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As a non-USAer I'm so glad he went beyond domestic spying. He showed the world how the USA spied on many of its supposed allies. The scope of the system of espi

As a non-USAer I'm so glad he went beyond domestic spying. He showed the world how the USA spied on many of its supposed allies. The scope of the system of espionage they built is orwellian and just astonishing. If there is one evil force conspiring for global domination that is the NSA and whichever institution they take order from. Thanks again, Snowden. What I don't understand is the complete lack of response from countries like Italy and Germany once they found out being spied by an ally. Imagine what the USA would have done if the roles were reversed.

ako 3y ago
Maybe there was no response because it was expected. Probably all countries spy on all other countries. Especially during the Trump era, it wasn’t clear that USA was still an ally, so I hope other countries prepared for that by increasing their intelligence on the USA, just to avoid inconvenient surprises.
- penneallagricia 3y ago
  This has nothing to do with Trump per se, it's really a bipartisan issue, as the new pentagon leaks just confirmed. I also doubt European countries have the capacity to intercept private calls between top level USA govt officials.
  - zirgs 3y ago
    What makes you think that they don't? They surely would keep that capability secret.
    - penneallagricia 3y ago
      > They surely would keep that capability secret. Like the USA itself couldn't? Strongly doubt, the amount of recent leaks we're just discussing proves me right. No nation could have such an espionage system in place without it ever leaking out in some way.
  - nullityrofl 3y ago
    It's already well known that many EU nations have capabilities like this. The French: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/04/france-electronic-spying-operation-nsa https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/04/france-electro... The Germans: https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/germany-arrests-foreign-intelligence-employee-suspected-spying-russia-2022-12-22/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/germany-arrests-foreign... Lets not forget that most of the EU is wrapped up in the Pegasus spy scandal: https://www.dw.com/en/eu-watergate-the-pegasus-spyware-scandal-keeps-spreading/a-63687981 https://www.dw.com/en/eu-watergate-the-pegasus-spyware-scand... Playing holier than thou with intelligence services is a losing game. There is no holy intelligence service and there is no nation without an intelligence function.
    - pastacacioepepe 3y ago
      These are all examples of EU countries doing domestic, not foreign espionage (which is also despicable, by the way). You can search all you want but there is no evidence or proof whatsoever of EU countries spying USA top government officials. The question here is how can you call yourself an ally in good faith when you spy on your allies?
      - nullityrofl 3y ago
        The fact that it has not been leaked is not proof of the negative. The US had been spying on Europe for 50+ years before Snowden and the US continues to spy on Europe right now without any further leaks -- by your logic that must mean that the US isn't currently spying on the EU, right, or there would be leaks? There's plenty of evidence of the EU spying on allies. I can't tell if your implication is "Europe can't maintain smart enough computer scientists and engineers capable of spying on the US" or "Europe has the moral high ground and doesn't spy on allies". Both are naive.
      - throwrqX 3y ago
        > You can search all you want but there is no evidence or proof whatsoever of EU countries spying USA top government officials. Nonsense. https://www.france24.com/en/20131024-nsa-france-spying-squarcini-dcri-hollande-ayrault-merkel-usa-obama https://www.france24.com/en/20131024-nsa-france-spying-squar... https://www.dw.com/en/german-intelligence-spied-on-white-house/a-39365418 https://www.dw.com/en/german-intelligence-spied-on-white-hou...
kelipso 3y ago
The US has been the sole superpower for more than 3 decades now. Its relationship to its allies are more like relationships with vassals, see geopolitical interactions with European countries, Japan, South Korea.
- vasco 3y ago
  I'd say at least since WWII. Admittedly we wouldn't be here without the US coming in and saving us from Germany.
- somedude895 3y ago
  Those relationships are mutually beneficial. Germany has been able to underspend on its military for decades because of US protection. Obviously the US is going to want to know what the German government is up to in regards to, say, Russia.
low_tech_love 3y ago
As a non-USAer, I strongly disagree. There are probably a handful of other countries watching you right now (in a broad, abstract sense) and the USA is the least of our concerns. There is a reason why nothing significant came out of it: every other country knows that this is happening (not exactly but roughly) and they know there are much worse problems to worry about, given other strong international players such as Russia and China. There is no ”surveillance free world” alternative. The USA is a very strong and stable democracy (maybe even the strongest) so I think it’s naive to think that removing them from the board would be a good thing.
- penneallagricia 3y ago
  This isn't about removing the USA from the board, this is about letting the truth out. That thing we claim to base our democracies upon. Your argument boils down to giving up our supposedly better values in order to defeat the "evil guys". I also refuse to accept that our future is under the hegemony of any single nation. So far the only country we have proof of going for hegemony is the USA. Russia and China are concerned with their borders and it's trivial to verify my assessment Is correct. Just compare military expenses and amount of military bases owned across the world.
  - achenet 3y ago
    > Russia and China are concerned with their borders and it's trivial to verify my assessment Is correct. Russia is invading a neighboring country, and from talking to Lithuanians, the Russia people seem rather keen on returning to the "good old days" of the Soviet Empire.
- bombolo 3y ago
  As a person living in Sweden, it seems that my most immediate concern is USA. They are the ones that can ask the swedish government to make up some BS accusations to arrest me and eventually ship me to USA where I will be tortured.
  - ineedasername 3y ago
killjoywashere 3y ago
Meh, countries know they spy on each other. Sometimes they even use those processes to move information, just a different version of Nixon’s “For god’s sake, would someone leak this already?”
- penneallagricia 3y ago
  Ok, then why punish whistleblowers so harshly? Countries should consider it a useful public service.
  - handedness 3y ago
    Leaking sources and/or methods gets people killed. Good people often living in terrible places and circumstances, many of them. Maybe most. It also makes good information more difficult to come by for a long time. Nations spying on nations (even allies) feels terrible but in practice is probably a net good for all. It reduces uncertainty, and uncertainty has historically been a major trigger for armed conflict as one side feared the other side was preparing to strike, so struck first to gain the initiative in case their fears were well-founded. History has shown that judgment to be inaccurate in some significant cases. Wars have also been avoided by good intel. On the non-kinetic side, espionage better informs policymakers as international agreements are forged and followed. Uncertainty between nations is generally a bad thing for both nations. We badly need to address nations spying on their own citizens, especially reciprocity arrangements to circumvent restrictions on such. But pending an unlikely utopia of humans all learning how to cooperate at scale for the first time in human history, nations spying on nations is probably a good thing for the planet.
    - infamouscow 3y ago
      > Leaking sources and/or methods gets people killed. Is there any evidence of this being true or speculation?
      - ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
        yes, tons throughout history here is 1 such example off the top of my head: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Hanssen https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Hanssen
nullityrofl 3y ago
> What I don't understand is the complete lack of response from countries like Italy and Germany once they found out being spied by an ally. Because they're all doing it too. Any attempts at retaliation what have been hypocritical and met with callouts. EDIT: Since this is news to some people who seem to think that the entirety of Europe is on a moral high horse, here's some references. There's little morality in intelligence. Europe spies on its own citizens: https://slate.com/technology/2022/11/europe-spyware-scandal-pegasus-report.html https://slate.com/technology/2022/11/europe-spyware-scandal-... Germany helped the US spy on EU allies: https://www.dw.com/en/parliamentary-report-finds-spying-by-bnd-on-eu-and-nato-governments-until-2013/a-19393213 https://www.dw.com/en/parliamentary-report-finds-spying-by-b... France admits they spied on the US: https://www.france24.com/en/20131024-nsa-france-spying-squarcini-dcri-hollande-ayrault-merkel-usa-obama https://www.france24.com/en/20131024-nsa-france-spying-squar... Germany was found to be spying on the US: https://www.dw.com/en/german-intelligence-spied-on-white-house/a-39365418 https://www.dw.com/en/german-intelligence-spied-on-white-hou... The Dutch helped the US spy on the EU: https://www.dw.com/en/danish-secret-service-helped-us-spy-on-germanys-angela-merkel-report/a-57721901 https://www.dw.com/en/danish-secret-service-helped-us-spy-on...
- pastacacioepepe 3y ago
  There was in fact a small reaction[0][1] and it's naive to think that the espionage systems and efforts USA and European countries have are in any way comparable. > Because they're all doing it too. Any attempts at retaliation what have been hypocritical and met with callouts. Source? I can tell you already there is none. We have plenty of evidence that the USA is spying Europe and other allies, none of the opposite. .0: https://www.osw.waw.pl/en/publikacje/osw-commentary/2014-01-14/nsa-impact-wiretapping-scandal-german-american-relations https://www.osw.waw.pl/en/publikacje/osw-commentary/2014-01-... .1: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/09/germany-arrest-second-spy-accused-us-cia https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/09/germany-arrest...
  - nullityrofl 3y ago
    You mean like Europe's use of Pegasus? https://slate.com/technology/2022/11/europe-spyware-scandal-pegasus-report.html https://slate.com/technology/2022/11/europe-spyware-scandal-...
MattGaiser 3y ago
You make the big assumption that countries are surprised to be spied on. Granted, the head of French military intelligence was absurdly inadequate, but are generations of spies in those countries clueless? Probably not.
cscurmudgeon 3y ago
[flagged]
logicchains 3y ago
>What I don't understand is the complete lack of response from countries like Italy and Germany once they found out being spied by an ally. They're basically vassal states. With no meaningful armies of their own, they rely on the US for their protection, so they're in no position to challenge it.

ako 3y ago

Maybe there was no response because it was expected. Probably all countries spy on all other countries. Especially during the Trump era, it wasn’t clear that USA was still an ally, so I hope other countries prepared for that by increasing their intelligence on the USA, just to avoid inconvenient surprises.

penneallagricia 3y ago
This has nothing to do with Trump per se, it's really a bipartisan issue, as the new pentagon leaks just confirmed. I also doubt European countries have the capacity to intercept private calls between top level USA govt officials.
- zirgs 3y ago
  What makes you think that they don't? They surely would keep that capability secret.
  - penneallagricia 3y ago
    > They surely would keep that capability secret. Like the USA itself couldn't? Strongly doubt, the amount of recent leaks we're just discussing proves me right. No nation could have such an espionage system in place without it ever leaking out in some way.
- nullityrofl 3y ago
  It's already well known that many EU nations have capabilities like this. The French: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/04/france-electronic-spying-operation-nsa https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/04/france-electro... The Germans: https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/germany-arrests-foreign-intelligence-employee-suspected-spying-russia-2022-12-22/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/germany-arrests-foreign... Lets not forget that most of the EU is wrapped up in the Pegasus spy scandal: https://www.dw.com/en/eu-watergate-the-pegasus-spyware-scandal-keeps-spreading/a-63687981 https://www.dw.com/en/eu-watergate-the-pegasus-spyware-scand... Playing holier than thou with intelligence services is a losing game. There is no holy intelligence service and there is no nation without an intelligence function.
  - pastacacioepepe 3y ago
    These are all examples of EU countries doing domestic, not foreign espionage (which is also despicable, by the way). You can search all you want but there is no evidence or proof whatsoever of EU countries spying USA top government officials. The question here is how can you call yourself an ally in good faith when you spy on your allies?
    - nullityrofl 3y ago
      The fact that it has not been leaked is not proof of the negative. The US had been spying on Europe for 50+ years before Snowden and the US continues to spy on Europe right now without any further leaks -- by your logic that must mean that the US isn't currently spying on the EU, right, or there would be leaks? There's plenty of evidence of the EU spying on allies. I can't tell if your implication is "Europe can't maintain smart enough computer scientists and engineers capable of spying on the US" or "Europe has the moral high ground and doesn't spy on allies". Both are naive.
    - throwrqX 3y ago
      > You can search all you want but there is no evidence or proof whatsoever of EU countries spying USA top government officials. Nonsense. https://www.france24.com/en/20131024-nsa-france-spying-squarcini-dcri-hollande-ayrault-merkel-usa-obama https://www.france24.com/en/20131024-nsa-france-spying-squar... https://www.dw.com/en/german-intelligence-spied-on-white-house/a-39365418 https://www.dw.com/en/german-intelligence-spied-on-white-hou...

kelipso 3y ago

The US has been the sole superpower for more than 3 decades now. Its relationship to its allies are more like relationships with vassals, see geopolitical interactions with European countries, Japan, South Korea.

vasco 3y ago
I'd say at least since WWII. Admittedly we wouldn't be here without the US coming in and saving us from Germany.
somedude895 3y ago
Those relationships are mutually beneficial. Germany has been able to underspend on its military for decades because of US protection. Obviously the US is going to want to know what the German government is up to in regards to, say, Russia.

low_tech_love 3y ago

As a non-USAer, I strongly disagree. There are probably a handful of other countries watching you right now (in a broad, abstract sense) and the USA is the least of our concerns. There is a reason why nothing significant came out of it: every other country knows that this is happening (not exactly but roughly) and they know there are much worse problems to worry about, given other strong international players such as Russia and China. There is no ”surveillance free world” alternative. The USA is a very strong and stable democracy (maybe even the strongest) so I think it’s naive to think that removing them from the board would be a good thing.

penneallagricia 3y ago
This isn't about removing the USA from the board, this is about letting the truth out. That thing we claim to base our democracies upon. Your argument boils down to giving up our supposedly better values in order to defeat the "evil guys". I also refuse to accept that our future is under the hegemony of any single nation. So far the only country we have proof of going for hegemony is the USA. Russia and China are concerned with their borders and it's trivial to verify my assessment Is correct. Just compare military expenses and amount of military bases owned across the world.
- achenet 3y ago
  > Russia and China are concerned with their borders and it's trivial to verify my assessment Is correct. Russia is invading a neighboring country, and from talking to Lithuanians, the Russia people seem rather keen on returning to the "good old days" of the Soviet Empire.
bombolo 3y ago
As a person living in Sweden, it seems that my most immediate concern is USA. They are the ones that can ask the swedish government to make up some BS accusations to arrest me and eventually ship me to USA where I will be tortured.
- ineedasername 3y ago

killjoywashere 3y ago

Meh, countries know they spy on each other. Sometimes they even use those processes to move information, just a different version of Nixon’s “For god’s sake, would someone leak this already?”

penneallagricia 3y ago
Ok, then why punish whistleblowers so harshly? Countries should consider it a useful public service.
- handedness 3y ago
  Leaking sources and/or methods gets people killed. Good people often living in terrible places and circumstances, many of them. Maybe most. It also makes good information more difficult to come by for a long time. Nations spying on nations (even allies) feels terrible but in practice is probably a net good for all. It reduces uncertainty, and uncertainty has historically been a major trigger for armed conflict as one side feared the other side was preparing to strike, so struck first to gain the initiative in case their fears were well-founded. History has shown that judgment to be inaccurate in some significant cases. Wars have also been avoided by good intel. On the non-kinetic side, espionage better informs policymakers as international agreements are forged and followed. Uncertainty between nations is generally a bad thing for both nations. We badly need to address nations spying on their own citizens, especially reciprocity arrangements to circumvent restrictions on such. But pending an unlikely utopia of humans all learning how to cooperate at scale for the first time in human history, nations spying on nations is probably a good thing for the planet.
  - infamouscow 3y ago
    > Leaking sources and/or methods gets people killed. Is there any evidence of this being true or speculation?
    - ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
      yes, tons throughout history here is 1 such example off the top of my head: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Hanssen https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Hanssen

nullityrofl 3y ago

> What I don't understand is the complete lack of response from countries like Italy and Germany once they found out being spied by an ally. Because they're all doing it too. Any attempts at retaliation what have been hypocritical and met with callouts. EDIT: Since this is news to some people who seem to think that the entirety of Europe is on a moral high horse, here's some references. There's little morality in intelligence. Europe spies on its own citizens: https://slate.com/technology/2022/11/europe-spyware-scandal-pegasus-report.html https://slate.com/technology/2022/11/europe-spyware-scandal-... Germany helped the US spy on EU allies: https://www.dw.com/en/parliamentary-report-finds-spying-by-bnd-on-eu-and-nato-governments-until-2013/a-19393213 https://www.dw.com/en/parliamentary-report-finds-spying-by-b... France admits they spied on the US: https://www.france24.com/en/20131024-nsa-france-spying-squarcini-dcri-hollande-ayrault-merkel-usa-obama https://www.france24.com/en/20131024-nsa-france-spying-squar... Germany was found to be spying on the US: https://www.dw.com/en/german-intelligence-spied-on-white-house/a-39365418 https://www.dw.com/en/german-intelligence-spied-on-white-hou... The Dutch helped the US spy on the EU: https://www.dw.com/en/danish-secret-service-helped-us-spy-on-germanys-angela-merkel-report/a-57721901 https://www.dw.com/en/danish-secret-service-helped-us-spy-on...

pastacacioepepe 3y ago
There was in fact a small reaction[0][1] and it's naive to think that the espionage systems and efforts USA and European countries have are in any way comparable. > Because they're all doing it too. Any attempts at retaliation what have been hypocritical and met with callouts. Source? I can tell you already there is none. We have plenty of evidence that the USA is spying Europe and other allies, none of the opposite. .0: https://www.osw.waw.pl/en/publikacje/osw-commentary/2014-01-14/nsa-impact-wiretapping-scandal-german-american-relations https://www.osw.waw.pl/en/publikacje/osw-commentary/2014-01-... .1: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/09/germany-arrest-second-spy-accused-us-cia https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/09/germany-arrest...
- nullityrofl 3y ago
  You mean like Europe's use of Pegasus? https://slate.com/technology/2022/11/europe-spyware-scandal-pegasus-report.html https://slate.com/technology/2022/11/europe-spyware-scandal-...

MattGaiser 3y ago

You make the big assumption that countries are surprised to be spied on. Granted, the head of French military intelligence was absurdly inadequate, but are generations of spies in those countries clueless? Probably not.

cscurmudgeon 3y ago

[flagged]

logicchains 3y ago

>What I don't understand is the complete lack of response from countries like Italy and Germany once they found out being spied by an ally. They're basically vassal states. With no meaningful armies of their own, they rely on the US for their protection, so they're in no position to challenge it.