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I am basically that employee in several ways. I know about wasteful cloud spend that I do nothing about. My last comment on HN actually was asking if anyone co

I am basically that employee in several ways. I know about wasteful cloud spend that I do nothing about. My last comment on HN actually was asking if anyone could give me a reason to report that cloud waste. The best arguments were for the sake of the environment and to build credibility with co-workers to make it easier to jump ship. Nothing from the company at all. I can't say I deliberately ship bugs, but I don't care that much about eliminating them. If I were not worried about legal issues, I would investigate whether we had a bug bounty program and give them to a friend to collect and split the prize. And yes, I use the same password at my multiple full time jobs. If you knew my email, you could find that password in a password leak on the internet. So my password has already leaked. It is out there, tied to my name. > This group of people seem to have been like that at some point in time, and then turned to “misbehaving” in this manner. I was like that. I like creating stuff. I like building great experiences. But working as a corporate employee is an extra painful way to do it in many cases. I enjoy finding weird bugs and figuring out the fixes. But everything from the Scrum to the layoffs to the executives trying to drag you in for corporate team building events to the non-technicals who don't have a clue what you do makes it not worth it to engage at work. The project you care about will be carelessly tossed away in a reorg. You will be judged based on output report from Jira, which is actually an incentive to ship as many bugs as possible because that increases the number of Scrum points you have done. Is that really what you want for your life? Sounds miserable to me. I want out. And I do all those things to get out as soon as possible. So what is the endgame? Spend time working on cool things myself while doing all I can to minimize time work takes from my life. Cut every corner to save effort, from the passwords to the utter eradication of any speck of initiative. Work multiple full time jobs to accelerate progress to retirement and slash output at those jobs to make way to even more jobs, further accelerating my workforce exit.

kiratp 3y ago
For nothing else than the sake of “life is about the journey”, please consider changing your job. It is absolutely possible to align paid employment with fulfillment.
- pierat 3y ago
  I've heard people bandy that trusim my whole life. And I find that for like 99% of us, it's just false. Or, you do find your 'dream job', and pays $17/hr no benefits, cause it's a non-profit. (Aside: I've never dreamed of work. Not once. I like keeping the surplus of my labor.) What I want to do is to build new stuff, and greenfield. Basically, it'd be a R&D variant, but most of those jobs don't even exist. It's a cost center, and the C levels equate it to corporate gambling. There's working at a national lab, or NASA, or similar. And most of those are clearance jobs that nobody, save a few, will ever see come to light of day. I'll just choose a mundane, paying well job, and on the sly automate. Ideally, I'll get good money and have 10-15h work a week, and regained time. Basically doubles my effective wage.
gammabetadelta 3y ago
we all play games if your game let's you do this without guilt then good on you but, maybe there's a better route than escape... turn work into something worth doing
tsukikage 3y ago
If your employer doesn't reward its employees for doing things that benefit the bottom line, it's perhaps time to look for another employer.
- geraldwhen 3y ago
  You’re replying to someone who claims to be working multiple full time roles. What employee rewards effort with multiples of your total comp? None, to my knowledge.
- Gigachad 3y ago
  Or maybe the company has identified that their bottom line would be improved more by working on other things rather than the relatively small cloud waste.
DougN7 3y ago
I’m hanging onto this post for the next time I see people on their high horse about integrity among engineers. The fact is, some people have it and some don’t, regardless of job. This makes me sad. Economically it makes sense, but it’s a sign of the sickness in our modern society. Everyone looking out for themselves first without much thought to the community around them. I say this having been burned by employees like this (that did maybe, maybe, an hour’s worth of remote work per day). Maybe it all boils down to “this is why we can’t have nice things”.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- gryn 3y ago
  > Everyone looking out for themselves yes, including/especially employers. maybe (or not) these employee started doing this after been burned by their employers before. the very same that talk about the community, greater good, and being in it together but suddenly change speech when they're on the benefiting side. I've been on both side of the equation so I understand. I also have acquaintances that were too, they used to behave the same way as mentioned in the article but once they had their own company started talking the same way you do, suddenly what was acceptable for them to do is unimaginable and unacceptable behavior for other people to do. that society should not have such things. not because they changed their opinions but because their incentives are what changed, so if they go back to their previous position so would their attitude. at the end of the day, the reason people work is not because they want to, it's because they have to in order to get what they want. wanting to have employees that go above and beyond, are the most productive, the most knowledgeable, most skilled, and accept the least pay is what best for you when you're the employer. but when you play in the other camp it's the reverse: the best job is the one that demand the least out of you for the most pay. the payoff functions for the different actors roles are the not same, trying to appeal to a sense of shame, duty or merit is just a way for one actor to hijack another's perception of the game for their own benefit.
  - DougN7 3y ago
    Totally agree with almost everything you say. But there are lines both sides should not cross. For employers it’s exploitation (don’t expect unpaid work) and for employees it’s theft (don’t take pay for no work). If we can’t agree on that then we’re headed for a break down in society.
eternalban 3y ago
Work Attitudes and Work Organization in the Soviet Union (date unknown - ? 1985) [re-formatted] "Over the past two decades there is abundant evidence of Soviet concerns with the problems of job dissatisfaction and poor work morale. The evidence appears in a score of sociological studies of work attitudes and in the more "popular" periodical literature on labor problems. The kind of work discontent which is apparent, however, does not appear to be potentially "explosive" in nature. It manifests itself chiefly in - indifferent job performance, - poor work discipline, and - high rates of job instability. Job dissatisfaction is not confined to any one sector of the work force, but the discontent of relatively highly educated young workers in routine, low skilled jobs has been particularly troublesome. Continuing problems of poor work morale and lackadaisical job performance have elicited Soviet interest in Western experiments in work re-organization (work "enrichment"programs, job rotation, autonomous work teams), and initial steps have been taken to introduce a modest Soviet version of the "humanization of work". The urgency of mobilizing disciplined work commitment becomes all the more pressing as the Soviets enter a period of intensifying labor scarcity, in which economic growth becomes increasingly dependent on the growth of labor productivity rather than on additions to the work force" https://www.ucis.pitt.edu/nceeer/0000-625-7-Yanowitch.pdf https://www.ucis.pitt.edu/nceeer/0000-625-7-Yanowitch.pdf - OP > "Now, I would personally feel shame if I did these things". The Ideal Communist Worker Within a communist society, people are expected to act in the interest of the Communist Party and the majority of society. Specifically, the individual is expected to work and act to promote the betterment of the community. Chairman Mao Zedong elaborates, “At no time and in no circumstances should a Communist place his personal interests first; he should subordinate to the interests of the nation and the masses. Hence selfishness, slacking, corruption, seeking the limelight are most contemptible, while ... working with all one’s energy, whole hearted devotion to public duty, and quiet hard work will command respect.” Hence, communists are expected to work diligently and thoughtfully in order to ensure he or she provides the most benefit to society. As a result, any worker in the computer field is expected to manufacture computer products without the wish for acknowledgment or excessive monetary reward. https://cs.stanford.edu/people/eroberts/cs201/projects/communism-computing-china/workethic.html https://cs.stanford.edu/people/eroberts/cs201/projects/commu... But u/throwawaysleep, at least take heart that scrum sessions (so far) do not entail 'self criticism' sessions.
hsbauauvhabzb 3y ago
Sure would be funny if you were tossed under the bus for blatantly reducing the security of your org by using a previously compromised password. Bug bounty integrity isn’t the only issue that could land you in legal trouble.

kiratp 3y ago

For nothing else than the sake of “life is about the journey”, please consider changing your job. It is absolutely possible to align paid employment with fulfillment.

pierat 3y ago
I've heard people bandy that trusim my whole life. And I find that for like 99% of us, it's just false. Or, you do find your 'dream job', and pays $17/hr no benefits, cause it's a non-profit. (Aside: I've never dreamed of work. Not once. I like keeping the surplus of my labor.) What I want to do is to build new stuff, and greenfield. Basically, it'd be a R&D variant, but most of those jobs don't even exist. It's a cost center, and the C levels equate it to corporate gambling. There's working at a national lab, or NASA, or similar. And most of those are clearance jobs that nobody, save a few, will ever see come to light of day. I'll just choose a mundane, paying well job, and on the sly automate. Ideally, I'll get good money and have 10-15h work a week, and regained time. Basically doubles my effective wage.

gammabetadelta 3y ago

we all play games if your game let's you do this without guilt then good on you but, maybe there's a better route than escape... turn work into something worth doing

tsukikage 3y ago

If your employer doesn't reward its employees for doing things that benefit the bottom line, it's perhaps time to look for another employer.

geraldwhen 3y ago
You’re replying to someone who claims to be working multiple full time roles. What employee rewards effort with multiples of your total comp? None, to my knowledge.
Gigachad 3y ago
Or maybe the company has identified that their bottom line would be improved more by working on other things rather than the relatively small cloud waste.

DougN7 3y ago

I’m hanging onto this post for the next time I see people on their high horse about integrity among engineers. The fact is, some people have it and some don’t, regardless of job. This makes me sad. Economically it makes sense, but it’s a sign of the sickness in our modern society. Everyone looking out for themselves first without much thought to the community around them. I say this having been burned by employees like this (that did maybe, maybe, an hour’s worth of remote work per day). Maybe it all boils down to “this is why we can’t have nice things”.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
gryn 3y ago
> Everyone looking out for themselves yes, including/especially employers. maybe (or not) these employee started doing this after been burned by their employers before. the very same that talk about the community, greater good, and being in it together but suddenly change speech when they're on the benefiting side. I've been on both side of the equation so I understand. I also have acquaintances that were too, they used to behave the same way as mentioned in the article but once they had their own company started talking the same way you do, suddenly what was acceptable for them to do is unimaginable and unacceptable behavior for other people to do. that society should not have such things. not because they changed their opinions but because their incentives are what changed, so if they go back to their previous position so would their attitude. at the end of the day, the reason people work is not because they want to, it's because they have to in order to get what they want. wanting to have employees that go above and beyond, are the most productive, the most knowledgeable, most skilled, and accept the least pay is what best for you when you're the employer. but when you play in the other camp it's the reverse: the best job is the one that demand the least out of you for the most pay. the payoff functions for the different actors roles are the not same, trying to appeal to a sense of shame, duty or merit is just a way for one actor to hijack another's perception of the game for their own benefit.
- DougN7 3y ago
  Totally agree with almost everything you say. But there are lines both sides should not cross. For employers it’s exploitation (don’t expect unpaid work) and for employees it’s theft (don’t take pay for no work). If we can’t agree on that then we’re headed for a break down in society.

eternalban 3y ago

Work Attitudes and Work Organization in the Soviet Union (date unknown - ? 1985) [re-formatted] "Over the past two decades there is abundant evidence of Soviet concerns with the problems of job dissatisfaction and poor work morale. The evidence appears in a score of sociological studies of work attitudes and in the more "popular" periodical literature on labor problems. The kind of work discontent which is apparent, however, does not appear to be potentially "explosive" in nature. It manifests itself chiefly in - indifferent job performance, - poor work discipline, and - high rates of job instability. Job dissatisfaction is not confined to any one sector of the work force, but the discontent of relatively highly educated young workers in routine, low skilled jobs has been particularly troublesome. Continuing problems of poor work morale and lackadaisical job performance have elicited Soviet interest in Western experiments in work re-organization (work "enrichment"programs, job rotation, autonomous work teams), and initial steps have been taken to introduce a modest Soviet version of the "humanization of work". The urgency of mobilizing disciplined work commitment becomes all the more pressing as the Soviets enter a period of intensifying labor scarcity, in which economic growth becomes increasingly dependent on the growth of labor productivity rather than on additions to the work force" https://www.ucis.pitt.edu/nceeer/0000-625-7-Yanowitch.pdf https://www.ucis.pitt.edu/nceeer/0000-625-7-Yanowitch.pdf - OP > "Now, I would personally feel shame if I did these things". The Ideal Communist Worker Within a communist society, people are expected to act in the interest of the Communist Party and the majority of society. Specifically, the individual is expected to work and act to promote the betterment of the community. Chairman Mao Zedong elaborates, “At no time and in no circumstances should a Communist place his personal interests first; he should subordinate to the interests of the nation and the masses. Hence selfishness, slacking, corruption, seeking the limelight are most contemptible, while ... working with all one’s energy, whole hearted devotion to public duty, and quiet hard work will command respect.” Hence, communists are expected to work diligently and thoughtfully in order to ensure he or she provides the most benefit to society. As a result, any worker in the computer field is expected to manufacture computer products without the wish for acknowledgment or excessive monetary reward. https://cs.stanford.edu/people/eroberts/cs201/projects/communism-computing-china/workethic.html https://cs.stanford.edu/people/eroberts/cs201/projects/commu... But u/throwawaysleep, at least take heart that scrum sessions (so far) do not entail 'self criticism' sessions.

hsbauauvhabzb 3y ago

Sure would be funny if you were tossed under the bus for blatantly reducing the security of your org by using a previously compromised password. Bug bounty integrity isn’t the only issue that could land you in legal trouble.