4 ms·

Tipping should be illegal but short of that it should NOT be a component of wages factored into minimum wage like this. The proliferation of square and other PO

by wand3r 3y ago

Tipping should be illegal but short of that it should NOT be a component of wages factored into minimum wage like this. The proliferation of square and other POS systems has normalized tipping in new sectors and significantly increased the percentage with presets like 18.5, 20 and 25 as default. If Waffle House can't hire employees at a price point the market demands then it shouldnt operate. The restaurant model makes no sense when customers subsidize the wages of employees directly.

zahma 3y ago
I have seen the proliferation of these POSs, but I never assumed they meant total tips have gone up. How do you know that total tips have gone up across the board?
- ghaff 3y ago
  I don't have any data but it seems logical to assume that shoving a default 18% tip in people's faces on a POS device means that some people tip when they otherwise wouldn't or would just drop some change in a jar.
beepbooptheory 3y ago
20% is pretty baseline right? Those presets make sense to me. And while it is indeed factored into minimum wage like this, don't you mean to say: "Not* tipping should be illegal"? Like if you agree that this is all just an allocation strategy on the business side, and really it should be factored in from the beginning, it shouldn't be that much of an affront to just follow it through and give them a good tip. Not to deny this is an imperfect state of affairs, but if the complaint amounts to simply having an extra social responsibility to make sure the people who serve you get paid well, I don't see why we as individuals need to feel angry or cheated.
- wycy 3y ago
  15% was the baseline for a long time. It's inched its way up to 20%.
  - ghaff 3y ago
    In fact, it used to be something like 15% before taxes as a rule of thumb. It's ooched up to something like 18% minimum (on POS terminals) inclusive of taxes and whatever additional fees are added in some jurisdictions.
  - josephd79 3y ago
    Like how long ago we talking about? 20% minimum is what I've used for 30 years.
    - akvadrako 3y ago
      If that's true it must have been regional. It was average 15% 20 years ago in New Hampshire.
  - alphabettsy 3y ago
    I remember it being 10% when I was a kid, 15-20% if you’re generous.
brokenkebaby 3y ago
Customers pay restaurant employee wages anyway, so I'm not sure I understand what model "makes no sense" exactly. Tipping is a way to create a direct feedback between customer, and server, and as such it makes a lot of sense. I guess in States it went a bit farther than that because cultural norm makes you feel obliged to tip, but as long as you still can choose how many - it works. Now, if POS doesn't let you choose arbitrary amount it's a problem with POS/cashless society/banks, and not with tipping.
- Ekaros 3y ago
  Is such direct feedback loop needed? In other places we simply stop buying product or using certain business if possible and things sort itself out. Or we could give feedback by internet forms or something else.
  - brokenkebaby 3y ago
    For me personally it's a nice way to build, and manage relations with people serving me food in cafes I frequent. Works for me.
- zihotki 3y ago
  Do you also tip your bank, hospital, public services, or governmental agencies? They also provide you a service.
  - brokenkebaby 3y ago
    No, and?
- cosmotic 3y ago
  The jury is out on the efficacy of the feedback loop.
- drewcoo 3y ago
  > Tipping is a way to create a direct feedback between customer, and server I'd much rather send feedback to the managers. They control the entire experience. Are there any restaurants that pay management $2/hr and let the customers tip them up to living wage levels?
brodouevencode 3y ago
> If Waffle House can't hire employees at a price point the market demands then it shouldnt operate. If WH can't hire employees at a price point the market demands it *won't* operate - there will be no employees. People are willing to work at those rates so there will be a pool of employees available.
- komali2 3y ago
  > If WH can't hire employees at a price point the market demands it won't operate - there will be no employees. Another way to say this argument is "the USA economy requires a service sector of people inches from poverty in bad working conditions, to survive." If a country has to stand on the blood of its working class to survive, that country probably shouldn't exist. > People are willing to work at those rates so there will be a pool of employees available. The alternative is homelessness. This isn't ethical. Other countries have fast food restaurants with workers that have housing and healthcare. If the American government and corporate strategists can't organize its economy in a way to deliver this life to its citizens, it should be replaced, no? Unless you think "might makes right?"
  - brodouevencode 3y ago
    > If a country has to stand on the blood of its working class to survive, that country probably shouldn't exist. You speak like zealot. I can't take any of this seriously.
    - komali2 3y ago
      > I can't take any of this seriously. At your peril, I guess. What do you think the end result is of prices of rent and food going up, price of goods going up, and wages not moving?
      - brodouevencode 3y ago
        My peril? What does that mean? Markets work the way they work and will respond accordingly. The outcome may not be ideal but humans aren't always the most rational or predictable.

by wand3r 3y ago

zahma 3y ago

I have seen the proliferation of these POSs, but I never assumed they meant total tips have gone up. How do you know that total tips have gone up across the board?

ghaff 3y ago
I don't have any data but it seems logical to assume that shoving a default 18% tip in people's faces on a POS device means that some people tip when they otherwise wouldn't or would just drop some change in a jar.

beepbooptheory 3y ago

20% is pretty baseline right? Those presets make sense to me. And while it is indeed factored into minimum wage like this, don't you mean to say: "Not* tipping should be illegal"? Like if you agree that this is all just an allocation strategy on the business side, and really it should be factored in from the beginning, it shouldn't be that much of an affront to just follow it through and give them a good tip. Not to deny this is an imperfect state of affairs, but if the complaint amounts to simply having an extra social responsibility to make sure the people who serve you get paid well, I don't see why we as individuals need to feel angry or cheated.

wycy 3y ago
15% was the baseline for a long time. It's inched its way up to 20%.
- ghaff 3y ago
  In fact, it used to be something like 15% before taxes as a rule of thumb. It's ooched up to something like 18% minimum (on POS terminals) inclusive of taxes and whatever additional fees are added in some jurisdictions.
- josephd79 3y ago
  Like how long ago we talking about? 20% minimum is what I've used for 30 years.
  - akvadrako 3y ago
    If that's true it must have been regional. It was average 15% 20 years ago in New Hampshire.
- alphabettsy 3y ago
  I remember it being 10% when I was a kid, 15-20% if you’re generous.

brokenkebaby 3y ago

Customers pay restaurant employee wages anyway, so I'm not sure I understand what model "makes no sense" exactly. Tipping is a way to create a direct feedback between customer, and server, and as such it makes a lot of sense. I guess in States it went a bit farther than that because cultural norm makes you feel obliged to tip, but as long as you still can choose how many - it works. Now, if POS doesn't let you choose arbitrary amount it's a problem with POS/cashless society/banks, and not with tipping.

Ekaros 3y ago
Is such direct feedback loop needed? In other places we simply stop buying product or using certain business if possible and things sort itself out. Or we could give feedback by internet forms or something else.
- brokenkebaby 3y ago
  For me personally it's a nice way to build, and manage relations with people serving me food in cafes I frequent. Works for me.
zihotki 3y ago
Do you also tip your bank, hospital, public services, or governmental agencies? They also provide you a service.
- brokenkebaby 3y ago
  No, and?
cosmotic 3y ago
The jury is out on the efficacy of the feedback loop.
drewcoo 3y ago
> Tipping is a way to create a direct feedback between customer, and server I'd much rather send feedback to the managers. They control the entire experience. Are there any restaurants that pay management $2/hr and let the customers tip them up to living wage levels?

brodouevencode 3y ago

> If Waffle House can't hire employees at a price point the market demands then it shouldnt operate. If WH can't hire employees at a price point the market demands it *won't* operate - there will be no employees. People are willing to work at those rates so there will be a pool of employees available.

komali2 3y ago
> If WH can't hire employees at a price point the market demands it won't operate - there will be no employees. Another way to say this argument is "the USA economy requires a service sector of people inches from poverty in bad working conditions, to survive." If a country has to stand on the blood of its working class to survive, that country probably shouldn't exist. > People are willing to work at those rates so there will be a pool of employees available. The alternative is homelessness. This isn't ethical. Other countries have fast food restaurants with workers that have housing and healthcare. If the American government and corporate strategists can't organize its economy in a way to deliver this life to its citizens, it should be replaced, no? Unless you think "might makes right?"
- brodouevencode 3y ago
  > If a country has to stand on the blood of its working class to survive, that country probably shouldn't exist. You speak like zealot. I can't take any of this seriously.
  - komali2 3y ago
    > I can't take any of this seriously. At your peril, I guess. What do you think the end result is of prices of rent and food going up, price of goods going up, and wages not moving?
    - brodouevencode 3y ago
      My peril? What does that mean? Markets work the way they work and will respond accordingly. The outcome may not be ideal but humans aren't always the most rational or predictable.