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As a non-USAer, I strongly disagree. There are probably a handful of other countries watching you right now (in a broad, abstract sense) and the USA is the leas

As a non-USAer, I strongly disagree. There are probably a handful of other countries watching you right now (in a broad, abstract sense) and the USA is the least of our concerns. There is a reason why nothing significant came out of it: every other country knows that this is happening (not exactly but roughly) and they know there are much worse problems to worry about, given other strong international players such as Russia and China. There is no ”surveillance free world” alternative. The USA is a very strong and stable democracy (maybe even the strongest) so I think it’s naive to think that removing them from the board would be a good thing.

penneallagricia 3y ago
This isn't about removing the USA from the board, this is about letting the truth out. That thing we claim to base our democracies upon. Your argument boils down to giving up our supposedly better values in order to defeat the "evil guys". I also refuse to accept that our future is under the hegemony of any single nation. So far the only country we have proof of going for hegemony is the USA. Russia and China are concerned with their borders and it's trivial to verify my assessment Is correct. Just compare military expenses and amount of military bases owned across the world.
- achenet 3y ago
  > Russia and China are concerned with their borders and it's trivial to verify my assessment Is correct. Russia is invading a neighboring country, and from talking to Lithuanians, the Russia people seem rather keen on returning to the "good old days" of the Soviet Empire.
bombolo 3y ago
As a person living in Sweden, it seems that my most immediate concern is USA. They are the ones that can ask the swedish government to make up some BS accusations to arrest me and eventually ship me to USA where I will be tortured.
- ineedasername 3y ago
  Seems like your most immediate concern should be the Swedish government. They’re the ones required to actually agree & implement actions based on the BS accusation.
  - bombolo 3y ago
    So we should focus on the goons and ignore the boss sending them? Makes total sense.
    - ineedasername 3y ago
      It's not either or. But in this situation the Swedish people have a better chance of influencing their own government than the one trying to get it to do what it wants. In this situation the boss is powerless over swedish people if the goons lose their power.
      - bombolo 3y ago
        LOL because they'd call a vote for this right? Except very extreme fringes, every big party will bend over to do whatever USA tells them to do, regardless of what their voting base thinks. See how they are changing the laws so that it's legal to send kurds in turkey to die.
        ineedasername 3y ago
        Kick the big party out of office. If a someone can't hurt you except by getting a someone else to do it, and that person only has the power you give it, deal with that person. I'm not saying it's easy. I'm saying that the statement "my most immediate concern..." is incorrect. What's more likely: 1) demands from Swedish citizens to the USA actually stopping the USA from using Sweden in its geopolitics? Or 2) Demands from Swedish citizens to the government they empower? If it's only the extreme fringes, then maybe most people in Sweden simply don't have much of a problem with it or don't care either way, or have more immediately pressing problems to deal with, or something else. Whatever the reason, if you don't like it then your most immediate problem is dealing with the roadblocks to getting your government to stop doing it. EDIT: Maybe we're just talking past each other. The phrasing "most immediate concern" is something I equate to "the problem I have to deal with first". That's why I see that statement of problematics. If you were able to in some way deal with the USA first without changing Swedish politics at all then some other geopolitical power will quickly fill the power gap afterwards and play the same games.
amrocha 3y ago
Let me guess, you're not from South America or Africa or the middle east or southeast Asia? The US government is the most destructive force in history
- zirgs 3y ago
  The US government prevents my country from being bombed by Russia. Without NATO we would suffer the same fate as Ukraine right now.
  - amrocha 3y ago
    Broken clock right twice a day kinda deal. The US staged a coup in my country and supported a military dictatorship. Historically the US has done way more meddling than peacekeeping.
Aeolun 3y ago
> stable democracy Stable? We had an honest-to-god raid on the capitol just a few years ago. At the very least I’d be a little bit nervous about the prospects of democracy if the organizer of that raid gets re-elected.
- low_tech_love 3y ago
  The raid was almost universally criticized and had 0 long term consequences. Yes it was stupid but a small amount of shaking does not bring down a solid structure. Take a look at what happened to some other countries around the world where similar raids happened: some of them have been stuck in violent meaningless dictatorships for decades. Don't get me wrong; I'm center-left and democrat-aligned, but with all due respect, if you cannot see how your country has an incredible foundation, you are naive and has a shallow understanding of the world.

penneallagricia 3y ago

This isn't about removing the USA from the board, this is about letting the truth out. That thing we claim to base our democracies upon. Your argument boils down to giving up our supposedly better values in order to defeat the "evil guys". I also refuse to accept that our future is under the hegemony of any single nation. So far the only country we have proof of going for hegemony is the USA. Russia and China are concerned with their borders and it's trivial to verify my assessment Is correct. Just compare military expenses and amount of military bases owned across the world.

achenet 3y ago
> Russia and China are concerned with their borders and it's trivial to verify my assessment Is correct. Russia is invading a neighboring country, and from talking to Lithuanians, the Russia people seem rather keen on returning to the "good old days" of the Soviet Empire.

bombolo 3y ago

As a person living in Sweden, it seems that my most immediate concern is USA. They are the ones that can ask the swedish government to make up some BS accusations to arrest me and eventually ship me to USA where I will be tortured.

ineedasername 3y ago
Seems like your most immediate concern should be the Swedish government. They’re the ones required to actually agree & implement actions based on the BS accusation.
- bombolo 3y ago
  So we should focus on the goons and ignore the boss sending them? Makes total sense.
  - ineedasername 3y ago
    It's not either or. But in this situation the Swedish people have a better chance of influencing their own government than the one trying to get it to do what it wants. In this situation the boss is powerless over swedish people if the goons lose their power.
    - bombolo 3y ago
      LOL because they'd call a vote for this right? Except very extreme fringes, every big party will bend over to do whatever USA tells them to do, regardless of what their voting base thinks. See how they are changing the laws so that it's legal to send kurds in turkey to die.
      - ineedasername 3y ago
        Kick the big party out of office. If a someone can't hurt you except by getting a someone else to do it, and that person only has the power you give it, deal with that person. I'm not saying it's easy. I'm saying that the statement "my most immediate concern..." is incorrect. What's more likely: 1) demands from Swedish citizens to the USA actually stopping the USA from using Sweden in its geopolitics? Or 2) Demands from Swedish citizens to the government they empower? If it's only the extreme fringes, then maybe most people in Sweden simply don't have much of a problem with it or don't care either way, or have more immediately pressing problems to deal with, or something else. Whatever the reason, if you don't like it then your most immediate problem is dealing with the roadblocks to getting your government to stop doing it. EDIT: Maybe we're just talking past each other. The phrasing "most immediate concern" is something I equate to "the problem I have to deal with first". That's why I see that statement of problematics. If you were able to in some way deal with the USA first without changing Swedish politics at all then some other geopolitical power will quickly fill the power gap afterwards and play the same games.

amrocha 3y ago

Let me guess, you're not from South America or Africa or the middle east or southeast Asia? The US government is the most destructive force in history

zirgs 3y ago
The US government prevents my country from being bombed by Russia. Without NATO we would suffer the same fate as Ukraine right now.
- amrocha 3y ago
  Broken clock right twice a day kinda deal. The US staged a coup in my country and supported a military dictatorship. Historically the US has done way more meddling than peacekeeping.

Aeolun 3y ago

> stable democracy Stable? We had an honest-to-god raid on the capitol just a few years ago. At the very least I’d be a little bit nervous about the prospects of democracy if the organizer of that raid gets re-elected.

low_tech_love 3y ago
The raid was almost universally criticized and had 0 long term consequences. Yes it was stupid but a small amount of shaking does not bring down a solid structure. Take a look at what happened to some other countries around the world where similar raids happened: some of them have been stuck in violent meaningless dictatorships for decades. Don't get me wrong; I'm center-left and democrat-aligned, but with all due respect, if you cannot see how your country has an incredible foundation, you are naive and has a shallow understanding of the world.