16 ms·

Mormons Make Great FBI Recruits

80 points by churchill 3y ago

churchill 3y ago
TLDR: 1. Strong foreign language skills from overseas missions. 2. It's easier getting them security clearances since they don't use drugs or alcohol.
- pelagicAustral 3y ago
  This reminds me of one of my favorite quotes from Burn After Reading. From Osborne Cox when being dismissed from his job as an analyst: > I have a drinking problem? Fuck you, Peck! You're a Mormon! Next to you, we all have a drinking problem!
- sidewndr46 3y ago
  Lots of people think this means "don't smoke" or something like that. From the members I have conversed with, they are forbidden from using caffeine.
  - lolinder 3y ago
    Coffee and black/green tea are typically considered to be prohibited (I know active members who drink green tea and still participate fully), but caffeine in general isn't banned. One of the apostles even acknowledged drinking a whole lot of diet coke to help while learning to use a computer[0]: > It took a great deal of time, repetition, patience; no small amount of hope and faith; lots of reassurance from my wife; and many liters of a diet soda that shall remain nameless. [0] https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2016/10/o-how-great-the-plan-of-our-god?lang=eng https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference...
    - sidewndr46 3y ago
      I'm not a member, just going off what they told me. From what I understand the actual edicts (maybe it's called something) else aren't really supposed to be published or talked about. So I've only talked to ex-mormons about this.
      - lolinder 3y ago
        I am a member, and every actual commandment is definitely public record. Even the temple covenants are (as of recently) public record[0], and those used to be the ones that were held in the highest level of secrecy. There are a whole lot of people who have their own interpretations of the commandments, and that coupled with our history of secrecy surrounding the temple could definitely give rise to the idea that it's difficult to know what all the requirements are, but it's all online and available to everyone at this point. Here's the relevant information about the health code[1]: > The Lord revealed in the Word of Wisdom that the following substances are harmful: > Alcoholic drinks (see Doctrine and Covenants 89:5–7). > Tobacco (see Doctrine and Covenants 89:8). > Tea and coffee (see Doctrine and Covenants 89:9; latter-day prophets have taught that the term “hot drinks,” as written in this verse, refers to tea and coffee). [0] https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/temples/what-is-temple-endowment?lang=eng https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/temples/what-is-temple-e... [1] https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/word-of-wisdom https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topi...
        csdvrx 3y ago
        I've checked the website and it's easy to get lost clicking around like on tvtropes.org > I am a member, and every actual commandment is definitely public record. Even the temple covenants are (as of recently) public record[0], and those used to be the ones that were held in the highest level of secrecy. Great! So here's a very legit question: is there a PDF version that I could read linearly to get a good idea of the whole doctrine? (I mean something like the Talmud) I'm just curious and want to learn.
        lolinder 3y ago
        It's obviously very difficult to compress any religion's doctrines down into an easily digestible form, but the pamphlets used by the missionaries do a pretty good job of summarizing the most important points [0]. Beyond that, the Gospel Topics[1] section is, as you found, a bit of a rabbit hole, but contains the church's official stance on any topic where they've taken a stance. If you can't find it there, it's likely that there isn't an official consensus. [0] https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/handbooks-and-callings/mission-callings/teaching-pamphlets https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/handbooks-and-call... [1] https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topi...
  - seanw444 3y ago
    It depends on the family. My girlfriend wasn't allowed to drink any caffeine when she was a kid. Caffeine was normal in my family though. Coffee is pretty universally frowned upon (I don't get it either). Apparently Mtn Dew > Coffee as it pertains to health. They base their dietary standard on the "Word of Wisdom". Source: grew up Mormon, and still have a close relationship with my Mormon family.
  - specialist 3y ago
    Opinions differ. Best as I can tell, like all other dogmas, their rules are some blend of urban legends, game of telephone, and calvinball. eg The nephew of the owner, prepping for his missionary work, gravely explained to me that he has to be careful not to immerse himself in open waters (or maybe it was just moving water) past the belt line. Something about being vulnerable to witches or demonic possession or whatever. And it was totally true because his cousin's best friend knew a guy who swam while on mission and then died.
    - nocoolnametom 3y ago
      I'm guessing you've gotten some downvotes for this probably because this is recognized as a pretty bizarre belief, and one most modern Mormons do not follow or aren't even aware of. Since Mormonism almost never repudiates the teachings of their past leadership, it merely stops reinforcing old and odd teachings, you'll always be able to find at least a few members who still know about and hold beliefs that the rest of the membership has either forgotten or have never been taught. The particular belief in question here arises from modern LDS scripture (D&C 61) where God says to a group of early LDS missionaries that "there are many dangers upon the waters." These dangers are from Satan being given power over the waters as the world approaches Armageddon, and while faithful LDS missionaries will be preserved while traveling over any water (canal, lake, sea, etc) they're encouraged not to risk it if their faith is not strong enough. This used to be a pretty common teaching from leadership, but in recent decades it's fallen out of fashion. Missionaries are still forbidden from going swimming at any point during their missions, but usually it's presented as a result of insurance dangers facing unsupervised 18 year olds (which, let's be honest, is an entirely reasonable and accurate concern). For almost every weird or odd belief you've heard that at least some Mormons believe, there are usually a combination of scriptures and old leadership quotes behind it, but the modern teachings have left them behind with the hope that if these odd teachings are ignored they'll go away (which works out pretty well, for the most part).
      - mrkstu 3y ago
        This is mostly an issue of the hierarchal/revelatory nature of the church. If every folk belief held by any Pope or Church Father was held as a controlling 'belief' of the Catholic Church, it'd spin apart instantly via the contradictions. The 'Mormon' church has to deal with the contradiction of near-infallibility of its leaders with their very human frailties and willingness to opine on things without much knowledge. Considering their need to weld together tens of thousands of converts under murder, oppression, and official government endorsement of their extermination, it was understandable they needed to centralize a belief in their leadership in order to survive. Climbing down from that philosophy has been understandably fraught and drawn out.
  - nocoolnametom 3y ago
    The caffeine thing is a long-standing internal debate that arises from: 1. Unclear doctrinal specifics 2. An orthopraxic rather than an orthodoxic culture The first item is that the only doctrine possibly relating to caffeine is a single verse in modern scripture that says "hot drinks are not for the body or belly". Long-standing teaching by leadership has merely narrowed down "hot drinks" to mean tea and coffee. The second item is by far more important in the debate: Mormons are _highly_ orthopraxic, meaning that you're usually free to hold heterodox doctrinal beliefs as long as your public life and behavior reflects the common orthopraxy. Or, to put it simply, the public appearance of righteousness is culturally far more important than internal doctrinal beliefs (this is, ironically enough, not technically doctrinal). The same chapter that defines "hot drinks" (coffee/tea) as not good for the belly defines beer ("barley... for mild drinks") as entirely appropriate, but since the orthopraxic behavior is to be seen as avoiding coffee, tea, hard liquor (which is specifically called out in the same scripture) then avoiding anything above and beyond those is often seen as an increased sign of righteousness. So you'll often have arguments between Mormons who follow the letter of the law and others who follow what they define as the spirit of the law. And since coffee and tea both contain caffeine then many Mormons will avoid caffeine as well. You'll find this same argument about following just the doctrine defined in the open canon versus following behavioral practices above and beyond it in other aspects of Mormon life, such as: not calling members of the church or the church "Mormon," payment of 10% of monthly income (though the scriptures call for 10% of an annual "increase"), women only wearing at most one set of earrings, no dating for youth below the age of 16, men applying to serve missions the instant their 18th birthday arrives (though the window for honorable service is many years wide), no clapping in meetings, no drums or brass in meetings, and so on for many other cultural practices. This is, as you can probably recognize from some of the items in that list, in no way a phenomenon isolated to the LDS religion, but it does inform the inevitable debate you'll hear if you ever bring up caffeine in a group of Mormons.
    - freedomben 3y ago
      For others gaining a new vocabulary word today: > Orthopraxic v. orthodoxic: In the study of religion, orthopraxy is correct conduct, both ethical and liturgical, as opposed to faith or grace.[1][2][3] Orthopraxy is in contrast with orthodoxy, which emphasizes correct belief. The word is a neoclassical compound—ὀρθοπραξία (orthopraxia) meaning 'right practice'. [1] [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthopraxy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthopraxy
  - irrational 3y ago
    It's not caffeine. It's coffee, black/green tea, and alcohol. Soda has caffeine and is seen as okay. Think of it as Jewish Kosher or Muslim Halal.
- tyingq 3y ago
  Probably something also about similar views about a moral high ground.
- ttpphd 3y ago
  3. Mormons are overwhelmingly white and come from a cultural background of conservative patriarchal Christian whiteness which comports with the historical and present culture of the FBI.
  - dragonwriter 3y ago
    You left out “heirarchical authoritarian”, but, yeah, that.
  - dauertewigkeit 3y ago
    You're using Christian way too much to describe Mormons. I am pretty sure most Christians aren't going to see Mormonism as a plus.
    - haradion 3y ago
      By mainstream Christian standards, the doctrine is, quite frankly, "heretical", but members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (the primary branch of "Mormonism") very much consider themselves Christian, have values that align strongly with many other Christian denominations, place Christ at the center of their doctrine, etc. In my opinion, culturally, we're a lot more Christian than the typical perception would suggest. That being said, we've got our own offshoot groups that we don't consider "really Mormon", so I get where people are coming from on that question.
    - mrguyorama 3y ago
      They shouldn't be considered christians, but in the voting booth, they vote for the same thing that evangelicals do.
  - seanw444 3y ago
    Which is funny because most Mormons I know dislike the FBI specifically because their actions as of late are directly in opposition to their beliefs.
    - KRAKRISMOTT 3y ago
- pavon 3y ago
  I would add that their culture is a good match. They are Lawful Good through and through. Historically their church youth programs were tightly integrated with the Boy Scouts (until a recent split as BSA became more inclusive), and are raised to have a strong sense of duty to their church, country and community.
  - whalesalad 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - intimidated 3y ago
      I am extremely not Mormon, but we don't have any reason to believe Mormons are more likely to be sexual abusers than Jews, Muslims, or Hindus. It's probably more politically safe to claim Mormons are more likely to be sexual abusers, but I wouldn't feel any less safe leaving my children with a Mormon family than with a Jewish family, a Muslim family, or a Hindu family.
      - gibolt 3y ago
        Pretty sure you could just say any family...
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
  - WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
    > Historically their church youth programs were tightly integrated with the Boy Scouts In western states, yes. In the east it ran from supportive to apathetic to passive-aggressively hostile. In some councils, the split wasn't all bad for the BSA.
    - jstarfish 3y ago
      Other denominations are now starting to follow suit and declining to renew charters or lease space to the BSA.
- jimmar 3y ago
  3rd mentioned in the was a willingness to serve. Having grown up Mormon, I'd add a 4th that wasn't mentioned in the article: deference to authority. The Mormon church is a very hierarchal organization. Orders go from the top down. People lower on the ladder should not ever contradict their leaders. When a Mormon leader asks you to do something, you expected to comply. I imagine that this mindset would make you fit in well in the FBI, at least in the lower and middle layers of the organization.
juujian 3y ago
Sounds potentially problematic, having a lot of members of one group, any group, in your intelligence service? But then again, i can imagine the type of person who would be willing to apply to an intelligence service in the first place...
- jjtheblunt 3y ago
  > i can imagine the type of person who would be willing to apply to an intelligence service in the first place... What?
- opportune 3y ago
  Most Mormons I’ve met are so wholesome and kind that I think they would legitimately choose to work in the FBI or IC to make the world a better place. If we’re gonna have one group overrepresented I can’t think of a better one, and I disagree with basically all of their beliefs. For one the IC basically excludes edgier and free spirited types, or those with baggage, by design. It also excludes financially motivated people and academic types - in practice we’ve already ruled out most of the urban upper middle/upper classes and most poorer people. Among the remainder you have to pick those with college education that are willing to live in or around cities. And then among those, people willing to commit to a long career, believe in the cause, maintain discretion, unlikely to fall off the wagon… and without any kind of concerning overt bigotry. Besides people who enlisted directly out of high school I feel like Mormons are the only major group who would consistently fit the bill.
  - dragonwriter 3y ago
    > Most Mormons I’ve met are so wholesome and kind that I think they would legitimately choose to work in the FBI or IC to make the world a better place. Yes, they would, and very often they'd be so convinced of their righteousness that they’d use their power as government agents to run over anything that thet saw as standing in the way of their vision of a better place. If you look at the history of abuses by the FBI, almost none of them were venal and corrupt, they mostly were just putting a vision of a path to a better world ahead of things like due process. This is exactly the kind of thing motivating the saying “The road to Hell is paved with good intentions. ”
dgrin91 3y ago
(2015)
mkl95 3y ago
Sounds a bit like the "cultural fit" narrative that has been used by some FAANG companies to prefer people from certain ethnicities
- GreedClarifies 3y ago
  Do you have any idea what you are talking about?
  - 7speter 3y ago
    As someone who is seemingly not from a preferred racial demo, I know exactly what this person is talking about.
    - GreedClarifies 3y ago
      Really? Tech was predominantly white (as was the US) in the 70s, by the 90s Asians and Indians were over represented. I'll submit this is prima facie evidence that tech was (and is to some degree) highly meritocratic, and more so than any other large portion of the economy.
      - tcmart14 3y ago
        I wouldn't waste me breath. These claims tend to come from people who are, "I didn't get hired because I am a white male." I've been on tons of interviews and have gotten tons of rejection and never once has a company told me its because I didn't fit their demographic or was a white male. But these people will claim that. In reality, they just think they have sunshine coming out of their asses and need an excuse to justify their hurt ego.
        DrThunder 3y ago
        Whether or not it's true I don't know, but your claim that it doesn't exist because they didn't tell you is ignorant. IF they were doing this they're not going to explicitly tell you they are because it's a massive lawsuit waiting to happen. What they are doing though is putting in laws, regulations, and culture pressure that incentivize them not to hire white males, or at least hire less of them. That's objectively true.
boomboomsubban 3y ago
Isn't there some memo from Scientology saying that they had goals to get members into such bureaucratic positions and recruit members in those positions? I can get why the FBI may be drawn to Mormons, but I also wouldn't be surprised is the Mormons actively encouraged their members to get jobs with the FBI.
- 7speter 3y ago
  Especially since Mormons had a lot of friction with the US government in the past.
- camjohnson26 3y ago
  Operation Snow White, run by Scientology, was one of the largest government infiltrations in US History. I don’t see any evidence that the same thing is happening with the Mormon church though. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Snow_White https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Snow_White
- mrkstu 3y ago
  Nah. Zero messaging internally encouraging government work. I'd say the high level of education, pro-work, pro-patriotism, high morality emphasis on top of the extra level of foreign language competency makes it a natural fit. I was surprised to find out recently my Dad had applied to the CIA back in the 60s- but on reflection not too surprised. The more the 60s and 70s went counter-culture, the more that the Utah/AZ/Idaho axis of Mormons went from their traditional pro-Democratic post FDR base to a pro-government pro-Republican, anti-Communist direction. He ended up going into business instead, but if his background check hadn't gone on so long, he'd likely would have taken a .gov offer if it'd come before his corporate offer.
5350-uiop-1130 3y ago
three factors: > "Mormon people often have strong foreign language skills, from missions overseas" > "a relatively easy time getting security clearances, given their abstention from drugs and alcohol" > "and a willingness to serve" It's quite a strange religion, not to be offensive. I always get approached by them at the mall when i'm in the US...I always think to myself the kind of person is drawn to this belief around the character of Joseph Smith.
- yarg 3y ago
  What religion isn't strange? Seriously, the only reason you think that the religions that you're used to aren't weird as shit is overexposure.
  - Ekaros 3y ago
    Christianity has lot of weird stuff. When you really start to think it over from roots and consider certain aspects. But members are just told to follow and ignore those aspects. Not to mention the stuff that is simply ignored if you would slightly expand it.
    - yarg 3y ago
      Believe and do not question - questioning's the devil's work.
      - cjmcqueen 3y ago
        As a practicing Christian and member of the church of Jesus Christ I was taught, and teach regularly, to question everything. Questions are how we build understanding and faith. The last chapter of the Book of Mormon is an admonishment to reflect on what is written, to think about, ask questions and to pray about it. Moroni 10 https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/moro/10?lang=eng https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/mo... What I think too many very intelligent people forget is that faith and knowledge are two different things. But, if you want to start a project, a business, or a relationship... You need both. One feeds the other. I choose never to undermine the faith of others because it is those strong beliefs and acts of faith that created light bulbs, assembly lines, search engines, massive online book stores and put us in the moon again and again. Faith is pretty powerful stuff Hebrews 11 https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/nt/heb/11?lang=eng https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/nt/heb/...
geocrasher 3y ago
I spoke with some LDS youngsters who came to my door some time back. They're friendly. I learned that they do not like being referred to as "Mormon" but instead prefer "LDS". For them, being called Mormon is derogatory.
- seanw444 3y ago
  This is a new phenomenon, too. It was only a few years ago that there was a church-wide semiannual congregation (known as General Conference) where the leadership announced that it was bad to be referred to as "Mormon". The reasoning is: Mormon is a character in their scripture (The Book of Mormon), but he is not the main figurehead for the church, so referring to them as though he is, is a misrepresentation.
  - geocrasher 3y ago
    The reasoning is: Mormon is a character in their scripture (The Book of Mormon), but he is not the main figurehead for the church, so referring to them as though he is, is a misrepresentation. That's the explanation I was given as well. Thanks for clarifying and thank you all for the explanations.
  - didgetmaster 3y ago
    Mormon was an ancient prophet who compiled and abridged the record which he called the Book of Mormon. When the church started publishing the book, people started calling members of the church, 'Mormons'. It was largely used as a derogatory term by those who did not like the church, but members eventually embraced it. Kind of like the term 'Yankee' was a derogatory term for Americans that the British came up with. Eventually, Americans embraced it and even named a baseball team after it. The church and its members do not think the term is bad, but think it can distract those who think the church is not Christian so it is trying to de-emphasize it.
- freedomben 3y ago
  Youngsters are probably not the best source for this info as they're too young to remember that 20 years ago "Mormon" was perfectly fine, and in fact a lot of Mormons called (and still call) themselves "Mormon." Some time back the leadership of the Church decided that Mormon was offensive for some reason and made it so. But then "LDS" is now out of date as well! The leadership has decided that they don't want to be called "LDS" anymore. They even dumped the wonderfully succinct "lds.org" domain for "churchofjesuschrist.org." Now they want you to use the full name of the Church (at least the first time referenced in the convo), which is "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." So for example, if you want to refer to a person you would have previously called "Mormon" or "LDS," you should instead use "member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." There is a minor relief though. On subsequent references you can shorten it to "Church of Jesus Christ" or "the restored Church of Jesus Christ."[1] Personally I like the (still silly long) acronym COJCOLDS. But realistically very few Mormons are going to offended if you call them "LDS." [1]: https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/style-guide https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/style-guide
cashsterling 3y ago
I worked with an ex-Mormon guy for about a year or so who was an ex-CIA contractor. He said there are a lot Mormons in the CIA as well and they called it the "Mormon Mafia" (mostly in a joking manner). So when he'd meet new people within the CIA who were Mormon they would sometimes ask him, "Mormon Mafia?", if they suspected he was Mormon. This guy did his mission in Russia and speaks Russian... so there you go. He had some crazy stories about doing mission work in Russia. He was almost killed several times.
- robinsord 3y ago
  [dead]
- abtinf 3y ago
  Note that “mission” in the parent comment likely refers the practice of certain Christian sects that send out evangelists to proselytize in another geographic area. It probably is not referring to CIA operations. (Posting this because there is a dead peer comment that seems to have misunderstood).
  - blendergeek 3y ago
    The LDS church specifically has a practice where many young LDS members go on a "mission" for two years. In fact it is so common that almost every LDS member would understand the phrase "[a specific person]'s mission" to refer to that two year mission for proselytizing.
    - throwaway60607 3y ago
      Yeah but this site probably isn't composed of mostly Mormons
  - endtime 3y ago
    This is how I interpreted the OP as well. Just replying to supply the word "missionary" in case it helps anyone make the connection.
  - 3y ago
darksaints 3y ago
As a former mormon with most of my family in intelligence or military, the Security Clearance reason may be valid but I call bullshit on the language skills reason. Most mormon missionaries will never learn enough of their respective mission languages to actually have normal conversations, as 99% of their conversations revolve around religion. And the FBI doesn’t really have an emphasis on language anyway, that is more of a CIA thing (which also recruits a lot of Mormons). It’s funny how all of the glowing traits that are claimed about Mormons that are cited as reasons to hire them always come from the perspective of other Mormons. That being said, this is the first one that I’ve read that has slightly touched on one of the major reasons: Mormon nepotism. The Mormon Mafia talk in this article may sound like a joke, but it is very much a real phenomenon. If you hire a single Mormon, and that person achieves a position of influence in your company, you will wake up some day to the realization that there are now hundreds of Mormons...and they all had a say in hiring each other, and they all give glowing reviews about each other, and they all end up in the same organizations, and they all get promoted in lockstep with each other. The Mormon Mafia isn't an FBI thing, it is a real phenomenon that happens in a lot of different places. I got a great job out of college primarily out of Mormon nepotism. I got fired after leaving Mormonism for the same reason. A good way to prevent this from happening is, not surprisingly, a general anti-nepotism practice: don’t allow people interview candidates from their alma mater. 99% of these asshole Mormons that try to create Mormon Mafias within companies went to BYU, and 99% of the people they want to hire at the exclusion of others also went to BYU. It works surprisingly well for non-Mormon nepotism as well...never underestimate an HBS grad's tendency to think other HBS grads are the bee's knees. Don’t let them have a say in their hiring.
- seanw444 3y ago
  Best counter to workplace discrimination: more workplace discrimination. Get an authority involved if you have proof.
  - alex_sf 3y ago
    It's not really discrimination to say "you have a potential bias on this particular candidate, you shouldn't be involved in the decision".
bell-cot 3y ago
Even 150 years ago, Mormons had quite the reputation for both fighting for ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_Battalion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_Battalion ) and fighting against ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_War ) the U.S. Army.
- elcritch 3y ago
  Visiting some of the historical museums I found there was a, brief, time when the Mormons tried making their own script and empire. I believe it was called "Deseret". Later they tried to get it accepted as a state. Interestingly, I've found a lot of parallels between early Islam and early Mormonism. Both of their leaders had similar tendencies and both were evicted from their original location where they claimed their new Zion. Though Mohammed was more successful in retaking Mecca whilst the Mormons were forced out of Missouri (1). In no specific order: - Prophet's with dubious histories prior to their revelation - Both given new revelations from an angel - Both claim a that the Christians or Jews had corrupted the original gospels - Focus on political power early on - Polygamy prominent among early leaders - No alcohol - Strong focus on certain forms of "purity" 1: https://www.sos.mo.gov/archives/resources/mormon.asp https://www.sos.mo.gov/archives/resources/mormon.asp
  - ss108 3y ago
    Not really sure how Mohammed can be said to have a "dubious" history. If you don't want to believe the traditional accounts, that's fair, but late antiquity was not a golden age of objective recorded history lol, so there isn't much better info to go off otherwise. I would refer people to r/AcademicQuran on issues of early Islamic history. I can't say whether Smith had a "dubious" history, but I'm not inclined to take this view because people think it's ok to bigoted and dismissive of the Church of LDS, and I think it's unfair. Also polygamy was part of pre-Islamic Arabia, whereas it was contrary to custom and law in the context in which the LDS Church developed. Comparison on this point is superficial.
    - lvass 3y ago
      [flagged]
deleted 3y ago
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ldehaan 3y ago
[dead]
snapetom 3y ago
Reminds me of this Reddit AMA+Answer from an ex-CIA officer. https://old.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/a8c03j/i_am_andrew_bustamante_a_former_covert_cia/ec9x4ip/ https://old.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/a8c03j/i_am_andrew_bu... Don't know how it went over in the Mormon community, but us Ags loved it.
- tomcam 3y ago
  What is an Ag?
  - 8jef 3y ago
    Agnostics?
  - lolinder 3y ago
    Presumably a graduate from Texas A&M (the other organization identified).
    - snapetom 3y ago
      Yes. Texas A&M Aggies.
      - jacurtis 3y ago
        Utah State's mascot (The college) is also the Aggies. Seems like it is probably more likely that.
        lolinder 3y ago
        You're replying to the person who used the term "Ags" upthread.
        lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3y ago
        That mistake is actually kinda funny given the post this comment thread is in. I suspect that's why they would assume the reference was to USU's mascot. It makes sense if one happens to miss the details of who commented what.
FlyingBears 3y ago
Descendants of survivors of the trek to Utah carry their genes. If there is someone to be scared of it is survivors, for you know not what they did to survive.
alexpotato 3y ago
> Mormon people often have strong foreign language skills, from missions overseas I remember reading that the Mormon language school that prepares people for their overseas mission trips has a lot of Special Forces personnel from the military attending as well. The reason: the number of languages taught at the Mormon school exceeds those taught at the military language schools. This includes dialects spoken by a tiny proportion of the global population but that population is strategically useful to some agenda of US foreign policy.
- cjmcqueen 3y ago
  Not exactly correct. The Mission Training Center has only missionaries of the church attend for language training. But, Special Forces and many other agencies have studied and patterned their own language training off of the MTC model.
ytreyrty 3y ago
random anecdote, but the first company i worked at, most of the team/org was mormon. and to make things even weirder, the boss was also the local "bishop" so he was everybody's boss in both the secular and spiritual worlds. not sure how common this sort of thing is, but i definitely felt at a disadvantage compared to the mormon people on the team.
- gavinhoward 3y ago
  I'm a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It's pretty common, but if you felt at a disadvantage compared to the members, that bishop/boss was not doing his job properly. We're not supposed to favor members, even if only slightly. Unfortunately, it's natural to do so because there is an implicit assumption that there are shared values. I don't know how to fix that.
gavinhoward 3y ago
I've seen a lot of good things in this thread, but also a lot of innocent misconceptions. I'm a practicing and believing member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. AMA, I guess, to see if I can clear up some misconceptions. I do have some non-mainstream beliefs for a member of the Church, but I am quite orthopraxic as far as members go. (TIL what orthopraxy means; thank you to the two commenters who defined it!) Just so you know, my stance is that anyone can do what they wish so long as it doesn't hurt anyone else, but don't force me to say that what you're doing is ideal. Yes, I said "ideal," not "okay." That's where my beliefs are not quite mainstream.
- rendx 3y ago
  "my stance is that anyone can do what they wish so long as it doesn't hurt anyone else" sounds straightforward at first, but: how does one define "hurt"? Honest and curious question. I would expect a lot of people to share that general stance, but differ widely on what it means to hurt or get hurt, and when to stay clear and when to intervene even if it's not you that gets hurt, or when some action merely has the potential to hurt.
  - gavinhoward 3y ago
    That's a good point. I don't know how others define it, and I'm not sure I could pin down my own feelings about it. Here's a starting point: don't push something on someone without helping them understand the consequences. As an example, when I become a parent, I want my child to be baptized a member of the Church. But I sure will not allow that child to be baptized until he/she understands the covenants that come along with baptism, understands what must be done to keep the covenants, and wants to be baptized. It would be a great hurt if I did not do otherwise. I feel like many parents who are members hurt their children by pushing them into baptism without properly teaching them why and letting the child make their own decision.
- joenot443 3y ago
  I grew up a practicing Catholic but have always been especially fascinated with other Christian denominations. Forgive my elementary question. Wikipedia frames the Mormon belief with Joseph Smith as being seen at a similar level to Elijah or Moses. Prophetic, but still human and imperfect. Would you say that’s roughly accurate?
vulcan01 3y ago
> Often, after a long career in the FBI, agents will join the Latter-day Saints’ Security Department Why does a church have a security department, especially one that staffs so many people? The article states that most of them work desk jobs, which probably means they aren't running physical security at individual churches, so what kind of threats does the church overall face?
- red-iron-pine 3y ago
  Great way to hide money -- be a church. They also lobby hard, and track their missionaries closely. I'll give them a pass on some of the missionaries work, they often go to places that can be dicey.
- elliekelly 3y ago
  I would imagine it’s less to police or protect the church locations and more to “police” the actions of their parishioners.
  - deadscottfalcon 3y ago
    Unrelated, I once did a salesforce buildout for a well-known church. You would be surprised at the amount of fields on the “church member management” page. Large text fields for input on “what did this person say about the church that was negative?” Investigation and credibility tracking… I was shocked.
    - cjmcqueen 3y ago
      The LDS Church doesn't have a record keeping tool like this and it is intentional. We believe in repentance and records like that can often get in the way of the repentance process
  - cjmcqueen 3y ago
    No it's not. The church owns a lot of property and has many high profile leaders. Church security does not do anything close to police work on/for parishioners.
P_I_Staker 3y ago
I get the sense that there are a lot of Mormans on HN.
WaitWaitWha 3y ago
Did I miss the percent of Mormons in the FBI mentioned? I see the 2% of US population identified, but nowhere how many are in the FBI. According the Pew Research Center[0] 1.6% of the US population is Mormon in 2014. The FBI employs approximately 35,000 people [1]. Looking at differently [2] - take the population of the US; subtract all who are not citizens, under-age, over-age, non-computer users, have no bachelors; subtract all who cannot secure a clearance, subtract all who lack the specific skills required for the role, subtract all who are not willing to take a mediocre salary, and, and, and... What do you have left? There might be a correlation (we do not know, as we do not have a percent of Mormons in the FBI), but the factors identified are also readily present in several other groups. I could have written an article that the US DoD hires disproportionately color-blind people. We should investigate! (I can back this up with real numbers too ;)) [0] Pew Research Center: Religious Lanscape Study https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/religious-landscape-study/ https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/religious-landscape-stu... [1] FBI: How many people work for the FBI? https://www.fbi.gov/about/faqs/how-many-people-work-for-the-fbi https://www.fbi.gov/about/faqs/how-many-people-work-for-the-... [2] US Census https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/US/PST045221 https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/US/PST045221 References moves an article from tabloid toward journalism.

80 points by churchill 3y ago

TLDR: 1. Strong foreign language skills from overseas missions. 2. It's easier getting them security clearances since they don't use drugs or alcohol.

pelagicAustral 3y ago
This reminds me of one of my favorite quotes from Burn After Reading. From Osborne Cox when being dismissed from his job as an analyst: > I have a drinking problem? Fuck you, Peck! You're a Mormon! Next to you, we all have a drinking problem!
sidewndr46 3y ago
Lots of people think this means "don't smoke" or something like that. From the members I have conversed with, they are forbidden from using caffeine.
- lolinder 3y ago
  Coffee and black/green tea are typically considered to be prohibited (I know active members who drink green tea and still participate fully), but caffeine in general isn't banned. One of the apostles even acknowledged drinking a whole lot of diet coke to help while learning to use a computer[0]: > It took a great deal of time, repetition, patience; no small amount of hope and faith; lots of reassurance from my wife; and many liters of a diet soda that shall remain nameless. [0] https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2016/10/o-how-great-the-plan-of-our-god?lang=eng https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference...
  - sidewndr46 3y ago
    I'm not a member, just going off what they told me. From what I understand the actual edicts (maybe it's called something) else aren't really supposed to be published or talked about. So I've only talked to ex-mormons about this.
    - lolinder 3y ago
      I am a member, and every actual commandment is definitely public record. Even the temple covenants are (as of recently) public record[0], and those used to be the ones that were held in the highest level of secrecy. There are a whole lot of people who have their own interpretations of the commandments, and that coupled with our history of secrecy surrounding the temple could definitely give rise to the idea that it's difficult to know what all the requirements are, but it's all online and available to everyone at this point. Here's the relevant information about the health code[1]: > The Lord revealed in the Word of Wisdom that the following substances are harmful: > Alcoholic drinks (see Doctrine and Covenants 89:5–7). > Tobacco (see Doctrine and Covenants 89:8). > Tea and coffee (see Doctrine and Covenants 89:9; latter-day prophets have taught that the term “hot drinks,” as written in this verse, refers to tea and coffee). [0] https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/temples/what-is-temple-endowment?lang=eng https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/temples/what-is-temple-e... [1] https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/word-of-wisdom https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topi...
      - csdvrx 3y ago
        I've checked the website and it's easy to get lost clicking around like on tvtropes.org > I am a member, and every actual commandment is definitely public record. Even the temple covenants are (as of recently) public record[0], and those used to be the ones that were held in the highest level of secrecy. Great! So here's a very legit question: is there a PDF version that I could read linearly to get a good idea of the whole doctrine? (I mean something like the Talmud) I'm just curious and want to learn.
        lolinder 3y ago
        It's obviously very difficult to compress any religion's doctrines down into an easily digestible form, but the pamphlets used by the missionaries do a pretty good job of summarizing the most important points [0]. Beyond that, the Gospel Topics[1] section is, as you found, a bit of a rabbit hole, but contains the church's official stance on any topic where they've taken a stance. If you can't find it there, it's likely that there isn't an official consensus. [0] https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/handbooks-and-callings/mission-callings/teaching-pamphlets https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/handbooks-and-call... [1] https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topi...
- seanw444 3y ago
  It depends on the family. My girlfriend wasn't allowed to drink any caffeine when she was a kid. Caffeine was normal in my family though. Coffee is pretty universally frowned upon (I don't get it either). Apparently Mtn Dew > Coffee as it pertains to health. They base their dietary standard on the "Word of Wisdom". Source: grew up Mormon, and still have a close relationship with my Mormon family.
- specialist 3y ago
  Opinions differ. Best as I can tell, like all other dogmas, their rules are some blend of urban legends, game of telephone, and calvinball. eg The nephew of the owner, prepping for his missionary work, gravely explained to me that he has to be careful not to immerse himself in open waters (or maybe it was just moving water) past the belt line. Something about being vulnerable to witches or demonic possession or whatever. And it was totally true because his cousin's best friend knew a guy who swam while on mission and then died.
  - nocoolnametom 3y ago
    I'm guessing you've gotten some downvotes for this probably because this is recognized as a pretty bizarre belief, and one most modern Mormons do not follow or aren't even aware of. Since Mormonism almost never repudiates the teachings of their past leadership, it merely stops reinforcing old and odd teachings, you'll always be able to find at least a few members who still know about and hold beliefs that the rest of the membership has either forgotten or have never been taught. The particular belief in question here arises from modern LDS scripture (D&C 61) where God says to a group of early LDS missionaries that "there are many dangers upon the waters." These dangers are from Satan being given power over the waters as the world approaches Armageddon, and while faithful LDS missionaries will be preserved while traveling over any water (canal, lake, sea, etc) they're encouraged not to risk it if their faith is not strong enough. This used to be a pretty common teaching from leadership, but in recent decades it's fallen out of fashion. Missionaries are still forbidden from going swimming at any point during their missions, but usually it's presented as a result of insurance dangers facing unsupervised 18 year olds (which, let's be honest, is an entirely reasonable and accurate concern). For almost every weird or odd belief you've heard that at least some Mormons believe, there are usually a combination of scriptures and old leadership quotes behind it, but the modern teachings have left them behind with the hope that if these odd teachings are ignored they'll go away (which works out pretty well, for the most part).
    - mrkstu 3y ago
      This is mostly an issue of the hierarchal/revelatory nature of the church. If every folk belief held by any Pope or Church Father was held as a controlling 'belief' of the Catholic Church, it'd spin apart instantly via the contradictions. The 'Mormon' church has to deal with the contradiction of near-infallibility of its leaders with their very human frailties and willingness to opine on things without much knowledge. Considering their need to weld together tens of thousands of converts under murder, oppression, and official government endorsement of their extermination, it was understandable they needed to centralize a belief in their leadership in order to survive. Climbing down from that philosophy has been understandably fraught and drawn out.
- nocoolnametom 3y ago
  The caffeine thing is a long-standing internal debate that arises from: 1. Unclear doctrinal specifics 2. An orthopraxic rather than an orthodoxic culture The first item is that the only doctrine possibly relating to caffeine is a single verse in modern scripture that says "hot drinks are not for the body or belly". Long-standing teaching by leadership has merely narrowed down "hot drinks" to mean tea and coffee. The second item is by far more important in the debate: Mormons are _highly_ orthopraxic, meaning that you're usually free to hold heterodox doctrinal beliefs as long as your public life and behavior reflects the common orthopraxy. Or, to put it simply, the public appearance of righteousness is culturally far more important than internal doctrinal beliefs (this is, ironically enough, not technically doctrinal). The same chapter that defines "hot drinks" (coffee/tea) as not good for the belly defines beer ("barley... for mild drinks") as entirely appropriate, but since the orthopraxic behavior is to be seen as avoiding coffee, tea, hard liquor (which is specifically called out in the same scripture) then avoiding anything above and beyond those is often seen as an increased sign of righteousness. So you'll often have arguments between Mormons who follow the letter of the law and others who follow what they define as the spirit of the law. And since coffee and tea both contain caffeine then many Mormons will avoid caffeine as well. You'll find this same argument about following just the doctrine defined in the open canon versus following behavioral practices above and beyond it in other aspects of Mormon life, such as: not calling members of the church or the church "Mormon," payment of 10% of monthly income (though the scriptures call for 10% of an annual "increase"), women only wearing at most one set of earrings, no dating for youth below the age of 16, men applying to serve missions the instant their 18th birthday arrives (though the window for honorable service is many years wide), no clapping in meetings, no drums or brass in meetings, and so on for many other cultural practices. This is, as you can probably recognize from some of the items in that list, in no way a phenomenon isolated to the LDS religion, but it does inform the inevitable debate you'll hear if you ever bring up caffeine in a group of Mormons.
  - freedomben 3y ago
    For others gaining a new vocabulary word today: > Orthopraxic v. orthodoxic: In the study of religion, orthopraxy is correct conduct, both ethical and liturgical, as opposed to faith or grace.[1][2][3] Orthopraxy is in contrast with orthodoxy, which emphasizes correct belief. The word is a neoclassical compound—ὀρθοπραξία (orthopraxia) meaning 'right practice'. [1] [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthopraxy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthopraxy
- irrational 3y ago
  It's not caffeine. It's coffee, black/green tea, and alcohol. Soda has caffeine and is seen as okay. Think of it as Jewish Kosher or Muslim Halal.
tyingq 3y ago
Probably something also about similar views about a moral high ground.
ttpphd 3y ago
3. Mormons are overwhelmingly white and come from a cultural background of conservative patriarchal Christian whiteness which comports with the historical and present culture of the FBI.
- dragonwriter 3y ago
  You left out “heirarchical authoritarian”, but, yeah, that.
- dauertewigkeit 3y ago
  You're using Christian way too much to describe Mormons. I am pretty sure most Christians aren't going to see Mormonism as a plus.
  - haradion 3y ago
    By mainstream Christian standards, the doctrine is, quite frankly, "heretical", but members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (the primary branch of "Mormonism") very much consider themselves Christian, have values that align strongly with many other Christian denominations, place Christ at the center of their doctrine, etc. In my opinion, culturally, we're a lot more Christian than the typical perception would suggest. That being said, we've got our own offshoot groups that we don't consider "really Mormon", so I get where people are coming from on that question.
  - mrguyorama 3y ago
    They shouldn't be considered christians, but in the voting booth, they vote for the same thing that evangelicals do.
- seanw444 3y ago
  Which is funny because most Mormons I know dislike the FBI specifically because their actions as of late are directly in opposition to their beliefs.
  - KRAKRISMOTT 3y ago
pavon 3y ago
I would add that their culture is a good match. They are Lawful Good through and through. Historically their church youth programs were tightly integrated with the Boy Scouts (until a recent split as BSA became more inclusive), and are raised to have a strong sense of duty to their church, country and community.
- whalesalad 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - intimidated 3y ago
    I am extremely not Mormon, but we don't have any reason to believe Mormons are more likely to be sexual abusers than Jews, Muslims, or Hindus. It's probably more politically safe to claim Mormons are more likely to be sexual abusers, but I wouldn't feel any less safe leaving my children with a Mormon family than with a Jewish family, a Muslim family, or a Hindu family.
    - gibolt 3y ago
      Pretty sure you could just say any family...
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
- WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
  > Historically their church youth programs were tightly integrated with the Boy Scouts In western states, yes. In the east it ran from supportive to apathetic to passive-aggressively hostile. In some councils, the split wasn't all bad for the BSA.
  - jstarfish 3y ago
    Other denominations are now starting to follow suit and declining to renew charters or lease space to the BSA.
jimmar 3y ago
3rd mentioned in the was a willingness to serve. Having grown up Mormon, I'd add a 4th that wasn't mentioned in the article: deference to authority. The Mormon church is a very hierarchal organization. Orders go from the top down. People lower on the ladder should not ever contradict their leaders. When a Mormon leader asks you to do something, you expected to comply. I imagine that this mindset would make you fit in well in the FBI, at least in the lower and middle layers of the organization.

juujian 3y ago

Sounds potentially problematic, having a lot of members of one group, any group, in your intelligence service? But then again, i can imagine the type of person who would be willing to apply to an intelligence service in the first place...

jjtheblunt 3y ago
> i can imagine the type of person who would be willing to apply to an intelligence service in the first place... What?
opportune 3y ago
Most Mormons I’ve met are so wholesome and kind that I think they would legitimately choose to work in the FBI or IC to make the world a better place. If we’re gonna have one group overrepresented I can’t think of a better one, and I disagree with basically all of their beliefs. For one the IC basically excludes edgier and free spirited types, or those with baggage, by design. It also excludes financially motivated people and academic types - in practice we’ve already ruled out most of the urban upper middle/upper classes and most poorer people. Among the remainder you have to pick those with college education that are willing to live in or around cities. And then among those, people willing to commit to a long career, believe in the cause, maintain discretion, unlikely to fall off the wagon… and without any kind of concerning overt bigotry. Besides people who enlisted directly out of high school I feel like Mormons are the only major group who would consistently fit the bill.
- dragonwriter 3y ago
  > Most Mormons I’ve met are so wholesome and kind that I think they would legitimately choose to work in the FBI or IC to make the world a better place. Yes, they would, and very often they'd be so convinced of their righteousness that they’d use their power as government agents to run over anything that thet saw as standing in the way of their vision of a better place. If you look at the history of abuses by the FBI, almost none of them were venal and corrupt, they mostly were just putting a vision of a path to a better world ahead of things like due process. This is exactly the kind of thing motivating the saying “The road to Hell is paved with good intentions. ”

dgrin91 3y ago

(2015)

mkl95 3y ago

Sounds a bit like the "cultural fit" narrative that has been used by some FAANG companies to prefer people from certain ethnicities

GreedClarifies 3y ago
Do you have any idea what you are talking about?
- 7speter 3y ago
  As someone who is seemingly not from a preferred racial demo, I know exactly what this person is talking about.
  - GreedClarifies 3y ago
    Really? Tech was predominantly white (as was the US) in the 70s, by the 90s Asians and Indians were over represented. I'll submit this is prima facie evidence that tech was (and is to some degree) highly meritocratic, and more so than any other large portion of the economy.
    - tcmart14 3y ago
      I wouldn't waste me breath. These claims tend to come from people who are, "I didn't get hired because I am a white male." I've been on tons of interviews and have gotten tons of rejection and never once has a company told me its because I didn't fit their demographic or was a white male. But these people will claim that. In reality, they just think they have sunshine coming out of their asses and need an excuse to justify their hurt ego.
      - DrThunder 3y ago
        Whether or not it's true I don't know, but your claim that it doesn't exist because they didn't tell you is ignorant. IF they were doing this they're not going to explicitly tell you they are because it's a massive lawsuit waiting to happen. What they are doing though is putting in laws, regulations, and culture pressure that incentivize them not to hire white males, or at least hire less of them. That's objectively true.

boomboomsubban 3y ago

Isn't there some memo from Scientology saying that they had goals to get members into such bureaucratic positions and recruit members in those positions? I can get why the FBI may be drawn to Mormons, but I also wouldn't be surprised is the Mormons actively encouraged their members to get jobs with the FBI.

7speter 3y ago
Especially since Mormons had a lot of friction with the US government in the past.
camjohnson26 3y ago
Operation Snow White, run by Scientology, was one of the largest government infiltrations in US History. I don’t see any evidence that the same thing is happening with the Mormon church though. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Snow_White https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Snow_White
mrkstu 3y ago
Nah. Zero messaging internally encouraging government work. I'd say the high level of education, pro-work, pro-patriotism, high morality emphasis on top of the extra level of foreign language competency makes it a natural fit. I was surprised to find out recently my Dad had applied to the CIA back in the 60s- but on reflection not too surprised. The more the 60s and 70s went counter-culture, the more that the Utah/AZ/Idaho axis of Mormons went from their traditional pro-Democratic post FDR base to a pro-government pro-Republican, anti-Communist direction. He ended up going into business instead, but if his background check hadn't gone on so long, he'd likely would have taken a .gov offer if it'd come before his corporate offer.

5350-uiop-1130 3y ago

three factors: > "Mormon people often have strong foreign language skills, from missions overseas" > "a relatively easy time getting security clearances, given their abstention from drugs and alcohol" > "and a willingness to serve" It's quite a strange religion, not to be offensive. I always get approached by them at the mall when i'm in the US...I always think to myself the kind of person is drawn to this belief around the character of Joseph Smith.

yarg 3y ago
What religion isn't strange? Seriously, the only reason you think that the religions that you're used to aren't weird as shit is overexposure.
- Ekaros 3y ago
  Christianity has lot of weird stuff. When you really start to think it over from roots and consider certain aspects. But members are just told to follow and ignore those aspects. Not to mention the stuff that is simply ignored if you would slightly expand it.
  - yarg 3y ago
    Believe and do not question - questioning's the devil's work.
    - cjmcqueen 3y ago
      As a practicing Christian and member of the church of Jesus Christ I was taught, and teach regularly, to question everything. Questions are how we build understanding and faith. The last chapter of the Book of Mormon is an admonishment to reflect on what is written, to think about, ask questions and to pray about it. Moroni 10 https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/moro/10?lang=eng https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/mo... What I think too many very intelligent people forget is that faith and knowledge are two different things. But, if you want to start a project, a business, or a relationship... You need both. One feeds the other. I choose never to undermine the faith of others because it is those strong beliefs and acts of faith that created light bulbs, assembly lines, search engines, massive online book stores and put us in the moon again and again. Faith is pretty powerful stuff Hebrews 11 https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/nt/heb/11?lang=eng https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/nt/heb/...

geocrasher 3y ago

I spoke with some LDS youngsters who came to my door some time back. They're friendly. I learned that they do not like being referred to as "Mormon" but instead prefer "LDS". For them, being called Mormon is derogatory.

seanw444 3y ago
This is a new phenomenon, too. It was only a few years ago that there was a church-wide semiannual congregation (known as General Conference) where the leadership announced that it was bad to be referred to as "Mormon". The reasoning is: Mormon is a character in their scripture (The Book of Mormon), but he is not the main figurehead for the church, so referring to them as though he is, is a misrepresentation.
- geocrasher 3y ago
  The reasoning is: Mormon is a character in their scripture (The Book of Mormon), but he is not the main figurehead for the church, so referring to them as though he is, is a misrepresentation. That's the explanation I was given as well. Thanks for clarifying and thank you all for the explanations.
- didgetmaster 3y ago
  Mormon was an ancient prophet who compiled and abridged the record which he called the Book of Mormon. When the church started publishing the book, people started calling members of the church, 'Mormons'. It was largely used as a derogatory term by those who did not like the church, but members eventually embraced it. Kind of like the term 'Yankee' was a derogatory term for Americans that the British came up with. Eventually, Americans embraced it and even named a baseball team after it. The church and its members do not think the term is bad, but think it can distract those who think the church is not Christian so it is trying to de-emphasize it.
freedomben 3y ago
Youngsters are probably not the best source for this info as they're too young to remember that 20 years ago "Mormon" was perfectly fine, and in fact a lot of Mormons called (and still call) themselves "Mormon." Some time back the leadership of the Church decided that Mormon was offensive for some reason and made it so. But then "LDS" is now out of date as well! The leadership has decided that they don't want to be called "LDS" anymore. They even dumped the wonderfully succinct "lds.org" domain for "churchofjesuschrist.org." Now they want you to use the full name of the Church (at least the first time referenced in the convo), which is "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." So for example, if you want to refer to a person you would have previously called "Mormon" or "LDS," you should instead use "member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." There is a minor relief though. On subsequent references you can shorten it to "Church of Jesus Christ" or "the restored Church of Jesus Christ."[1] Personally I like the (still silly long) acronym COJCOLDS. But realistically very few Mormons are going to offended if you call them "LDS." [1]: https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/style-guide https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/style-guide

cashsterling 3y ago

I worked with an ex-Mormon guy for about a year or so who was an ex-CIA contractor. He said there are a lot Mormons in the CIA as well and they called it the "Mormon Mafia" (mostly in a joking manner). So when he'd meet new people within the CIA who were Mormon they would sometimes ask him, "Mormon Mafia?", if they suspected he was Mormon. This guy did his mission in Russia and speaks Russian... so there you go. He had some crazy stories about doing mission work in Russia. He was almost killed several times.

robinsord 3y ago
[dead]
abtinf 3y ago
Note that “mission” in the parent comment likely refers the practice of certain Christian sects that send out evangelists to proselytize in another geographic area. It probably is not referring to CIA operations. (Posting this because there is a dead peer comment that seems to have misunderstood).
- blendergeek 3y ago
  The LDS church specifically has a practice where many young LDS members go on a "mission" for two years. In fact it is so common that almost every LDS member would understand the phrase "[a specific person]'s mission" to refer to that two year mission for proselytizing.
  - throwaway60607 3y ago
    Yeah but this site probably isn't composed of mostly Mormons
- endtime 3y ago
  This is how I interpreted the OP as well. Just replying to supply the word "missionary" in case it helps anyone make the connection.
- 3y ago

darksaints 3y ago

As a former mormon with most of my family in intelligence or military, the Security Clearance reason may be valid but I call bullshit on the language skills reason. Most mormon missionaries will never learn enough of their respective mission languages to actually have normal conversations, as 99% of their conversations revolve around religion. And the FBI doesn’t really have an emphasis on language anyway, that is more of a CIA thing (which also recruits a lot of Mormons). It’s funny how all of the glowing traits that are claimed about Mormons that are cited as reasons to hire them always come from the perspective of other Mormons. That being said, this is the first one that I’ve read that has slightly touched on one of the major reasons: Mormon nepotism. The Mormon Mafia talk in this article may sound like a joke, but it is very much a real phenomenon. If you hire a single Mormon, and that person achieves a position of influence in your company, you will wake up some day to the realization that there are now hundreds of Mormons...and they all had a say in hiring each other, and they all give glowing reviews about each other, and they all end up in the same organizations, and they all get promoted in lockstep with each other. The Mormon Mafia isn't an FBI thing, it is a real phenomenon that happens in a lot of different places. I got a great job out of college primarily out of Mormon nepotism. I got fired after leaving Mormonism for the same reason. A good way to prevent this from happening is, not surprisingly, a general anti-nepotism practice: don’t allow people interview candidates from their alma mater. 99% of these asshole Mormons that try to create Mormon Mafias within companies went to BYU, and 99% of the people they want to hire at the exclusion of others also went to BYU. It works surprisingly well for non-Mormon nepotism as well...never underestimate an HBS grad's tendency to think other HBS grads are the bee's knees. Don’t let them have a say in their hiring.

seanw444 3y ago
Best counter to workplace discrimination: more workplace discrimination. Get an authority involved if you have proof.
- alex_sf 3y ago
  It's not really discrimination to say "you have a potential bias on this particular candidate, you shouldn't be involved in the decision".

bell-cot 3y ago

Even 150 years ago, Mormons had quite the reputation for both fighting for ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_Battalion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_Battalion ) and fighting against ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_War ) the U.S. Army.

elcritch 3y ago
Visiting some of the historical museums I found there was a, brief, time when the Mormons tried making their own script and empire. I believe it was called "Deseret". Later they tried to get it accepted as a state. Interestingly, I've found a lot of parallels between early Islam and early Mormonism. Both of their leaders had similar tendencies and both were evicted from their original location where they claimed their new Zion. Though Mohammed was more successful in retaking Mecca whilst the Mormons were forced out of Missouri (1). In no specific order: - Prophet's with dubious histories prior to their revelation - Both given new revelations from an angel - Both claim a that the Christians or Jews had corrupted the original gospels - Focus on political power early on - Polygamy prominent among early leaders - No alcohol - Strong focus on certain forms of "purity" 1: https://www.sos.mo.gov/archives/resources/mormon.asp https://www.sos.mo.gov/archives/resources/mormon.asp
- ss108 3y ago
  Not really sure how Mohammed can be said to have a "dubious" history. If you don't want to believe the traditional accounts, that's fair, but late antiquity was not a golden age of objective recorded history lol, so there isn't much better info to go off otherwise. I would refer people to r/AcademicQuran on issues of early Islamic history. I can't say whether Smith had a "dubious" history, but I'm not inclined to take this view because people think it's ok to bigoted and dismissive of the Church of LDS, and I think it's unfair. Also polygamy was part of pre-Islamic Arabia, whereas it was contrary to custom and law in the context in which the LDS Church developed. Comparison on this point is superficial.
  - lvass 3y ago
    [flagged]

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ldehaan 3y ago

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snapetom 3y ago

Reminds me of this Reddit AMA+Answer from an ex-CIA officer. https://old.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/a8c03j/i_am_andrew_bustamante_a_former_covert_cia/ec9x4ip/ https://old.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/a8c03j/i_am_andrew_bu... Don't know how it went over in the Mormon community, but us Ags loved it.

tomcam 3y ago
What is an Ag?
- 8jef 3y ago
  Agnostics?
- lolinder 3y ago
  Presumably a graduate from Texas A&M (the other organization identified).
  - snapetom 3y ago
    Yes. Texas A&M Aggies.
    - jacurtis 3y ago
      Utah State's mascot (The college) is also the Aggies. Seems like it is probably more likely that.
      - lolinder 3y ago
        You're replying to the person who used the term "Ags" upthread.
        lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3y ago
        That mistake is actually kinda funny given the post this comment thread is in. I suspect that's why they would assume the reference was to USU's mascot. It makes sense if one happens to miss the details of who commented what.

FlyingBears 3y ago

Descendants of survivors of the trek to Utah carry their genes. If there is someone to be scared of it is survivors, for you know not what they did to survive.

alexpotato 3y ago

> Mormon people often have strong foreign language skills, from missions overseas I remember reading that the Mormon language school that prepares people for their overseas mission trips has a lot of Special Forces personnel from the military attending as well. The reason: the number of languages taught at the Mormon school exceeds those taught at the military language schools. This includes dialects spoken by a tiny proportion of the global population but that population is strategically useful to some agenda of US foreign policy.

cjmcqueen 3y ago
Not exactly correct. The Mission Training Center has only missionaries of the church attend for language training. But, Special Forces and many other agencies have studied and patterned their own language training off of the MTC model.

ytreyrty 3y ago

random anecdote, but the first company i worked at, most of the team/org was mormon. and to make things even weirder, the boss was also the local "bishop" so he was everybody's boss in both the secular and spiritual worlds. not sure how common this sort of thing is, but i definitely felt at a disadvantage compared to the mormon people on the team.

gavinhoward 3y ago
I'm a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It's pretty common, but if you felt at a disadvantage compared to the members, that bishop/boss was not doing his job properly. We're not supposed to favor members, even if only slightly. Unfortunately, it's natural to do so because there is an implicit assumption that there are shared values. I don't know how to fix that.

gavinhoward 3y ago

I've seen a lot of good things in this thread, but also a lot of innocent misconceptions. I'm a practicing and believing member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. AMA, I guess, to see if I can clear up some misconceptions. I do have some non-mainstream beliefs for a member of the Church, but I am quite orthopraxic as far as members go. (TIL what orthopraxy means; thank you to the two commenters who defined it!) Just so you know, my stance is that anyone can do what they wish so long as it doesn't hurt anyone else, but don't force me to say that what you're doing is ideal. Yes, I said "ideal," not "okay." That's where my beliefs are not quite mainstream.

rendx 3y ago
"my stance is that anyone can do what they wish so long as it doesn't hurt anyone else" sounds straightforward at first, but: how does one define "hurt"? Honest and curious question. I would expect a lot of people to share that general stance, but differ widely on what it means to hurt or get hurt, and when to stay clear and when to intervene even if it's not you that gets hurt, or when some action merely has the potential to hurt.
- gavinhoward 3y ago
  That's a good point. I don't know how others define it, and I'm not sure I could pin down my own feelings about it. Here's a starting point: don't push something on someone without helping them understand the consequences. As an example, when I become a parent, I want my child to be baptized a member of the Church. But I sure will not allow that child to be baptized until he/she understands the covenants that come along with baptism, understands what must be done to keep the covenants, and wants to be baptized. It would be a great hurt if I did not do otherwise. I feel like many parents who are members hurt their children by pushing them into baptism without properly teaching them why and letting the child make their own decision.
joenot443 3y ago
I grew up a practicing Catholic but have always been especially fascinated with other Christian denominations. Forgive my elementary question. Wikipedia frames the Mormon belief with Joseph Smith as being seen at a similar level to Elijah or Moses. Prophetic, but still human and imperfect. Would you say that’s roughly accurate?

vulcan01 3y ago

> Often, after a long career in the FBI, agents will join the Latter-day Saints’ Security Department Why does a church have a security department, especially one that staffs so many people? The article states that most of them work desk jobs, which probably means they aren't running physical security at individual churches, so what kind of threats does the church overall face?

red-iron-pine 3y ago
Great way to hide money -- be a church. They also lobby hard, and track their missionaries closely. I'll give them a pass on some of the missionaries work, they often go to places that can be dicey.
elliekelly 3y ago
I would imagine it’s less to police or protect the church locations and more to “police” the actions of their parishioners.
- deadscottfalcon 3y ago
  Unrelated, I once did a salesforce buildout for a well-known church. You would be surprised at the amount of fields on the “church member management” page. Large text fields for input on “what did this person say about the church that was negative?” Investigation and credibility tracking… I was shocked.
  - cjmcqueen 3y ago
    The LDS Church doesn't have a record keeping tool like this and it is intentional. We believe in repentance and records like that can often get in the way of the repentance process
- cjmcqueen 3y ago
  No it's not. The church owns a lot of property and has many high profile leaders. Church security does not do anything close to police work on/for parishioners.

P_I_Staker 3y ago

I get the sense that there are a lot of Mormans on HN.

WaitWaitWha 3y ago

Did I miss the percent of Mormons in the FBI mentioned? I see the 2% of US population identified, but nowhere how many are in the FBI. According the Pew Research Center[0] 1.6% of the US population is Mormon in 2014. The FBI employs approximately 35,000 people [1]. Looking at differently [2] - take the population of the US; subtract all who are not citizens, under-age, over-age, non-computer users, have no bachelors; subtract all who cannot secure a clearance, subtract all who lack the specific skills required for the role, subtract all who are not willing to take a mediocre salary, and, and, and... What do you have left? There might be a correlation (we do not know, as we do not have a percent of Mormons in the FBI), but the factors identified are also readily present in several other groups. I could have written an article that the US DoD hires disproportionately color-blind people. We should investigate! (I can back this up with real numbers too ;)) [0] Pew Research Center: Religious Lanscape Study https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/religious-landscape-study/ https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/religious-landscape-stu... [1] FBI: How many people work for the FBI? https://www.fbi.gov/about/faqs/how-many-people-work-for-the-fbi https://www.fbi.gov/about/faqs/how-many-people-work-for-the-... [2] US Census https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/US/PST045221 https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/US/PST045221 References moves an article from tabloid toward journalism.