4 ms·

Look around you and observe your friends, family, colleagues, or a significant other, but really: any adults. This is not only affecting "teen girls", and certa

by kmarc 3y ago

Look around you and observe your friends, family, colleagues, or a significant other, but really: any adults. This is not only affecting "teen girls", and certainly not only US people. We need more research on this without "teen girls" in the clickbait titles. This affects everyone. It affected the person of my romantic interest and I had to break up at the end. This affects 30+ year old men too. Don't dismiss it. Besides research we need solutions. We need advice on how to approach this topic. We need to find a way to be able to help those who want it.

TheLoafOfBread 3y ago
> This affects 30+ year old men too. Don't dismiss it. Society does not care about male problems. Let's just label them incels or terrorists and be done with it. Also at the same time let's wonder why Andrew Tate and similar are easily getting such a huge following.
- 226_ebro_treaty 3y ago
  Most problems people have after 25 or so are directly related to income, which would upset rich people's pockets, so no, they literally do not matter.
- dotandgtfo 3y ago
  Hot take, I know, and sorry in advance. But I'll go so far as to say that what you're saying here is in part caused by technology, the internet and social media. Most reasonable people, and reasonable feminists (which most feminists I've met are) do sympathise with men and their issues as well. I think social media amplifies the extreme minorities voices that state that they don't care about male problems, that men are incels and far-right terrorists and other unsavory takes. I don't think most people label males as such. But I do think social media is extremely good at bringing up these takes - because they create a lot of engagement (particularly from the opposing side). I think social media affects 30 year old males in the exact same way as teenage girls get body image problems from looking at "perfect" lives on Instagram. Men get served toxic and outrage based content that shows the extreme outliers - multiple times a week, for multiple years in a row. I think most people are reasonable. I think most people care about male problems. I think a minority label men as incels or terrorists. I think the internet exaggerates this position greatly, and it's at least partly overblown.
  - revelio 3y ago
    Reasonableness is hard to determine ahead of time, or even to define. Here's something I've seen happen. A couple of women in a corporate Slack channel says, hey CEO, what are you going to do to celebrate International Women's Day? Some dudes respond and say, cool, good idea but if we do something for that can we also celebrate International Men's Day? The women reply with angry face and eyeroll emojis before saying: no we should not, because "every day is international men's day". This is the type of casual misandry and anti-male sentiment that is an everyday experience when dealing with feminists. Were these women the "reasonable" type? They weren't literally tweeting #KillAllMen but when it came to the crunch they wanted special privileges for women and justified this sexism with shallow, untrue meme-based kneejerks. So the OPs point is accurate. Nobody cares about men being depressed or angry, especially not in government, academia or the media. Phrase it in terms of teen girls and the floodgates of tax money open. Let that affect strategy or don't, but that's how it is.
    - kmarc 3y ago
      this is the hardest of all. When it comes to men's day, indeed all day is celebration of 20% higher salaries that men receive in average. OTOH, introducing men's day sounds fair as then everyone is treated equally (in this aspect) I really don't know which side of this particular debate we should support more. What I'm sure is that the topic is more delicate and complicated than having a one-sentence answer to it.
      - revelio 3y ago
        See, this is exactly what we're talking about. Firstly, every day is clearly not a celebration of men. This is exactly the same lie that the feminists pushed in the Slack channel. A "celebration" has lots of very specific aspects to it, for example they wanted the company doing public announcements, praising female employees (for existing, more or less), talking about how important it is to hire more women and so on. Secondly, men don't receive higher salaries when controlling for the work done and age. When you control for those things women now earn higher salaries, reflecting feminist biases in hiring. This insistence that work and motherhood should be ignored is also a feminist meme that's been repeatedly debunked since the 1980s. It never goes away because if feminists were to accept this, they'd have to also concede that different choices lead to different outcomes, that men and women make different choices, and therefore that disparate outcomes is not oppression. And that would undermine the whole premise of feminist ideology. So feminists can never be honest about salaries, if they were, they'd no longer be feminists.
- roenxi 3y ago
  That is just factually inaccurate. Society cares a lot about male problems. Men have a legitimate complaint that public displays of misandry are tolerated far beyond what is fair, but in terms of on-the-ground outcomes it is hard to point to anything unreasonable going on. At scale anyway, the world is full of local warts. The main problem men have when it comes to medical outcomes is their absolute refusal to seek help. I can name multiple men I know who died or came close to it because they refused to see a doctor. I intend to go out the same way, for what it is worth. Seems likely that attitude carries over to mental health.
  - AwaAwa 3y ago
    Research on breast cancer is much better funded than prostate cancer. Might this serves as a hard point, in light of the higher fatality of the latter?
    - roenxi 3y ago
      And yet it is very easy to lay hands on a study saying that the overall system is over-funding diseases that affect men [0]. It is not very useful to find one data point arguing either way. Besides, we'd probably expect strictly gendered disease problems to be biased towards spending on women. Men have a prostrate and a penis to keep tabs of, women have an entire reproductive system that looks mighty complex and delicate. Given the amount of money that is hopefully sloshing around to make it safe for women to have kids, maybe some of it spilled over into breast cancer funding. It is a reasonable situation. [0] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33232627/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33232627/
      - AwaAwa 3y ago
        Looks like the diseases in question there are diseases that are more prevalent amongst men than women. Not diseases that are exclusively for men over women. Perhaps there is a curve where if its a disease that can affect both genders there is a bias for men, and if it is exclusively to a specific gender then women get the benefit.
lelanthran 3y ago
> This affects 30+ year old men too. Don't dismiss it. Society doesn't fix things unless women are affected Its routine, right now in popular culture to regard rape as a joke, to make fun of the victims, to trivialise it, to limit discussions about it... Unless it's a female victim. Same with violence, more men are victims than women, but only females receive the help and support. Even with these new (dubious) numbers there is no mention that males still outnumber females in terms of suicides.
- kibibu 3y ago
  The USA is currently engaging in widespread active revocation of women's rights. And, yes, suicide attempts and suicide injuries are included in the report. I suggest you read past the headline. The report does not support your "this affects everybody equally" claims.
  - lelanthran 3y ago
    > And, yes, suicide attempts and suicide injuries are included in the report. But not suicides. It's always been the case that females attempt suicide or express suicidal thoughts more than males but we lose, by a massive margin, more males to suicide than females: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_differences_in_suicide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_differences_in_suicide Actual death is a more important problem than injury, and yet it's the injury that is getting the attention, not the actual death. > I suggest you read past the headline. The report does not support your "this affects everybody equally" claims. Before you jump to conclusions you might want to read up on this particular area of research. The wikipedia page above is a good starting point (follow the link "suicide paradox").
- lamontcg 3y ago
  The problem with teen girls is very likely social media. The focus on them is because the problem is pretty stark and takes off nicely coincident with facebook. But its interesting that you'd use all the redpill tropes that men have been getting fed by social media to passive aggressively point out that men suffer from the same problems too. You're both explicitly and implicitly arguing the point that men suffer as well. It is just more difficult to track grown men because right wing radio has been making them miserable for decades, so there hasn't been a stark change in the past 15 years or so. In other words, I agree men are being made miserable by social media, because you sound miserable.
frankfrankfrank 3y ago
You are absolutely right that it is affecting the whole society, but no amount of research will ever discover the things you’re not allowed to notice, let alone solve. Is what makes the censorship and attacks on free speech stop pernicious, because as the attacks are only ramping up, so will the subject situation only get worse, because you cannot solve things you cannot even say out loud.

by kmarc 3y ago

TheLoafOfBread 3y ago

> This affects 30+ year old men too. Don't dismiss it. Society does not care about male problems. Let's just label them incels or terrorists and be done with it. Also at the same time let's wonder why Andrew Tate and similar are easily getting such a huge following.

226_ebro_treaty 3y ago
Most problems people have after 25 or so are directly related to income, which would upset rich people's pockets, so no, they literally do not matter.
dotandgtfo 3y ago
Hot take, I know, and sorry in advance. But I'll go so far as to say that what you're saying here is in part caused by technology, the internet and social media. Most reasonable people, and reasonable feminists (which most feminists I've met are) do sympathise with men and their issues as well. I think social media amplifies the extreme minorities voices that state that they don't care about male problems, that men are incels and far-right terrorists and other unsavory takes. I don't think most people label males as such. But I do think social media is extremely good at bringing up these takes - because they create a lot of engagement (particularly from the opposing side). I think social media affects 30 year old males in the exact same way as teenage girls get body image problems from looking at "perfect" lives on Instagram. Men get served toxic and outrage based content that shows the extreme outliers - multiple times a week, for multiple years in a row. I think most people are reasonable. I think most people care about male problems. I think a minority label men as incels or terrorists. I think the internet exaggerates this position greatly, and it's at least partly overblown.
- revelio 3y ago
  Reasonableness is hard to determine ahead of time, or even to define. Here's something I've seen happen. A couple of women in a corporate Slack channel says, hey CEO, what are you going to do to celebrate International Women's Day? Some dudes respond and say, cool, good idea but if we do something for that can we also celebrate International Men's Day? The women reply with angry face and eyeroll emojis before saying: no we should not, because "every day is international men's day". This is the type of casual misandry and anti-male sentiment that is an everyday experience when dealing with feminists. Were these women the "reasonable" type? They weren't literally tweeting #KillAllMen but when it came to the crunch they wanted special privileges for women and justified this sexism with shallow, untrue meme-based kneejerks. So the OPs point is accurate. Nobody cares about men being depressed or angry, especially not in government, academia or the media. Phrase it in terms of teen girls and the floodgates of tax money open. Let that affect strategy or don't, but that's how it is.
  - kmarc 3y ago
    this is the hardest of all. When it comes to men's day, indeed all day is celebration of 20% higher salaries that men receive in average. OTOH, introducing men's day sounds fair as then everyone is treated equally (in this aspect) I really don't know which side of this particular debate we should support more. What I'm sure is that the topic is more delicate and complicated than having a one-sentence answer to it.
    - revelio 3y ago
      See, this is exactly what we're talking about. Firstly, every day is clearly not a celebration of men. This is exactly the same lie that the feminists pushed in the Slack channel. A "celebration" has lots of very specific aspects to it, for example they wanted the company doing public announcements, praising female employees (for existing, more or less), talking about how important it is to hire more women and so on. Secondly, men don't receive higher salaries when controlling for the work done and age. When you control for those things women now earn higher salaries, reflecting feminist biases in hiring. This insistence that work and motherhood should be ignored is also a feminist meme that's been repeatedly debunked since the 1980s. It never goes away because if feminists were to accept this, they'd have to also concede that different choices lead to different outcomes, that men and women make different choices, and therefore that disparate outcomes is not oppression. And that would undermine the whole premise of feminist ideology. So feminists can never be honest about salaries, if they were, they'd no longer be feminists.
roenxi 3y ago
That is just factually inaccurate. Society cares a lot about male problems. Men have a legitimate complaint that public displays of misandry are tolerated far beyond what is fair, but in terms of on-the-ground outcomes it is hard to point to anything unreasonable going on. At scale anyway, the world is full of local warts. The main problem men have when it comes to medical outcomes is their absolute refusal to seek help. I can name multiple men I know who died or came close to it because they refused to see a doctor. I intend to go out the same way, for what it is worth. Seems likely that attitude carries over to mental health.
- AwaAwa 3y ago
  Research on breast cancer is much better funded than prostate cancer. Might this serves as a hard point, in light of the higher fatality of the latter?
  - roenxi 3y ago
    And yet it is very easy to lay hands on a study saying that the overall system is over-funding diseases that affect men [0]. It is not very useful to find one data point arguing either way. Besides, we'd probably expect strictly gendered disease problems to be biased towards spending on women. Men have a prostrate and a penis to keep tabs of, women have an entire reproductive system that looks mighty complex and delicate. Given the amount of money that is hopefully sloshing around to make it safe for women to have kids, maybe some of it spilled over into breast cancer funding. It is a reasonable situation. [0] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33232627/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33232627/
    - AwaAwa 3y ago
      Looks like the diseases in question there are diseases that are more prevalent amongst men than women. Not diseases that are exclusively for men over women. Perhaps there is a curve where if its a disease that can affect both genders there is a bias for men, and if it is exclusively to a specific gender then women get the benefit.

lelanthran 3y ago

> This affects 30+ year old men too. Don't dismiss it. Society doesn't fix things unless women are affected Its routine, right now in popular culture to regard rape as a joke, to make fun of the victims, to trivialise it, to limit discussions about it... Unless it's a female victim. Same with violence, more men are victims than women, but only females receive the help and support. Even with these new (dubious) numbers there is no mention that males still outnumber females in terms of suicides.

kibibu 3y ago
The USA is currently engaging in widespread active revocation of women's rights. And, yes, suicide attempts and suicide injuries are included in the report. I suggest you read past the headline. The report does not support your "this affects everybody equally" claims.
- lelanthran 3y ago
  > And, yes, suicide attempts and suicide injuries are included in the report. But not suicides. It's always been the case that females attempt suicide or express suicidal thoughts more than males but we lose, by a massive margin, more males to suicide than females: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_differences_in_suicide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_differences_in_suicide Actual death is a more important problem than injury, and yet it's the injury that is getting the attention, not the actual death. > I suggest you read past the headline. The report does not support your "this affects everybody equally" claims. Before you jump to conclusions you might want to read up on this particular area of research. The wikipedia page above is a good starting point (follow the link "suicide paradox").
lamontcg 3y ago
The problem with teen girls is very likely social media. The focus on them is because the problem is pretty stark and takes off nicely coincident with facebook. But its interesting that you'd use all the redpill tropes that men have been getting fed by social media to passive aggressively point out that men suffer from the same problems too. You're both explicitly and implicitly arguing the point that men suffer as well. It is just more difficult to track grown men because right wing radio has been making them miserable for decades, so there hasn't been a stark change in the past 15 years or so. In other words, I agree men are being made miserable by social media, because you sound miserable.

frankfrankfrank 3y ago

You are absolutely right that it is affecting the whole society, but no amount of research will ever discover the things you’re not allowed to notice, let alone solve. Is what makes the censorship and attacks on free speech stop pernicious, because as the attacks are only ramping up, so will the subject situation only get worse, because you cannot solve things you cannot even say out loud.