10 ms·

There's a part of this that's never ever commented on >I don't like to say it in front of my wife, but I did sort of neglect her sometimes; I needed to study.

There's a part of this that's never ever commented on >I don't like to say it in front of my wife, but I did sort of neglect her sometimes; I needed to study. You have to neglect things if you intend to get what you want done. There's no question about this. As someone that got married during their PhD and is now finishing up and reflecting: it isn't worth it. Neglecting the people in your life that love you in the pursuit of "science" is no different than neglecting them because you have a drug habit or because you're an inveterate gambler or because you're chasing fame and fortune. The science will get done regardless and the only thing you accomplish is ensuring your own interests. Suffice it to say I'm taking steps make sure my next gig has more room.

JHonaker 3y ago
It really isn't talked about enough. I am contemplating leaving my PhD despite being ABD with the majority of the interesting work done simply because the neglect it inflicts on my family is the cause of the overwhelming majority of conflicts in my life. I truly love working on the problem, investing time in research papers, and experimenting, but I have no desire to stay in academia. Plus, I have a well-paying full-time job (that I took during the pandemic to save my wife from having to shoulder our living expenses basically single-handedly while growing our child inside of her). > Suffice it to say I'm taking steps make sure my next gig has more room. I hear you. It's crazy how mentally abusive a lot of people's relationship with their PhD is. I'm convinced it's one of the reasons so many people with PhDs marry other PhDs. They're the only ones that "understand" the level of single-minded devotion you have to have to be an early career researcher.
ke88y 3y ago
As a PhD, I now believe that pursuing a career in science is an enormously selfish and entitled life choice for anyone who doesn't have a trust fund. It's not just neglect during the PhD. Even a non-neglectful academic is asking a lot of their partner. Stipends are low. Post-docs require chasing term-limited positions around the country, often with little to no savings, for up the half a decade. Building wealth is impossible, having a family is just barely possible, and the process takes you well into mid-life depriving your partner of a career and a real relationship. I have seen more divorces during post-docs than during PhDs. Everyone I know who made it through PhDs and post-docs without scars fell into one of two categories: unmarried or wealthy. I think academia's biggest open secret is that a HUGE number of academics -- especially in and around large metros or in nice climates -- are chasing a prestigious and comfortable job because their trust funds allow them to not care about the money and their upbringing makes it difficult for them to deal with having a manager.
- anonymouskimmer 3y ago
  > As a PhD, I now believe that pursuing a career in science is an enormously selfish and entitled life choice for anyone who doesn't have a trust fund. This is because the career was originally set up for those who were independently wealthy, or at least rich enough to have a spouse who didn't work. All of this stuff happened within the last 150 years, and it was made worse in recent years following the massive increase of skilled people in the discipline. A career in science also differs based on whether you're an academic or in industry. On whether you're out their seeking grants, or out making products to sell. These are all decisions being made based on what people demonstrate that they will tolerate. No different than the Japanese Karoshi-culture. If your Ph.D. or Post-Doc supervisor won't allow you to have a life outside of science, then dump them. Leave them up the creek without a paddle. They are not your only option. At its absolute worse, the hours involved in an academic Ph.D./Post-Doc aren't significantly worse than a chronic precariat worker. I had two jobs during a particular semester when finishing up my A.S., and averaged 3.5 hours of sleep per night (outside of the weekends). I've read about a guy who spent years walking and taking transit for 8 hours each day from his house to his 8-hour a day job. 16 hours per day just dedicated to work. Ultimately his job and/or co-workers pitched in to buy him a car. The harsh hours in scientific academia is ultimately a choice. And the choice is not between science and a life. The choice is between science with this particular supervisor and a life.
  - polishdude20 3y ago
    I wonder if it would be better to go back to that time where PHD's were only for the wealthy? Would there be less incentive to do bullshit studies and cave to political pressures and bribes if the people doing the studies didn't need the job to survive?
    - anonymouskimmer 3y ago
      It was bad even for some of them. (https://www.science20.com/quantum_gravity/blog/phd_octopus_william_james_0 https://www.science20.com/quantum_gravity/blog/phd_octopus_w... ) A one-size-fits-all approach to education and credentialing is the original mistake. A secondary mistake for Ph.D.s in particular is requiring an original contribution to science instead of a demonstration of appropriate levels of mastery, because this requirement really screws over students who realize that their thesis is wrong, or intractable, too late. And even worse incentivizes cheating above and beyond the already existing incentives. > Would there be less incentive to do bullshit studies and cave to political pressures and bribes if the people doing the studies didn't need the job to survive? People who genuinely need the job to survive, quit, and get a job that allows them to survive, sometimes alternating this with academia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Streleski https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Streleski ). Or like the graduate students and Post-docs at the University of California, they band together and strike. Social pressures and sunken-cost fallacies affect enough people of all socioeconomic classes. Especially when the added grief is spun as a status symbol.
nunuvit 3y ago
Higher education isn't made for people with a family life. There's no real reason for this, but there's no pressure to change it because there's always someone else in line ready to take your place.
- DiggyJohnson 3y ago
  The reason for the observation in the first sentence (which I agree with) is the second sentence. Lack of pressure to change something is absolutely a reason in and of itself. How could the system be changed to avoid this?
  - nunuvit 3y ago
    Good question. The proven model so far is reducing funding. Some universities found new ways to raise money by offering online and async course modalities. This benefits students who need the extra flexibility, and it's probably the most significant change that can be made. Increasing proliferation would require grants to surmount the initial investment and the need for guidance from the already successful institutions who paved the way. Another change I'd like to see is shorter undergraduate programs. Most can stand to lose a few classes off the beginning that duplicate high school and a few off the end that duplicate grad school. That might have to be a political decision in response to the high cost of education. Shaving off a year could help you avoid the family issue entirely, especially if you worked for a year or two before returning to grad school. Similarly, another proven model is that senior year of high school can also be used to reduce the duration of college. You can already get college credit, but it's a very fragmented and uneven system. State governments could fix that with policy, again to address the high cost of education.
  - caddemon 3y ago
    I think the system is naturally starting to feel the pressure, albeit it took too long (and may have been expedited by COVID at that). Just look at the number of articles about a postdoc shortage that are cropping up in major journals within the last couple of years. The NIH recently had a "request for information" from late stage PhD students and early postdocs about what could improve their opinions about doing/staying in a postdoc. Anecdotally, many in biology are feeling the heat, and I've heard similar rumors in some other departments. That said, I don't really trust the funding agencies and department heads to do the right things that will actually improve the long-term health of the system. I think we'll end up with a shitty band-aid solution instead like giving postdocs mediocre raises. It could take a really long time for the system to truly crumble enough to force change. We'll see though, I hope things take a turn for the better in the coming years because certainly I know many PIs that are frustrated for one reason or another. If you get enough profs on the same page it could have some actual power.
BlandDuck 3y ago
I am a reasonably successful researcher, and I admit to neglecting my wife sometimes, especially in my early career. However, I would venture that being successful in any career --- be it research, business, politics, arts --- requires a certain amount of focus and neglect of your family and friends. But later, if you succeed, you can make it up to them and make it worth it for them as well.
- ke88y 3y ago
  > However, I would venture that being successful in any career --- be it research, business, politics, arts --- requires a certain amount of focus and neglect of your family and friends. A warning for the younger readers in our midst: this is NOT how most relationships work. You normally don't get to mismanage a relationship and then "make up for it" later. When you do, there are almost always lasting scars. That said: this might be true for business and politics. But academics? LOL. Becoming a professor, even at a top university, is a pretty pathetic definition of "success". A professor is a mid-level manager position that pays about the same as an entry-level position at a top tech or finance firm. Most people involved in allocating budget / selecting projects understand that the work being managed is mostly not valuable; that's why they don't mind telling you that you need to pay your subordinates about what they'd make at McDonald's. It's a first line management job where pay is not enough to "make up" for the lost years and the work almost always literally doesn't matter. > But later, if you succeed, you can make it up to them and make it worth it for them as well. This might be true in business and politics, and to some extent in arts, but it's not true in academia. And to the extent that it is true, it's enabled by pushing shit down the hill. Which is why I'm a lapsed academic. I turned down my TT offers because I realized that I couldn't, in good conscience, build a career out of abusing junior labor. And universities put hard constraints on how you pay and manage PhD students, so avoiding at least financial abuse is mostly impossible.
  - andrepd 3y ago
    Have you considered some people might not conflate "success" with "net worth"? Wealth = success is a very tired trope, I thought everybody realised what a sham that way of thinking is. Who cares if they make more or less than a techbro? If they're happy with their job and they earn enough to pay for things they want (house, vacations, whatever), then they should chase the rat-race of the "ladder of success" because...?
abhayhegde 3y ago
I agree that this issue has never been talked enough. I am doing PhD now and recently went through a breakup which mostly happened because I could not give enough time for the relationship.
qumpis 3y ago
How are your future prospects looking? How have your goals shifted? I'm curious more specifically what kind of job titles you'll be looking for, if you have any in mind.
1123581321 3y ago
It's been mentioned several times here, in addition to discussions outside of HN. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=I%20don%27t%20like%20to%20say%20it%20in%20front%20of%20my%20wife%2C%20but%20I%20did%20sort%20of%20neglect%20her%20sometimes%3B%20I%20needed%20to%20study.&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...
- mathisfun123 3y ago
  I strongly encourage you to take a closer look at each of the algolia results.
  - 1123581321 3y ago
    Commented on isn't the same as criticized. If you were meaning that only that one sentence must be quoted to count, though, then yes, you are right that this is an innovation on Hacker News.
    - mathisfun123 3y ago
      Every single algolia response quotes the enclosing paragraph and not a single one speaks to the sentence I pulled out. Speaking of innovation on hn, this is definitely innovative levels of pedantry.
      - 1123581321 3y ago
        Thanks! That's hard to accomplish here.
gnull 3y ago
And, honestly, science many of us do isn't that impressive to be worth it.
Fomite 3y ago
In contrast, grad school allowed me enough flexibility on how and where I worked that my wife was able to pursue her career ambitions without me having to compromise my own.
paulpauper 3y ago
As someone that got married during their PhD and is now finishing up and reflecting: it isn't worth it. Neglecting the people in your life that love you in the pursuit of "science" is no different than neglecting them because you have a drug habit or because you're an inveterate gambler or because you're chasing fame and fortune. The science will get done regardless and the only thing you accomplish is ensuring your own interests. Suffice it to say I'm taking steps make sure my next gig has more room. The answer is simple and obvious: be alone. It wont work for everyone but it works for me. Valuing your time means having to say no to intrusions and impositions.
spoonjim 3y ago
What if every scientist had said this? We’d be living in mud huts and dying at 35. Progress is important. Nobody personally has to commit to it but as a society we need some people to.
- caddemon 3y ago
  Look up the percentage of current postdocs that will receive a tenure track position at a major research university. Then cut that number in half after 5 more years of ridiculous grind as an assistant prof. You're looking at less than 20% chance even if you're willing to move to bumfuck. If you have location restrictions or higher standards on university (which impacts e.g. the amount of funding you can realistically get), it's approaching low single digits in most fields. Modern academic science is really its own special breed, and unfortunately a lot of that grinding these days goes to fighting the crazy career ladder, not so much directly to obsessive, curious science.
j7ake 3y ago
Not only was there neglect, but I also noticed they had no kids (not sure by choice or whatever). Hamming definitely made lots of sacrifices to become famous. Although if you noticed his achievements, they were actually all done early in his career, rather than late.
lelanthran 3y ago
> it isn't worth it. Neglecting the people in your life that love you in the pursuit of "science" is no different than neglecting them because you have a drug habit or because you're an inveterate gambler or because you're chasing fame and fortune. It depends; the neglect during studies is a temporary thing! All thos other things you mention are permanent things! There's very little similarity between "temporarily neglecting family to provide better opportunities to my kids"[1] and "permanently neglecting family to get a high". [1] Make no mistake, you can introduce your kids to better opportunities in a your social circle of Phds (or MBAs, etc) than your social circle of whoever your current colleagues are.

JHonaker 3y ago

It really isn't talked about enough. I am contemplating leaving my PhD despite being ABD with the majority of the interesting work done simply because the neglect it inflicts on my family is the cause of the overwhelming majority of conflicts in my life. I truly love working on the problem, investing time in research papers, and experimenting, but I have no desire to stay in academia. Plus, I have a well-paying full-time job (that I took during the pandemic to save my wife from having to shoulder our living expenses basically single-handedly while growing our child inside of her). > Suffice it to say I'm taking steps make sure my next gig has more room. I hear you. It's crazy how mentally abusive a lot of people's relationship with their PhD is. I'm convinced it's one of the reasons so many people with PhDs marry other PhDs. They're the only ones that "understand" the level of single-minded devotion you have to have to be an early career researcher.

ke88y 3y ago

As a PhD, I now believe that pursuing a career in science is an enormously selfish and entitled life choice for anyone who doesn't have a trust fund. It's not just neglect during the PhD. Even a non-neglectful academic is asking a lot of their partner. Stipends are low. Post-docs require chasing term-limited positions around the country, often with little to no savings, for up the half a decade. Building wealth is impossible, having a family is just barely possible, and the process takes you well into mid-life depriving your partner of a career and a real relationship. I have seen more divorces during post-docs than during PhDs. Everyone I know who made it through PhDs and post-docs without scars fell into one of two categories: unmarried or wealthy. I think academia's biggest open secret is that a HUGE number of academics -- especially in and around large metros or in nice climates -- are chasing a prestigious and comfortable job because their trust funds allow them to not care about the money and their upbringing makes it difficult for them to deal with having a manager.

anonymouskimmer 3y ago
> As a PhD, I now believe that pursuing a career in science is an enormously selfish and entitled life choice for anyone who doesn't have a trust fund. This is because the career was originally set up for those who were independently wealthy, or at least rich enough to have a spouse who didn't work. All of this stuff happened within the last 150 years, and it was made worse in recent years following the massive increase of skilled people in the discipline. A career in science also differs based on whether you're an academic or in industry. On whether you're out their seeking grants, or out making products to sell. These are all decisions being made based on what people demonstrate that they will tolerate. No different than the Japanese Karoshi-culture. If your Ph.D. or Post-Doc supervisor won't allow you to have a life outside of science, then dump them. Leave them up the creek without a paddle. They are not your only option. At its absolute worse, the hours involved in an academic Ph.D./Post-Doc aren't significantly worse than a chronic precariat worker. I had two jobs during a particular semester when finishing up my A.S., and averaged 3.5 hours of sleep per night (outside of the weekends). I've read about a guy who spent years walking and taking transit for 8 hours each day from his house to his 8-hour a day job. 16 hours per day just dedicated to work. Ultimately his job and/or co-workers pitched in to buy him a car. The harsh hours in scientific academia is ultimately a choice. And the choice is not between science and a life. The choice is between science with this particular supervisor and a life.
- polishdude20 3y ago
  I wonder if it would be better to go back to that time where PHD's were only for the wealthy? Would there be less incentive to do bullshit studies and cave to political pressures and bribes if the people doing the studies didn't need the job to survive?
  - anonymouskimmer 3y ago
    It was bad even for some of them. (https://www.science20.com/quantum_gravity/blog/phd_octopus_william_james_0 https://www.science20.com/quantum_gravity/blog/phd_octopus_w... ) A one-size-fits-all approach to education and credentialing is the original mistake. A secondary mistake for Ph.D.s in particular is requiring an original contribution to science instead of a demonstration of appropriate levels of mastery, because this requirement really screws over students who realize that their thesis is wrong, or intractable, too late. And even worse incentivizes cheating above and beyond the already existing incentives. > Would there be less incentive to do bullshit studies and cave to political pressures and bribes if the people doing the studies didn't need the job to survive? People who genuinely need the job to survive, quit, and get a job that allows them to survive, sometimes alternating this with academia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Streleski https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Streleski ). Or like the graduate students and Post-docs at the University of California, they band together and strike. Social pressures and sunken-cost fallacies affect enough people of all socioeconomic classes. Especially when the added grief is spun as a status symbol.

nunuvit 3y ago

Higher education isn't made for people with a family life. There's no real reason for this, but there's no pressure to change it because there's always someone else in line ready to take your place.

DiggyJohnson 3y ago
The reason for the observation in the first sentence (which I agree with) is the second sentence. Lack of pressure to change something is absolutely a reason in and of itself. How could the system be changed to avoid this?
- nunuvit 3y ago
  Good question. The proven model so far is reducing funding. Some universities found new ways to raise money by offering online and async course modalities. This benefits students who need the extra flexibility, and it's probably the most significant change that can be made. Increasing proliferation would require grants to surmount the initial investment and the need for guidance from the already successful institutions who paved the way. Another change I'd like to see is shorter undergraduate programs. Most can stand to lose a few classes off the beginning that duplicate high school and a few off the end that duplicate grad school. That might have to be a political decision in response to the high cost of education. Shaving off a year could help you avoid the family issue entirely, especially if you worked for a year or two before returning to grad school. Similarly, another proven model is that senior year of high school can also be used to reduce the duration of college. You can already get college credit, but it's a very fragmented and uneven system. State governments could fix that with policy, again to address the high cost of education.
- caddemon 3y ago
  I think the system is naturally starting to feel the pressure, albeit it took too long (and may have been expedited by COVID at that). Just look at the number of articles about a postdoc shortage that are cropping up in major journals within the last couple of years. The NIH recently had a "request for information" from late stage PhD students and early postdocs about what could improve their opinions about doing/staying in a postdoc. Anecdotally, many in biology are feeling the heat, and I've heard similar rumors in some other departments. That said, I don't really trust the funding agencies and department heads to do the right things that will actually improve the long-term health of the system. I think we'll end up with a shitty band-aid solution instead like giving postdocs mediocre raises. It could take a really long time for the system to truly crumble enough to force change. We'll see though, I hope things take a turn for the better in the coming years because certainly I know many PIs that are frustrated for one reason or another. If you get enough profs on the same page it could have some actual power.

BlandDuck 3y ago

I am a reasonably successful researcher, and I admit to neglecting my wife sometimes, especially in my early career. However, I would venture that being successful in any career --- be it research, business, politics, arts --- requires a certain amount of focus and neglect of your family and friends. But later, if you succeed, you can make it up to them and make it worth it for them as well.

ke88y 3y ago
> However, I would venture that being successful in any career --- be it research, business, politics, arts --- requires a certain amount of focus and neglect of your family and friends. A warning for the younger readers in our midst: this is NOT how most relationships work. You normally don't get to mismanage a relationship and then "make up for it" later. When you do, there are almost always lasting scars. That said: this might be true for business and politics. But academics? LOL. Becoming a professor, even at a top university, is a pretty pathetic definition of "success". A professor is a mid-level manager position that pays about the same as an entry-level position at a top tech or finance firm. Most people involved in allocating budget / selecting projects understand that the work being managed is mostly not valuable; that's why they don't mind telling you that you need to pay your subordinates about what they'd make at McDonald's. It's a first line management job where pay is not enough to "make up" for the lost years and the work almost always literally doesn't matter. > But later, if you succeed, you can make it up to them and make it worth it for them as well. This might be true in business and politics, and to some extent in arts, but it's not true in academia. And to the extent that it is true, it's enabled by pushing shit down the hill. Which is why I'm a lapsed academic. I turned down my TT offers because I realized that I couldn't, in good conscience, build a career out of abusing junior labor. And universities put hard constraints on how you pay and manage PhD students, so avoiding at least financial abuse is mostly impossible.
- andrepd 3y ago
  Have you considered some people might not conflate "success" with "net worth"? Wealth = success is a very tired trope, I thought everybody realised what a sham that way of thinking is. Who cares if they make more or less than a techbro? If they're happy with their job and they earn enough to pay for things they want (house, vacations, whatever), then they should chase the rat-race of the "ladder of success" because...?

abhayhegde 3y ago

I agree that this issue has never been talked enough. I am doing PhD now and recently went through a breakup which mostly happened because I could not give enough time for the relationship.

qumpis 3y ago

How are your future prospects looking? How have your goals shifted? I'm curious more specifically what kind of job titles you'll be looking for, if you have any in mind.

1123581321 3y ago

It's been mentioned several times here, in addition to discussions outside of HN. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=I%20don%27t%20like%20to%20say%20it%20in%20front%20of%20my%20wife%2C%20but%20I%20did%20sort%20of%20neglect%20her%20sometimes%3B%20I%20needed%20to%20study.&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...

mathisfun123 3y ago
I strongly encourage you to take a closer look at each of the algolia results.
- 1123581321 3y ago
  Commented on isn't the same as criticized. If you were meaning that only that one sentence must be quoted to count, though, then yes, you are right that this is an innovation on Hacker News.
  - mathisfun123 3y ago
    Every single algolia response quotes the enclosing paragraph and not a single one speaks to the sentence I pulled out. Speaking of innovation on hn, this is definitely innovative levels of pedantry.
    - 1123581321 3y ago
      Thanks! That's hard to accomplish here.

gnull 3y ago

And, honestly, science many of us do isn't that impressive to be worth it.

Fomite 3y ago

In contrast, grad school allowed me enough flexibility on how and where I worked that my wife was able to pursue her career ambitions without me having to compromise my own.

paulpauper 3y ago

As someone that got married during their PhD and is now finishing up and reflecting: it isn't worth it. Neglecting the people in your life that love you in the pursuit of "science" is no different than neglecting them because you have a drug habit or because you're an inveterate gambler or because you're chasing fame and fortune. The science will get done regardless and the only thing you accomplish is ensuring your own interests. Suffice it to say I'm taking steps make sure my next gig has more room. The answer is simple and obvious: be alone. It wont work for everyone but it works for me. Valuing your time means having to say no to intrusions and impositions.

spoonjim 3y ago

What if every scientist had said this? We’d be living in mud huts and dying at 35. Progress is important. Nobody personally has to commit to it but as a society we need some people to.

caddemon 3y ago
Look up the percentage of current postdocs that will receive a tenure track position at a major research university. Then cut that number in half after 5 more years of ridiculous grind as an assistant prof. You're looking at less than 20% chance even if you're willing to move to bumfuck. If you have location restrictions or higher standards on university (which impacts e.g. the amount of funding you can realistically get), it's approaching low single digits in most fields. Modern academic science is really its own special breed, and unfortunately a lot of that grinding these days goes to fighting the crazy career ladder, not so much directly to obsessive, curious science.

j7ake 3y ago

Not only was there neglect, but I also noticed they had no kids (not sure by choice or whatever). Hamming definitely made lots of sacrifices to become famous. Although if you noticed his achievements, they were actually all done early in his career, rather than late.

lelanthran 3y ago

> it isn't worth it. Neglecting the people in your life that love you in the pursuit of "science" is no different than neglecting them because you have a drug habit or because you're an inveterate gambler or because you're chasing fame and fortune. It depends; the neglect during studies is a temporary thing! All thos other things you mention are permanent things! There's very little similarity between "temporarily neglecting family to provide better opportunities to my kids"[1] and "permanently neglecting family to get a high". [1] Make no mistake, you can introduce your kids to better opportunities in a your social circle of Phds (or MBAs, etc) than your social circle of whoever your current colleagues are.