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> What I don't understand is the complete lack of response from countries like Italy and Germany once they found out being spied by an ally. Because they're al

> What I don't understand is the complete lack of response from countries like Italy and Germany once they found out being spied by an ally. Because they're all doing it too. Any attempts at retaliation what have been hypocritical and met with callouts. EDIT: Since this is news to some people who seem to think that the entirety of Europe is on a moral high horse, here's some references. There's little morality in intelligence. Europe spies on its own citizens: https://slate.com/technology/2022/11/europe-spyware-scandal-pegasus-report.html https://slate.com/technology/2022/11/europe-spyware-scandal-... Germany helped the US spy on EU allies: https://www.dw.com/en/parliamentary-report-finds-spying-by-bnd-on-eu-and-nato-governments-until-2013/a-19393213 https://www.dw.com/en/parliamentary-report-finds-spying-by-b... France admits they spied on the US: https://www.france24.com/en/20131024-nsa-france-spying-squarcini-dcri-hollande-ayrault-merkel-usa-obama https://www.france24.com/en/20131024-nsa-france-spying-squar... Germany was found to be spying on the US: https://www.dw.com/en/german-intelligence-spied-on-white-house/a-39365418 https://www.dw.com/en/german-intelligence-spied-on-white-hou... The Dutch helped the US spy on the EU: https://www.dw.com/en/danish-secret-service-helped-us-spy-on-germanys-angela-merkel-report/a-57721901 https://www.dw.com/en/danish-secret-service-helped-us-spy-on...

pastacacioepepe 3y ago
There was in fact a small reaction[0][1] and it's naive to think that the espionage systems and efforts USA and European countries have are in any way comparable. > Because they're all doing it too. Any attempts at retaliation what have been hypocritical and met with callouts. Source? I can tell you already there is none. We have plenty of evidence that the USA is spying Europe and other allies, none of the opposite. .0: https://www.osw.waw.pl/en/publikacje/osw-commentary/2014-01-14/nsa-impact-wiretapping-scandal-german-american-relations https://www.osw.waw.pl/en/publikacje/osw-commentary/2014-01-... .1: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/09/germany-arrest-second-spy-accused-us-cia https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/09/germany-arrest...
- nullityrofl 3y ago
  You mean like Europe's use of Pegasus? https://slate.com/technology/2022/11/europe-spyware-scandal-pegasus-report.html https://slate.com/technology/2022/11/europe-spyware-scandal-...
  - pastacacioepepe 3y ago
    > Multiple European governments are using advanced surveillance tools to spy on their own people As I've already answered you on another comment and as the very first line of the article you shared points out, Pegasus has been used for domestic espionage. The issue at hand is foreign espionage.
    - nullityrofl 3y ago
      Ah, you think that the EU spies on their own citizens but is above spying on allies? Allies not OK, citizens OK? Like how Denmark helped the US spy on the EU? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/31/denmark-helped-us-spy-on-angela-merkel-and-european-allies-report https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/31/denmark-helped... Yes, EU nations are somehow totally incapable of a thing every country is doing. That is naive.
      - pastacacioepepe 3y ago
        > Ah, you think that the EU spies on their own citizens but is above spying on allies? Provide evidence please, but we both know there is none. > Like how Denmark helped the US spy on the EU? Yet another case of the US spying on its allies. Edit: You keep editing your comment so it's hard to properly answer. > Allies not OK, citizens OK? I've already wrote you here[0] that I find both cases despicable, but we're simply talking about US foreign espionage here. .0: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35765353 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35765353
        nullityrofl 3y ago
        > Yet another case of the US spying on its allies. I'm not sure if you're being obtuse or just didn't bother reading. Denmark was complicit in the US spying on Germany, Sweden and Norway. https://www.dw.com/en/danish-secret-service-helped-us-spy-on-germanys-angela-merkel-report/a-57721901 https://www.dw.com/en/danish-secret-service-helped-us-spy-on... France and Germany both have admitted they have spied on the White House. https://www.france24.com/en/20131024-nsa-france-spying-squarcini-dcri-hollande-ayrault-merkel-usa-obama https://www.france24.com/en/20131024-nsa-france-spying-squar... https://www.dw.com/en/german-intelligence-spied-on-white-house/a-39365418 https://www.dw.com/en/german-intelligence-spied-on-white-hou... Germany has been found to helping the US spy on EU allies: https://www.dw.com/en/parliamentary-report-finds-spying-by-bnd-on-eu-and-nato-governments-until-2013/a-19393213 https://www.dw.com/en/parliamentary-report-finds-spying-by-b... This is a childish and naïve stance. Also, I'm not American. You can stop referring to me in the second person.
- judge2020 3y ago
  > Source? I can tell you already there is none. We have plenty of evidence that the USA is spying Europe and other allies, none of the opposite. geopolitics 101? why would any country not have spies and passive surveillance of both enemies and allies that could one day threaten their power/economy?
penneallagricia 3y ago
You keep providing more and more evidence that the US is involved in spying most of its allies. Notice how almost all of these cases are about some 3rd country assisting the US in spying someone else? You are just proving that the US is not behaving like a positive force for the world, which was entirely my point. I never said that European countries are saints. I just fear with good reason a US hegemony given their behavior.
- cscurmudgeon 3y ago
  [flagged]
- shkkmo 3y ago
  > Notice how almost all of these cases are about some 3rd country assisting the US in spying someone else? How is 2/5 "almost all"? The US hegemony is rightfully feared, but only because on their relatively unchecked power, not because of any inherent ethical superiority.
- nullityrofl 3y ago
  You mean 2 of 5 and those 2 still involve the EU spying on it's allies, right? So all 5 examples of the EU spying on its allies a thing that you said there was "no proof whatsoever" of? I never said that the US is or isn't a positive net on the world: I said that spying isn't evidence of your point. Because by your definition no country is positive net on the world.
  - penneallagricia 3y ago
    > I never said that the US is or isn't a positive net on the world: I said that spying isn't evidence of your point. Because by your definition no country is positive net on the world. Spoken like a true devil's advocate. Apparently you have no opinion, you just want to refute mine. The fervor with which you scrambled for evidence to only tangentially counter my argument suggests me otherwise, but oh well. If all you want is evidence that the US is currently not a positive net for the world, you just need to look at the work CIA has done. You won't find anything comparable on any other country. And the fact that every nation has secret services means nothing. It's how powerful those services are and what they are used for. By the way you realize that other countries being bad doesn't make the US any better? If nothing you're helping me prove that NATO altogether is a band of criminals, which I might have to thank you for, afterall.
Aeolun 3y ago
The last article seems to be about the Danish.

pastacacioepepe 3y ago

There was in fact a small reaction[0][1] and it's naive to think that the espionage systems and efforts USA and European countries have are in any way comparable. > Because they're all doing it too. Any attempts at retaliation what have been hypocritical and met with callouts. Source? I can tell you already there is none. We have plenty of evidence that the USA is spying Europe and other allies, none of the opposite. .0: https://www.osw.waw.pl/en/publikacje/osw-commentary/2014-01-14/nsa-impact-wiretapping-scandal-german-american-relations https://www.osw.waw.pl/en/publikacje/osw-commentary/2014-01-... .1: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/09/germany-arrest-second-spy-accused-us-cia https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/09/germany-arrest...

nullityrofl 3y ago
You mean like Europe's use of Pegasus? https://slate.com/technology/2022/11/europe-spyware-scandal-pegasus-report.html https://slate.com/technology/2022/11/europe-spyware-scandal-...
- pastacacioepepe 3y ago
  > Multiple European governments are using advanced surveillance tools to spy on their own people As I've already answered you on another comment and as the very first line of the article you shared points out, Pegasus has been used for domestic espionage. The issue at hand is foreign espionage.
  - nullityrofl 3y ago
    Ah, you think that the EU spies on their own citizens but is above spying on allies? Allies not OK, citizens OK? Like how Denmark helped the US spy on the EU? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/31/denmark-helped-us-spy-on-angela-merkel-and-european-allies-report https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/31/denmark-helped... Yes, EU nations are somehow totally incapable of a thing every country is doing. That is naive.
    - pastacacioepepe 3y ago
      > Ah, you think that the EU spies on their own citizens but is above spying on allies? Provide evidence please, but we both know there is none. > Like how Denmark helped the US spy on the EU? Yet another case of the US spying on its allies. Edit: You keep editing your comment so it's hard to properly answer. > Allies not OK, citizens OK? I've already wrote you here[0] that I find both cases despicable, but we're simply talking about US foreign espionage here. .0: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35765353 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35765353
      - nullityrofl 3y ago
        > Yet another case of the US spying on its allies. I'm not sure if you're being obtuse or just didn't bother reading. Denmark was complicit in the US spying on Germany, Sweden and Norway. https://www.dw.com/en/danish-secret-service-helped-us-spy-on-germanys-angela-merkel-report/a-57721901 https://www.dw.com/en/danish-secret-service-helped-us-spy-on... France and Germany both have admitted they have spied on the White House. https://www.france24.com/en/20131024-nsa-france-spying-squarcini-dcri-hollande-ayrault-merkel-usa-obama https://www.france24.com/en/20131024-nsa-france-spying-squar... https://www.dw.com/en/german-intelligence-spied-on-white-house/a-39365418 https://www.dw.com/en/german-intelligence-spied-on-white-hou... Germany has been found to helping the US spy on EU allies: https://www.dw.com/en/parliamentary-report-finds-spying-by-bnd-on-eu-and-nato-governments-until-2013/a-19393213 https://www.dw.com/en/parliamentary-report-finds-spying-by-b... This is a childish and naïve stance. Also, I'm not American. You can stop referring to me in the second person.
judge2020 3y ago
> Source? I can tell you already there is none. We have plenty of evidence that the USA is spying Europe and other allies, none of the opposite. geopolitics 101? why would any country not have spies and passive surveillance of both enemies and allies that could one day threaten their power/economy?

penneallagricia 3y ago

You keep providing more and more evidence that the US is involved in spying most of its allies. Notice how almost all of these cases are about some 3rd country assisting the US in spying someone else? You are just proving that the US is not behaving like a positive force for the world, which was entirely my point. I never said that European countries are saints. I just fear with good reason a US hegemony given their behavior.

cscurmudgeon 3y ago
[flagged]
shkkmo 3y ago
> Notice how almost all of these cases are about some 3rd country assisting the US in spying someone else? How is 2/5 "almost all"? The US hegemony is rightfully feared, but only because on their relatively unchecked power, not because of any inherent ethical superiority.
nullityrofl 3y ago
You mean 2 of 5 and those 2 still involve the EU spying on it's allies, right? So all 5 examples of the EU spying on its allies a thing that you said there was "no proof whatsoever" of? I never said that the US is or isn't a positive net on the world: I said that spying isn't evidence of your point. Because by your definition no country is positive net on the world.
- penneallagricia 3y ago
  > I never said that the US is or isn't a positive net on the world: I said that spying isn't evidence of your point. Because by your definition no country is positive net on the world. Spoken like a true devil's advocate. Apparently you have no opinion, you just want to refute mine. The fervor with which you scrambled for evidence to only tangentially counter my argument suggests me otherwise, but oh well. If all you want is evidence that the US is currently not a positive net for the world, you just need to look at the work CIA has done. You won't find anything comparable on any other country. And the fact that every nation has secret services means nothing. It's how powerful those services are and what they are used for. By the way you realize that other countries being bad doesn't make the US any better? If nothing you're helping me prove that NATO altogether is a band of criminals, which I might have to thank you for, afterall.

Aeolun 3y ago

The last article seems to be about the Danish.