Because normal funcitoning people want to conduct commerce and experience a crime free life visiting these corporations, or any other place, within the cities that they live. We should put criminals in jail and mercilessly shame and make fun of people like you that construct some nonsense rationalization for all of us accepting allowing our homes, our towns our streets to turn into shitholes. You are a LOSER and the rest of us are getting real sick of putting up with your type. I was going to mention in my original post, but I'll add here.. that the misguided moralisms are only part of the problem. There is a not insiginificant portion of the voting (or non voting) population, and political activists, that support and enable this nonsense not out of a misguided sense of compassion but similar to parent comment here, because they have a bitterness and ressentiment towards this or that other part of society and want to see orderly civilization destroyed. In some ways this may even be a subconcious motivation, but it is there. There's been way too much explicit crime and degredation for many to just be fooled by good intentions for this to continue unabated..no, it's something else as well. Many are thrilled with these trends. So.. >You think people are shoplifting from Whole Foods for fun? Yes, absolutely this is a part of it. They do it because they want to and they can. Some may want to stick it to the man like you want them to do. But it doesn't matter, because some sob-story claim of being poor "therefore crime" is untenable even if true and should be rejected out of hand. It's bullshit. Nice places are expensive. The whole world cannot nor should they assume some right to live anywhere just because. Politicial dysfunction does play a part of economic pain, but some people will not be able to make it in expensive places. They do not have a claim to tear down these places just because they can't afford to live there. They deserve jail for that. I want to have nice clean orderly crime-free streets. And this is entirely achievable and has been achieved in many times and places throughout history, in the US as well. The moral position is to take anyone trying to destroy this or inflict crime on people and businesses and put them in prison.
    - sobkas 3y ago
      Rich and powerful no longer fear prosecution and jail. You can destroy economy, do wage theft in billions, war criminals go free without even a tap on the wrist. People see this and such disregard for law trickle down on them. Including law enforcement. And some said that trickle down economy doesn't work. There are only two rules, don't steal from the rich and obey my authority. From this perspective poor stealing from each other is not a problem, as no real law was broken(see above). And in the end poor will eat each other not the rich.
    - dang 3y ago
      The personal attack in this post is totally unacceptable and clearly a bannable offense on HN. Moreover, this has been a problem for years (see links below). Also, it looks like you've been using HN primarily for ideological battle and that's also a line at which we ban accounts (regardless of the ideology they're battling for). Past explanation about that: https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=false&page=0&query=primarily%20test%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme.... I'm not going to ban you right now, but it's a close call; if you keep abusing HN in these ways, we're going to have to. If you'd therefore please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32146474 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32146474 (July 2022) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15621215 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15621215 (Nov 2017) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14116279 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14116279 (April 2017) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13283040 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13283040 (Dec 2016) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12537061 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12537061 (Sept 2016)
      - PKop 3y ago
        Ok, I'm sorry dang, you're right. Thanks for the warning. We need your type of work ethic and desire to maintain a healthy community, along with discipline to be a stickler for enforcement of law and order in public office in some of these cities... they'd be maintained well like Hacker News is maintained well... And yea, if only we all could just keep our heads down and just code & do software, not worry about politics crime and social issues and be left alone & unaffected by their consequences.. Those were the days not long ago huh dang. I miss them too. I'll heed your warning and back off the politics posting going forward
  - andromeduck 3y ago
    Coat of living, dominated by housing costs, is being driven you by owner occupiers and mom & pop time landlords like the self avowed socialist on the board of supervisors more than any other factor.
  - dang 3y ago
    Please don't take HN threads further into hellish flamewar. Flamewar is not curious conversation and we want curious conversation here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Edit: you've been breaking the site guidelines with unsubstantive comments and flamebait in other threads too. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35579954 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35579954 was particularly awful. We ban accounts that do this repeatedly, so if you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and use HN as intended, we'd appreciate it.
- rektide 3y ago
  I don't know California, but this reads like a classic & simple cry to suppress people, to take hard lives & make them worse. You talk about a misguided sense of compassion. But what have we really tried except liberalism? Except allowing whatever happens to happen to people? What have we tried to help, to build possible lives? Even for those not living in homed, what have we tried to keep them from sliding off the edge? It's May Day. This cry for dispassion & accusation & intolerance, for jailing each other, should not be the go to plan for when situations get bad. Maybe doing nothing hasn't worked, but rather than resort to striking out against those we are afraid of, we should be trying to make possible paths forwards.
  - PKop 3y ago
    [flagged]
  - Hatrix 3y ago
    May Day does not really mean anything in the US. You can offer people help but, you can't force them to accept it. They have the resources to get all the drugs they want, iPhones and better camping equipment than I have. A lot of the crime in the area seems to be driven by organized crime groups. Helping homeless people won't stop that.
  - TMWNN 3y ago
    You talk about a misguided sense of compassion. But what have we really tried except liberalism? The city of San Francisco spends $70,000 annually per homeless person! <https://abc7news.com/sf-homeless-plan-housing-all-san-francisco-supervisor-rafael-mandelman/12760671/ https://abc7news.com/sf-homeless-plan-housing-all-san-franci...> The homeless there are homeless because severe mental and addiction issues cause them to reject help, not because resources aren't available.
diebeforei485 3y ago
Voters clearly said enough is enough during the past few elections. The Board of Supervisors will continue to pretend everything is okay until they are voted out. Connie Chan, Dean Preston, and Aaron Peskin should go.
- readonthegoapp 3y ago
  voters have apparently said enough crime prevention.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- peanuty1 3y ago
  SF voters have repeatedly voted for soft-on-crime candidates like Chesa Boudin (yes, he's been recalled but it's insane they voted him in to begin with).
infamouscow 3y ago
I hope the voters of San Francisco are open minded enough to accept their policies need to be revised.
helaoban 3y ago
That block (corner of 8th and Market) is particularly nasty. What I find even more perplexing than the city doing nothing is how the large tech companies and their brood that work right next door tolerate it. For those that work in those offices, do you just get bused in everyday, eat all your meals at the cafeteria, and get bused back out, observing the outside world like a snow globe? How do you reconcile the money you make with the destitution at your literal doorstep.
- dkokelley 3y ago
  Is there something that the bused in/out employees could do to make a difference?
  - helaoban 3y ago
    Your question could be generalized to “Do members of a community have a responsibility towards that community.” The answer is obviously yes. Responsibility assumes that conditions can be changed by those responsible, otherwise the concept of responsibility is void. I can direct this reflection at myself in various domains and come to the conclusion that I am falling short of my responsibilities in many ways, but it’s also true that people who walk by the worst of SF’s blocks everyday to pick up there 200k+ salaries are telling themselves everyday “not my problem”.
    - ars 3y ago
      If you actually cared you would work to criminalize all drug use, prosecute even minor offenses, and give food to mentally ill people daily. None of that is beyond reach but the voters of SF don't want those things.
      - yellowapple 3y ago
        Adding yet more criminalization and prosecution is ineffective, as can be seen across the rest of the US; looking at per-capita numbers instead of absolutes, the diversity of interstate drug laws seems to be well-represented in the rankings: http://www.citymayors.com/society/usa-cities-homelessness.html http://www.citymayors.com/society/usa-cities-homelessness.ht... The largely-untried approach is to assess why people are being afflicted with mental health issues and why people are turning to drugs, and to actually address those underlying factors. Drug abuse and mental illness are symptoms of a larger problem, not the cause. That larger problem is likely the one producing other symptoms, like the majority of adults under 30 living with their parents, or 11% of all Americans being at risk of eviction.
onos 3y ago
I don’t believe the problem can be solved, at least in full, but instead we have to pick our poison. We must either choose the current dystopian solution, or instead criminalize / institutionalize these people against their will. One hurts the full population. Is the liberal solution honestly any better for the addicts?
- yellowapple 3y ago
  It absolutely can be solved. The problem is that SF's landowners have its politics by the balls, which means that policies which could solve homelessness and broader poverty/destitution overnight - like land value taxation with a citizens' dividend - have zero hope of seeing the light of day. SF ain't the only one, either; this is a statewide, regionwide, and nationwide issue. Only reason it's more pronounced on the West Coast is because of the more temperate weather; rough sleepers end up surviving for another year instead of freezing to death in winter.
  - corbulo 3y ago
    In what world are landowners not hurt the most by SF turning into cyberpunk bedlam?
    - yellowapple 3y ago
      The one where they can insulate themselves from said cyberpunk bedlam by fleeing to the 'burbs (or forcing the poors out instead via gentrification), building gated communities/complexes, hiring private security, receiving preferential treatment from law enforcement, etc. That worked for a century-ish, but it was never sustainable - and the landed class has a vested interest in doubling-down on that strategy instead of admitting that maybe - just maybe - private exclusive ownership of a natural resource with inelastic supply might be the primary driver of socioeconomic inequality (and with it, crime).
  - onos 3y ago
    So you think the liberalism in sf is helping these people and we need more of it? Or do you think the liberalism in sf we have now is not the right variant?
honeybadger1 3y ago
This won't be fixed in SF because they still believe the solution is less control and more charity.
CensoredInSF 3y ago
It's not the voters, it's the local political machine. You guys are hackers and you can't even be bothered to scope out the problem before you start opining. Anti-humanism is THE San Francisco Value. https://aaronlee.substack.com/p/anti-humanism-is-the-san-francisco https://aaronlee.substack.com/p/anti-humanism-is-the-san-fra...

61 points by xqcgrek2 3y ago

PKop 3y ago

We shouldn't have to live like this. We need a Lee Kuan Yew or Bukele type of leader to step up in these cities and say enough. This passive acceptance of crime and disorder under some misguided sense of compassion or that putting criminals in jail is immoral is pathetic and will lead to ruin. This is not how civilization functions.

Beaver117 3y ago
[flagged]
- PKop 3y ago
  Because normal funcitoning people want to conduct commerce and experience a crime free life visiting these corporations, or any other place, within the cities that they live. We should put criminals in jail and mercilessly shame and make fun of people like you that construct some nonsense rationalization for all of us accepting allowing our homes, our towns our streets to turn into shitholes. You are a LOSER and the rest of us are getting real sick of putting up with your type. I was going to mention in my original post, but I'll add here.. that the misguided moralisms are only part of the problem. There is a not insiginificant portion of the voting (or non voting) population, and political activists, that support and enable this nonsense not out of a misguided sense of compassion but similar to parent comment here, because they have a bitterness and ressentiment towards this or that other part of society and want to see orderly civilization destroyed. In some ways this may even be a subconcious motivation, but it is there. There's been way too much explicit crime and degredation for many to just be fooled by good intentions for this to continue unabated..no, it's something else as well. Many are thrilled with these trends. So.. >You think people are shoplifting from Whole Foods for fun? Yes, absolutely this is a part of it. They do it because they want to and they can. Some may want to stick it to the man like you want them to do. But it doesn't matter, because some sob-story claim of being poor "therefore crime" is untenable even if true and should be rejected out of hand. It's bullshit. Nice places are expensive. The whole world cannot nor should they assume some right to live anywhere just because. Politicial dysfunction does play a part of economic pain, but some people will not be able to make it in expensive places. They do not have a claim to tear down these places just because they can't afford to live there. They deserve jail for that. I want to have nice clean orderly crime-free streets. And this is entirely achievable and has been achieved in many times and places throughout history, in the US as well. The moral position is to take anyone trying to destroy this or inflict crime on people and businesses and put them in prison.
  - sobkas 3y ago
    Rich and powerful no longer fear prosecution and jail. You can destroy economy, do wage theft in billions, war criminals go free without even a tap on the wrist. People see this and such disregard for law trickle down on them. Including law enforcement. And some said that trickle down economy doesn't work. There are only two rules, don't steal from the rich and obey my authority. From this perspective poor stealing from each other is not a problem, as no real law was broken(see above). And in the end poor will eat each other not the rich.
  - dang 3y ago
    The personal attack in this post is totally unacceptable and clearly a bannable offense on HN. Moreover, this has been a problem for years (see links below). Also, it looks like you've been using HN primarily for ideological battle and that's also a line at which we ban accounts (regardless of the ideology they're battling for). Past explanation about that: https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=false&page=0&query=primarily%20test%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme.... I'm not going to ban you right now, but it's a close call; if you keep abusing HN in these ways, we're going to have to. If you'd therefore please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32146474 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32146474 (July 2022) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15621215 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15621215 (Nov 2017) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14116279 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14116279 (April 2017) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13283040 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13283040 (Dec 2016) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12537061 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12537061 (Sept 2016)
    - PKop 3y ago
      Ok, I'm sorry dang, you're right. Thanks for the warning. We need your type of work ethic and desire to maintain a healthy community, along with discipline to be a stickler for enforcement of law and order in public office in some of these cities... they'd be maintained well like Hacker News is maintained well... And yea, if only we all could just keep our heads down and just code & do software, not worry about politics crime and social issues and be left alone & unaffected by their consequences.. Those were the days not long ago huh dang. I miss them too. I'll heed your warning and back off the politics posting going forward
- andromeduck 3y ago
  Coat of living, dominated by housing costs, is being driven you by owner occupiers and mom & pop time landlords like the self avowed socialist on the board of supervisors more than any other factor.
- dang 3y ago
  Please don't take HN threads further into hellish flamewar. Flamewar is not curious conversation and we want curious conversation here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Edit: you've been breaking the site guidelines with unsubstantive comments and flamebait in other threads too. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35579954 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35579954 was particularly awful. We ban accounts that do this repeatedly, so if you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and use HN as intended, we'd appreciate it.
rektide 3y ago
I don't know California, but this reads like a classic & simple cry to suppress people, to take hard lives & make them worse. You talk about a misguided sense of compassion. But what have we really tried except liberalism? Except allowing whatever happens to happen to people? What have we tried to help, to build possible lives? Even for those not living in homed, what have we tried to keep them from sliding off the edge? It's May Day. This cry for dispassion & accusation & intolerance, for jailing each other, should not be the go to plan for when situations get bad. Maybe doing nothing hasn't worked, but rather than resort to striking out against those we are afraid of, we should be trying to make possible paths forwards.
- PKop 3y ago
  [flagged]
- Hatrix 3y ago
  May Day does not really mean anything in the US. You can offer people help but, you can't force them to accept it. They have the resources to get all the drugs they want, iPhones and better camping equipment than I have. A lot of the crime in the area seems to be driven by organized crime groups. Helping homeless people won't stop that.
- TMWNN 3y ago
  You talk about a misguided sense of compassion. But what have we really tried except liberalism? The city of San Francisco spends $70,000 annually per homeless person! <https://abc7news.com/sf-homeless-plan-housing-all-san-francisco-supervisor-rafael-mandelman/12760671/ https://abc7news.com/sf-homeless-plan-housing-all-san-franci...> The homeless there are homeless because severe mental and addiction issues cause them to reject help, not because resources aren't available.

diebeforei485 3y ago

Voters clearly said enough is enough during the past few elections. The Board of Supervisors will continue to pretend everything is okay until they are voted out. Connie Chan, Dean Preston, and Aaron Peskin should go.

readonthegoapp 3y ago
voters have apparently said enough crime prevention.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
peanuty1 3y ago
SF voters have repeatedly voted for soft-on-crime candidates like Chesa Boudin (yes, he's been recalled but it's insane they voted him in to begin with).

infamouscow 3y ago

I hope the voters of San Francisco are open minded enough to accept their policies need to be revised.

helaoban 3y ago

That block (corner of 8th and Market) is particularly nasty. What I find even more perplexing than the city doing nothing is how the large tech companies and their brood that work right next door tolerate it. For those that work in those offices, do you just get bused in everyday, eat all your meals at the cafeteria, and get bused back out, observing the outside world like a snow globe? How do you reconcile the money you make with the destitution at your literal doorstep.

dkokelley 3y ago
Is there something that the bused in/out employees could do to make a difference?
- helaoban 3y ago
  Your question could be generalized to “Do members of a community have a responsibility towards that community.” The answer is obviously yes. Responsibility assumes that conditions can be changed by those responsible, otherwise the concept of responsibility is void. I can direct this reflection at myself in various domains and come to the conclusion that I am falling short of my responsibilities in many ways, but it’s also true that people who walk by the worst of SF’s blocks everyday to pick up there 200k+ salaries are telling themselves everyday “not my problem”.
  - ars 3y ago
    If you actually cared you would work to criminalize all drug use, prosecute even minor offenses, and give food to mentally ill people daily. None of that is beyond reach but the voters of SF don't want those things.
    - yellowapple 3y ago
      Adding yet more criminalization and prosecution is ineffective, as can be seen across the rest of the US; looking at per-capita numbers instead of absolutes, the diversity of interstate drug laws seems to be well-represented in the rankings: http://www.citymayors.com/society/usa-cities-homelessness.html http://www.citymayors.com/society/usa-cities-homelessness.ht... The largely-untried approach is to assess why people are being afflicted with mental health issues and why people are turning to drugs, and to actually address those underlying factors. Drug abuse and mental illness are symptoms of a larger problem, not the cause. That larger problem is likely the one producing other symptoms, like the majority of adults under 30 living with their parents, or 11% of all Americans being at risk of eviction.

onos 3y ago

I don’t believe the problem can be solved, at least in full, but instead we have to pick our poison. We must either choose the current dystopian solution, or instead criminalize / institutionalize these people against their will. One hurts the full population. Is the liberal solution honestly any better for the addicts?

yellowapple 3y ago
It absolutely can be solved. The problem is that SF's landowners have its politics by the balls, which means that policies which could solve homelessness and broader poverty/destitution overnight - like land value taxation with a citizens' dividend - have zero hope of seeing the light of day. SF ain't the only one, either; this is a statewide, regionwide, and nationwide issue. Only reason it's more pronounced on the West Coast is because of the more temperate weather; rough sleepers end up surviving for another year instead of freezing to death in winter.
- corbulo 3y ago
  In what world are landowners not hurt the most by SF turning into cyberpunk bedlam?
  - yellowapple 3y ago
    The one where they can insulate themselves from said cyberpunk bedlam by fleeing to the 'burbs (or forcing the poors out instead via gentrification), building gated communities/complexes, hiring private security, receiving preferential treatment from law enforcement, etc. That worked for a century-ish, but it was never sustainable - and the landed class has a vested interest in doubling-down on that strategy instead of admitting that maybe - just maybe - private exclusive ownership of a natural resource with inelastic supply might be the primary driver of socioeconomic inequality (and with it, crime).
- onos 3y ago
  So you think the liberalism in sf is helping these people and we need more of it? Or do you think the liberalism in sf we have now is not the right variant?

honeybadger1 3y ago

This won't be fixed in SF because they still believe the solution is less control and more charity.

CensoredInSF 3y ago

It's not the voters, it's the local political machine. You guys are hackers and you can't even be bothered to scope out the problem before you start opining. Anti-humanism is THE San Francisco Value. https://aaronlee.substack.com/p/anti-humanism-is-the-san-francisco https://aaronlee.substack.com/p/anti-humanism-is-the-san-fra...