5 ms·

> In the West, what you do when you leave the office was and is your own business. In the USSR, it was everyone else’s. Is this actually true? In Germany at le

> In the West, what you do when you leave the office was and is your own business. In the USSR, it was everyone else’s. Is this actually true? In Germany at least, vacation from work is not truly our own time. We are legally required to use it to relax and restore our capacity for future work. Few people probably see it that way, admittedly. Of course, there is still a huge difference, but it's awkward to view everything through that us-versus-them lens.

justinpombrio 3y ago
What do you mean "legally required"? E.g. is there a law that says that specifically, or a common interpretation of a law that says something vaguer, or a common clause in employment contracts, or were you being metaphorical and it isn't actually legal? I'm from the US, and this sounds very strange to my ears.
- evilspammer 3y ago
  it's more to prevent employers from making you work during vacation
  - fweimer 3y ago
    Literally, it's about preventing taking a second, paid job during vacation from your first employer. So it's not entirely clear whether this is about protecting employers or employees. As far as I know, non-competes for blue collar workers are uncommon (or at least they used to be).
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
- izacus 3y ago
  The OP just decided to strangely translate a clause that asks for employees to not demand work during cation (the usual US "I'm still reading my emails") and that they cannot work at another job in that time.
- nicbou 3y ago
  I don't have the immediate texts at hand but I cite sources in my guide about taking time off in Germany. The law is very unambiguous about what vacations are for. A nice example is that if you get sick during your vacation, it counts as sick days and you can use your vacation days at a later time. https://allaboutberlin.com/guides/vacation-days https://allaboutberlin.com/guides/vacation-days My guides about sick leave and sabbaticals just add a bit of context. Sick days are really well protected.
mustacheemperor 3y ago
>We are legally required to use it to relax and restore our capacity for future work. Well that's an interesting bit of trivia. Can you share anything more about it? Just for my own amusement and the amusement of people I will relate it to in the future, I would love to read whatever dry legal code sets that in writing.
- bckygldstn 3y ago
  Perhaps the OP is referring to laws preventing employers from asking employees to work while on holiday: https://www.quora.com/Is-there-a-law-in-Germany-or-any-other-country-that-forbids-your-boss-from-contacting-you-while-you-are-on-a-vacation https://www.quora.com/Is-there-a-law-in-Germany-or-any-other...
- fweimer 3y ago
  It's hard to translate. The law speaks of Erholungsurlaub, which could be translated as “recuperation vacation“. That already sets a clear purpose. There is also a clause that prevents us from working during vacation if that work endangers the purpose of the vacation (that is, recuperation): https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/burlg/__8.html https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/burlg/__8.html Other countries have non-competes, employer ownership of things created during off-hours, and so on.
nverno 3y ago
What are the legal repercussions if you don't use your time off to relax and restore?
- fweimer 3y ago
  As long as the relationship with the employer is fine, none.
- nicbou 3y ago
  You are forced to take vacations. What you do with them is beyond your employer's control.
  - xioxox 3y ago
    I'm not forced to take vacations in Germany by my employer (large research institution). They roll over for a year, but then expire.
    - nicbou 3y ago
      You are forced by law to take at least two consecutive weeks once a year. But yes my employer also allowed this and one of my colleagues had accumulated an absurd amount. You still had to take two weeks but could keep the rest.
krisoft 3y ago
> We are legally required to use it to relax and restore our capacity for future work. What does that mean in practice? Will the police come knocking on your door if they see you digging up the garden? Will someone arrest you if you go sailing and get bonged in the head by accident instead of resting? If you use your vacation days to help your grandma move a grand piano will you get in trouble? If you do your taxes on your vacation day will they refuse your forms?
- fweimer 3y ago
  It's not a criminal matter. The employer might bring it up if there is an employment dispute. An employee who regularly comes back from vacation injured or sick is likely to raise some eyebrows (similarly for coming to work every Monday with a massive hangover), but it's totally at the discretion of the employer if they want to do anything about it. On the other hand, we do get separate sick days (technically even if we get sick during vacation, but I don't know if anyone actually tries to get vacation days back they lost due to sickness). It's very different from countries when you just get time-off days and have to use them for both holidaying and covering sick leaves.
  - ivan_gammel 3y ago
    >I don't know if anyone actually tries to get vacation days back they lost due to sickness This does happen, because why not, if it’s your right. I have seen it a few times.
- Ekaros 3y ago
  More that you can not get an other job while vacation. Working full time at it.
meindnoch 3y ago
Lol. So you can't remodel your house while on PTO? Somehow I doubt this is the case...
- ivan_gammel 3y ago
  Agree. I’m not a legal expert but I’m sure the court would take the side of an employee in such cases. Treating vacation as only a treat for the employee’s body that must rest is nonsense. When you take vacation to work as caregiver for your family member or to improve quality of your life with some home project, or even to dedicate time to your hobby that may be a physical challenge but offers you spiritual fulfillment is perfectly normal. Nobody shall be able to deny you that.

justinpombrio 3y ago

What do you mean "legally required"? E.g. is there a law that says that specifically, or a common interpretation of a law that says something vaguer, or a common clause in employment contracts, or were you being metaphorical and it isn't actually legal? I'm from the US, and this sounds very strange to my ears.

evilspammer 3y ago
it's more to prevent employers from making you work during vacation
- fweimer 3y ago
  Literally, it's about preventing taking a second, paid job during vacation from your first employer. So it's not entirely clear whether this is about protecting employers or employees. As far as I know, non-competes for blue collar workers are uncommon (or at least they used to be).
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
izacus 3y ago
The OP just decided to strangely translate a clause that asks for employees to not demand work during cation (the usual US "I'm still reading my emails") and that they cannot work at another job in that time.
nicbou 3y ago
I don't have the immediate texts at hand but I cite sources in my guide about taking time off in Germany. The law is very unambiguous about what vacations are for. A nice example is that if you get sick during your vacation, it counts as sick days and you can use your vacation days at a later time. https://allaboutberlin.com/guides/vacation-days https://allaboutberlin.com/guides/vacation-days My guides about sick leave and sabbaticals just add a bit of context. Sick days are really well protected.

mustacheemperor 3y ago

>We are legally required to use it to relax and restore our capacity for future work. Well that's an interesting bit of trivia. Can you share anything more about it? Just for my own amusement and the amusement of people I will relate it to in the future, I would love to read whatever dry legal code sets that in writing.

bckygldstn 3y ago
Perhaps the OP is referring to laws preventing employers from asking employees to work while on holiday: https://www.quora.com/Is-there-a-law-in-Germany-or-any-other-country-that-forbids-your-boss-from-contacting-you-while-you-are-on-a-vacation https://www.quora.com/Is-there-a-law-in-Germany-or-any-other...
fweimer 3y ago
It's hard to translate. The law speaks of Erholungsurlaub, which could be translated as “recuperation vacation“. That already sets a clear purpose. There is also a clause that prevents us from working during vacation if that work endangers the purpose of the vacation (that is, recuperation): https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/burlg/__8.html https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/burlg/__8.html Other countries have non-competes, employer ownership of things created during off-hours, and so on.

nverno 3y ago

What are the legal repercussions if you don't use your time off to relax and restore?

fweimer 3y ago
As long as the relationship with the employer is fine, none.
nicbou 3y ago
You are forced to take vacations. What you do with them is beyond your employer's control.
- xioxox 3y ago
  I'm not forced to take vacations in Germany by my employer (large research institution). They roll over for a year, but then expire.
  - nicbou 3y ago
    You are forced by law to take at least two consecutive weeks once a year. But yes my employer also allowed this and one of my colleagues had accumulated an absurd amount. You still had to take two weeks but could keep the rest.

krisoft 3y ago

> We are legally required to use it to relax and restore our capacity for future work. What does that mean in practice? Will the police come knocking on your door if they see you digging up the garden? Will someone arrest you if you go sailing and get bonged in the head by accident instead of resting? If you use your vacation days to help your grandma move a grand piano will you get in trouble? If you do your taxes on your vacation day will they refuse your forms?

fweimer 3y ago
It's not a criminal matter. The employer might bring it up if there is an employment dispute. An employee who regularly comes back from vacation injured or sick is likely to raise some eyebrows (similarly for coming to work every Monday with a massive hangover), but it's totally at the discretion of the employer if they want to do anything about it. On the other hand, we do get separate sick days (technically even if we get sick during vacation, but I don't know if anyone actually tries to get vacation days back they lost due to sickness). It's very different from countries when you just get time-off days and have to use them for both holidaying and covering sick leaves.
- ivan_gammel 3y ago
  >I don't know if anyone actually tries to get vacation days back they lost due to sickness This does happen, because why not, if it’s your right. I have seen it a few times.
Ekaros 3y ago
More that you can not get an other job while vacation. Working full time at it.

meindnoch 3y ago

Lol. So you can't remodel your house while on PTO? Somehow I doubt this is the case...

ivan_gammel 3y ago
Agree. I’m not a legal expert but I’m sure the court would take the side of an employee in such cases. Treating vacation as only a treat for the employee’s body that must rest is nonsense. When you take vacation to work as caregiver for your family member or to improve quality of your life with some home project, or even to dedicate time to your hobby that may be a physical challenge but offers you spiritual fulfillment is perfectly normal. Nobody shall be able to deny you that.