3 ms·

Sator Square

50 points by zeristor 4y ago

zeristor 4y ago
No mention of the film Tenet in the Wikipedia article. A strange random combination of rewatching the Future Sound of London Papua New Guinea music video: https://youtu.be/wfWMv8Y1V5E https://youtu.be/wfWMv8Y1V5E And then Patrick (H) Willems a video on the film Tenet: TENET And A Celebration Of Vibes Movies https://youtu.be/ZStkUxC4iL4 https://youtu.be/ZStkUxC4iL4 Neurons that fire together, wire together.
- johncoltrane 4y ago
  Hmm. I see it mentioned several times.
- tjpnz 4y ago
  It's in there. --- British-American director Christopher Nolan's 2020 film Tenet, incorporates all the five of the names from the Sator square: The main antagonist is named Sator. The artist who created the forged Goya drawings was named 'Arepo'. Tenet is the title of the film as well as the secret organization that works to save the world. The opening scene is set at an opera house. Sator owns a construction company called 'Rotas'.
  - zeristor 4y ago
    Yes, I missed it. I thought I read through it more thoroughly, it wasn’t at the end where one might expect media references in Wikipedia, and seemingly one has to open each folded section to download the text for a find in page to work.
- sanat 4y ago
  I saw the Vibes movie video too - and loved it. And I loved Tenet too - but I did go back and read a lot of explanation about it.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
nullc 4y ago
eons ago I made this list of wikipedia article titles that can be converted into these squares, the hashmarks around the perimeters link to the articles. There are probably many more possible today. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Gmaxwell/sandfoo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Gmaxwell/sandfoo Wikipedia's new style messes up the rendering, sadly.
- zeristor 4y ago
  Zzzzz?
  - nullc 4y ago
    Don't look at me, I didn't name the articles!
- lelandfe 4y ago
  How did you find the articles?
  - nullc 4y ago
    From a local mirror of the database.
netrus 4y ago
Interesting! But the article is a good example of academic overthinking. A lot of theories mentioned in the article would not survive Occam's razor. There is the strong wish that everything ancient was meaningful, when a perfectly fine explanation is that it is a fun play with words. Maybe a very early and slow-traveling meme?
- dmos62 4y ago
  That's the most facile explanation, but it's also the most boring one. It's always easier to say that something doesn't have meaning, function, or design, rather than to say that you don't know what it is.
- giraffe_lady 4y ago
  Occam's razor is one tool in archeological history. But another is that things many people spend resources to reproduce often have value or meaning. It's also more likely when the practice is widespread across geography or time and especially both. If you're going off of just heuristics there is at least as much pointing to significance than not.
Aransentin 4y ago
I wrote a quick script a while ago to bruteforce English 5x5 Sator squares using a wordlist, and the only one that makes some limited sense is t i m i d i r a n i m a d a m i n a r i d i m i t I.e. "[the] timid Iranian madam that Inari* dimit(=dismissed)". * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inari_%C5%8Ckami https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inari_%C5%8Ckami (Of course, when googling for it somebody else had done the exact same thing and found the exact same square before: https://github.com/daniele-rapagnani/sator-squares https://github.com/daniele-rapagnani/sator-squares)
- Mordisquitos 4y ago
  I suppose another interpretation could be that 'Inari Dimit' is the timid Iranian woman, though I find no evidence online supporting that 'Dimit' is an extant surname, let alone a Persian one. On the other hand though, Inari is so timid that it's hardly surprising that there's no sign of her extremely rare surname.
- orthoxerox 4y ago
  And one in Russian: р у ш и м у м а м и ш а л а ш и м а м у м и ш у р
onnodigcomplex 4y ago
I once spend more time than I want to admit constructing the best possible 10-square in Dutch[1]. There are also some other forms that are fun, like cubes[2], or hypercubes. Or using bigrams. Or hexagonal tiles. And so forth. Finding solutions for big squares/wordlists in reasonable time is actually not a trivial algorithmic problem. Neither is making good wordlists, I ended up creating what is essentially a Dutch version of the Pile[3] just to collect words. Good fun. [1] https://old.reddit.com/r/thenetherlands/comments/zgr61e/ik_heb_na_7_jaar_eindelijk_het_eerste/ https://old.reddit.com/r/thenetherlands/comments/zgr61e/ik_h... [2] https://i.redd.it/a61yuistbkm61.png https://i.redd.it/a61yuistbkm61.png [3] http://gigacorpus.nl/ http://gigacorpus.nl/
- zoover2020 4y ago
  Relevant username! How much effort did it took you?
  - onnodigcomplex 4y ago
    I spend months collecting the dataset to create a wordlist. And I also spend 100+ hours just judging squares and words. And eventually also training char-level LLM's to do that job for me. In Dutch you can compound and there is quite an active morphology so it can be really tricky to judge whether a given word is any good. Since I worked on it on and off, and also did a bunch other related things I'm not sure, but I would be surprised if I spend any less than 1000+ hours on these silly word-games.
zeristor 4y ago
I guess there’s some Sudoku Wordless, Sator game thing in this somewhere.
- rhplus 4y ago
  It looks like a Daily Mini Crossword to me: https://www.nytimes.com/crosswords/game/mini https://www.nytimes.com/crosswords/game/mini
_aaed 4y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nipson_anomemata_me_monan_opsin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nipson_anomemata_me_monan_opsi...
dstick 4y ago
Now I know where Terry Pratchett got the name from :D https://wiki.lspace.org/Sator_Square https://wiki.lspace.org/Sator_Square
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
oliwary 4y ago
If you enjoy these, try my word game https://squareword.org https://squareword.org It is a bit like wordle, but every day there is a new 5x5 square of letters to uncover. Unlike the sator square, every word is unique though, for a total of 10 words. It was really fun to come up with the algorithm to discover these squares. Here is an example square of a few days ago: s c a r e t i t a n a v o i d t e n s e s t e e d
ahmedtd 4y ago
Related (though not a sator square). A while back I made an implementation of 5x5 word squares, following an example from Knuth: https://row-major.net/articles/2020-05-12-interactive-word-squares/ https://row-major.net/articles/2020-05-12-interactive-word-s...

50 points by zeristor 4y ago

No mention of the film Tenet in the Wikipedia article. A strange random combination of rewatching the Future Sound of London Papua New Guinea music video: https://youtu.be/wfWMv8Y1V5E https://youtu.be/wfWMv8Y1V5E And then Patrick (H) Willems a video on the film Tenet: TENET And A Celebration Of Vibes Movies https://youtu.be/ZStkUxC4iL4 https://youtu.be/ZStkUxC4iL4 Neurons that fire together, wire together.

johncoltrane 4y ago
Hmm. I see it mentioned several times.
tjpnz 4y ago
It's in there. --- British-American director Christopher Nolan's 2020 film Tenet, incorporates all the five of the names from the Sator square: The main antagonist is named Sator. The artist who created the forged Goya drawings was named 'Arepo'. Tenet is the title of the film as well as the secret organization that works to save the world. The opening scene is set at an opera house. Sator owns a construction company called 'Rotas'.
- zeristor 4y ago
  Yes, I missed it. I thought I read through it more thoroughly, it wasn’t at the end where one might expect media references in Wikipedia, and seemingly one has to open each folded section to download the text for a find in page to work.
sanat 4y ago
I saw the Vibes movie video too - and loved it. And I loved Tenet too - but I did go back and read a lot of explanation about it.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

nullc 4y ago

eons ago I made this list of wikipedia article titles that can be converted into these squares, the hashmarks around the perimeters link to the articles. There are probably many more possible today. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Gmaxwell/sandfoo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Gmaxwell/sandfoo Wikipedia's new style messes up the rendering, sadly.

zeristor 4y ago
Zzzzz?
- nullc 4y ago
  Don't look at me, I didn't name the articles!
lelandfe 4y ago
How did you find the articles?
- nullc 4y ago
  From a local mirror of the database.

netrus 4y ago

Interesting! But the article is a good example of academic overthinking. A lot of theories mentioned in the article would not survive Occam's razor. There is the strong wish that everything ancient was meaningful, when a perfectly fine explanation is that it is a fun play with words. Maybe a very early and slow-traveling meme?

dmos62 4y ago
That's the most facile explanation, but it's also the most boring one. It's always easier to say that something doesn't have meaning, function, or design, rather than to say that you don't know what it is.
giraffe_lady 4y ago
Occam's razor is one tool in archeological history. But another is that things many people spend resources to reproduce often have value or meaning. It's also more likely when the practice is widespread across geography or time and especially both. If you're going off of just heuristics there is at least as much pointing to significance than not.

Aransentin 4y ago

I wrote a quick script a while ago to bruteforce English 5x5 Sator squares using a wordlist, and the only one that makes some limited sense is t i m i d i r a n i m a d a m i n a r i d i m i t I.e. "[the] timid Iranian madam that Inari* dimit(=dismissed)". * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inari_%C5%8Ckami https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inari_%C5%8Ckami (Of course, when googling for it somebody else had done the exact same thing and found the exact same square before: https://github.com/daniele-rapagnani/sator-squares https://github.com/daniele-rapagnani/sator-squares)

Mordisquitos 4y ago
I suppose another interpretation could be that 'Inari Dimit' is the timid Iranian woman, though I find no evidence online supporting that 'Dimit' is an extant surname, let alone a Persian one. On the other hand though, Inari is so timid that it's hardly surprising that there's no sign of her extremely rare surname.
orthoxerox 4y ago
And one in Russian: р у ш и м у м а м и ш а л а ш и м а м у м и ш у р

onnodigcomplex 4y ago

I once spend more time than I want to admit constructing the best possible 10-square in Dutch[1]. There are also some other forms that are fun, like cubes[2], or hypercubes. Or using bigrams. Or hexagonal tiles. And so forth. Finding solutions for big squares/wordlists in reasonable time is actually not a trivial algorithmic problem. Neither is making good wordlists, I ended up creating what is essentially a Dutch version of the Pile[3] just to collect words. Good fun. [1] https://old.reddit.com/r/thenetherlands/comments/zgr61e/ik_heb_na_7_jaar_eindelijk_het_eerste/ https://old.reddit.com/r/thenetherlands/comments/zgr61e/ik_h... [2] https://i.redd.it/a61yuistbkm61.png https://i.redd.it/a61yuistbkm61.png [3] http://gigacorpus.nl/ http://gigacorpus.nl/

zoover2020 4y ago
Relevant username! How much effort did it took you?
- onnodigcomplex 4y ago
  I spend months collecting the dataset to create a wordlist. And I also spend 100+ hours just judging squares and words. And eventually also training char-level LLM's to do that job for me. In Dutch you can compound and there is quite an active morphology so it can be really tricky to judge whether a given word is any good. Since I worked on it on and off, and also did a bunch other related things I'm not sure, but I would be surprised if I spend any less than 1000+ hours on these silly word-games.

zeristor 4y ago

I guess there’s some Sudoku Wordless, Sator game thing in this somewhere.

rhplus 4y ago
It looks like a Daily Mini Crossword to me: https://www.nytimes.com/crosswords/game/mini https://www.nytimes.com/crosswords/game/mini

_aaed 4y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nipson_anomemata_me_monan_opsin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nipson_anomemata_me_monan_opsi...

dstick 4y ago

Now I know where Terry Pratchett got the name from :D https://wiki.lspace.org/Sator_Square https://wiki.lspace.org/Sator_Square

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

oliwary 4y ago

If you enjoy these, try my word game https://squareword.org https://squareword.org It is a bit like wordle, but every day there is a new 5x5 square of letters to uncover. Unlike the sator square, every word is unique though, for a total of 10 words. It was really fun to come up with the algorithm to discover these squares. Here is an example square of a few days ago: s c a r e t i t a n a v o i d t e n s e s t e e d

ahmedtd 4y ago

Related (though not a sator square). A while back I made an implementation of 5x5 word squares, following an example from Knuth: https://row-major.net/articles/2020-05-12-interactive-word-squares/ https://row-major.net/articles/2020-05-12-interactive-word-s...