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You may be surprised to find out that outside of HN, not many people use Internet freedom as a prime measurement of dystopia. As a techie I am personally also

You may be surprised to find out that outside of HN, not many people use Internet freedom as a prime measurement of dystopia. As a techie I am personally also very annoyed at the lack of Internet freedom. But as a Chinese I also recognize that there are many more aspects in life and society that are more important than Internet freedom, and that China scores pretty high at (especially in historic context).

krzyk 3y ago
Like the right to protest?
- FooBarWidget 3y ago
  Well people protested against 0-covid during a time that the media reported as "Xi wants to maintain 0-covid forever because he wants more control". Mere days later, 0-covid was lifted. Sounds like a prime example of "the expected dystopia never materializes" to me.
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    Uhm, people were protesting 0-covid in China for almost a year before Xi lifted it. It wasn't like there was a protest, and Xi lifted it right away. It took the CPC sometime to figure out they were doing the wrong strategy.
  - krzyk 3y ago
    I'm sure people that protested were taken care of. Like the one that just got out of jail after 3 years (he reported the spread in Wuhan). BTW. How is Wikipedia looking from China, blank spots?
catiopatio 3y ago
When you dismissively say “internet freedom”, what you really mean is “free expression”, “freedom of association”, “right to peaceably assembly”, and “right to petition your government for a redress of grievances”. Even this photo is still censored: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank_Man https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank_Man
- FooBarWidget 3y ago
  I'll give you something much simpler than all of those things: having enough food, having housing that doesn't leak, having running water, having electricity, having access to schooling, having toilets, not having nearly every street in the city be a dirty mud pool full of trash, having safe streets mostly devoid of violent crimes. None of those things were a given when I grew up. Those things ard still not a given in many countries in which the west tried to forcefully introduce western liberal democracy, where they all focus on things like "freedom of association" at the expense of freedom from poverty. When you are poor, you are not free, no matter how much you can voice your opinion. I am sorry but seeing my parents and grandparents working their asses off in a society where your next meal is not guaranteed, lifting 800M people out of poverty, seeing my hometown stop being a trashy mudpool and seeing the elimination of child abductions, count for much more to me than any amount of VPN annoyance. In the grand scheme of things, these are still literally the best 30 years out of 3000 years.
  - catiopatio 3y ago
    Why are you pretending these things are mutually exclusive? You can, in fact, lift a country out of poverty without also inflicting an authoritarian state on the populace. Half the world managed it — you’re just making excuses for authoritarianism. We’re discussing basic human rights, not “VPN annoyance”.
    - FooBarWidget 3y ago
      If you truly want to know what I think and why I think it, feel free to email me and take this discussion off HN. You can find my contact through my profile.
      - catiopatio 3y ago
        If you can’t make the case for China’s authoritarian capitalism here, I don’t see how picking it up over e-mail is going to help. It’s also counterproductive to take the debate offline, as further discussion would be for the benefit of anyone else that might read this thread. I’ll never agree that lifting people out of poverty requires authoritarian control over the populace.
fifilura 3y ago
...said the Russians. Until they got drafted into an illegal war...
- FooBarWidget 3y ago
  I am not Russian and China is not Russia
  - kortilla 3y ago
    What protections does China have from an abusive government that Russia didn’t?
  - fifilura 3y ago
    My stron belief is that freedom of speech (free internet) together with democratic elections are the only things that combined can prevent the government from coming up with their own rules when it so suits them. And when they eventually do, you will have nothing to say about it Just like the russians today. They too have a rich culture of writers, poets and composers that they should have the right to be proud of.
- elzbardico 3y ago
  Said the Americans. Until they got drafted into an illegal war in Vietnam or were given no other chance to earn a living than getting paid to kill in illegal wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. And let’s not even talking about all the coups the State Department and the CIA nurtured across countless countries
  - fifilura 3y ago
    And here you are. With the possibility, and legal permission, to say just that. Good that you are.
    - elzbardico 3y ago
      Just because I pose no real threat to the system and by being allowed to ineffectively ranting I help to build the illusion of freedom. Now, try being Chelsea Manning and watch in awe the speed of the boot coming into your face the minute you really threaten the system.

krzyk 3y ago

Like the right to protest?

FooBarWidget 3y ago
Well people protested against 0-covid during a time that the media reported as "Xi wants to maintain 0-covid forever because he wants more control". Mere days later, 0-covid was lifted. Sounds like a prime example of "the expected dystopia never materializes" to me.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  Uhm, people were protesting 0-covid in China for almost a year before Xi lifted it. It wasn't like there was a protest, and Xi lifted it right away. It took the CPC sometime to figure out they were doing the wrong strategy.
- krzyk 3y ago
  I'm sure people that protested were taken care of. Like the one that just got out of jail after 3 years (he reported the spread in Wuhan). BTW. How is Wikipedia looking from China, blank spots?

catiopatio 3y ago

When you dismissively say “internet freedom”, what you really mean is “free expression”, “freedom of association”, “right to peaceably assembly”, and “right to petition your government for a redress of grievances”. Even this photo is still censored: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank_Man https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank_Man

FooBarWidget 3y ago
I'll give you something much simpler than all of those things: having enough food, having housing that doesn't leak, having running water, having electricity, having access to schooling, having toilets, not having nearly every street in the city be a dirty mud pool full of trash, having safe streets mostly devoid of violent crimes. None of those things were a given when I grew up. Those things ard still not a given in many countries in which the west tried to forcefully introduce western liberal democracy, where they all focus on things like "freedom of association" at the expense of freedom from poverty. When you are poor, you are not free, no matter how much you can voice your opinion. I am sorry but seeing my parents and grandparents working their asses off in a society where your next meal is not guaranteed, lifting 800M people out of poverty, seeing my hometown stop being a trashy mudpool and seeing the elimination of child abductions, count for much more to me than any amount of VPN annoyance. In the grand scheme of things, these are still literally the best 30 years out of 3000 years.
- catiopatio 3y ago
  Why are you pretending these things are mutually exclusive? You can, in fact, lift a country out of poverty without also inflicting an authoritarian state on the populace. Half the world managed it — you’re just making excuses for authoritarianism. We’re discussing basic human rights, not “VPN annoyance”.
  - FooBarWidget 3y ago
    If you truly want to know what I think and why I think it, feel free to email me and take this discussion off HN. You can find my contact through my profile.
    - catiopatio 3y ago
      If you can’t make the case for China’s authoritarian capitalism here, I don’t see how picking it up over e-mail is going to help. It’s also counterproductive to take the debate offline, as further discussion would be for the benefit of anyone else that might read this thread. I’ll never agree that lifting people out of poverty requires authoritarian control over the populace.

fifilura 3y ago

...said the Russians. Until they got drafted into an illegal war...

FooBarWidget 3y ago
I am not Russian and China is not Russia
- kortilla 3y ago
  What protections does China have from an abusive government that Russia didn’t?
- fifilura 3y ago
  My stron belief is that freedom of speech (free internet) together with democratic elections are the only things that combined can prevent the government from coming up with their own rules when it so suits them. And when they eventually do, you will have nothing to say about it Just like the russians today. They too have a rich culture of writers, poets and composers that they should have the right to be proud of.
elzbardico 3y ago
Said the Americans. Until they got drafted into an illegal war in Vietnam or were given no other chance to earn a living than getting paid to kill in illegal wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. And let’s not even talking about all the coups the State Department and the CIA nurtured across countless countries
- fifilura 3y ago
  And here you are. With the possibility, and legal permission, to say just that. Good that you are.
  - elzbardico 3y ago
    Just because I pose no real threat to the system and by being allowed to ineffectively ranting I help to build the illusion of freedom. Now, try being Chelsea Manning and watch in awe the speed of the boot coming into your face the minute you really threaten the system.