4 ms·

Heat pumps are about 250-300% efficient. Relative to resistive heating which is of course 100% efficient. Gas is about close to 100% (you loose some via exhaust

Heat pumps are about 250-300% efficient. Relative to resistive heating which is of course 100% efficient. Gas is about close to 100% (you loose some via exhaust). Ground source heat pumps work pretty much anywhere. Air source heat pumps can be more challenging but can also work at more extreme temperatures. They don't stop working but their efficiency drops a bit. And of course resistive heating doesn't stop working. Heat pumps are used all over Scandinavia and well into the arctic circle, including rural areas in the parts of Scandinavia (i.e. the polar circle) that see extreme temperatures far more regularly and for far longer periods than NY. Of course relative to NY, they do have a more reliable power grid and excellent building standards. Triple (not double) glazing is the norm there, for example. And of course more rural places would also feature wood stoves as a backup. There is mostly no gas network there; especially not in rural areas. Before heat pumps became popular about thirty years ago they would have used that or oil based systems.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
nucleardog 4y ago
> And of course resistive heating doesn't stop working. Well except… > Of course relative to NY, they do have a more reliable power grid Okay, yeah. That would pretty much be my concern. Having been without power for over two weeks in the past 12 months the propane tanks and propane stove / furnace / water heater have been a lifesaver. Powering the control boards / fans with a generator (or even UPS in a pinch) is a lot simpler proposition than trying to generate enough power to heat my house, water, and food with resistive heating.
- UncleMeat 4y ago
  Gas furnaces don't work without power by default. The fan that pushes the hot air through your house won't work. Many gas furnaces have electrically powered safety features that won't allow the furnace to function if the power is out.
  - nucleardog 4y ago
    Covered that already: > Powering the control boards / fans with a generator (or even UPS in a pinch) is a lot simpler proposition than trying to generate enough power to heat my house, water, and food with resistive heating. My furnace runs on 120V power pulling ~8A when running. That's ~1kW. Comparable sized resistive heating would use about 9kW. 1kW for a few hours a day is easy to provide through a cheap generator, a couple small solar panels and a single marine battery, or apparently a ~$220 wind turbine I can order on Amazon that can output up to 1200W. 9kW is a whole different ball game. And that's just heating. My stove uses in the order of single-digit watts for seconds at a time. It can also just be lit with a match without power. My water heater does run a small exhaust fan while it's heating, but again... we're talking hundreds of watts instead of kilowatts. Yes, all these options pretty much still need power, but the smaller power requirements are a hell of a lot easier to provide than the power needed for resistive electric heating. I could run my water heater off of a desktop UPS.
SV_BubbleTime 4y ago
> Heat pumps are about 250-300% efficient. Sure. When we’re talking about the temperature band they work in. Once it hits 0C the efficiency is very low, and by -10C is almost doing nothing at all. At that point you have two things happening… 1. You are using electricity to warm your coils outside to keep frost and snow off them. 2. You are using drastically inefficient heat for your home. 200-300% in their band under ideal conditions, maybe. Seems like cherry picking.
- wtallis 4y ago
  200-300% efficient is what a very bad heat pump would do under ideal conditions. Good heat pumps have a coefficient of performance above 3 for temperatures above freezing (and above 4 for only mildly chilly outdoor temperatures), and still well above 2 at temperatures around 15°F/-10°C. My 10 year old apartment has a heat pump rated for a CoP of 2.3 at a temperature of 17°F/-8°C, which is actually below the record low outdoor temperature for this area. This isn't some exotic new equipment or a model designed for cold climates; it's what was cheap and mainstream a decade ago.
  - SV_BubbleTime 4y ago
    Cool. But, how much of the US gets below 17F? I think it’s a lot.
    - wtallis 4y ago
      17°F isn't the point at which my heat pump stops working. It's just the lower temperature conventionally used as a point of comparison on the spec sheets for such devices. There's another column on the spec sheet for 47°F (where my heat pump model is listed as having a CoP of 3.6). And as for the question about colder climates: it's not a matter of whether an area can occasionally experience temperatures below eg. 17°F. What matters is whether you'll ever experience daily highs that are cold enough to prevent heating the house.
      - 8note 4y ago
nonethewiser 4y ago
> And of course more rural places would also feature wood stoves as a backup. Sure, but that’s worse than natural gas
achates 4y ago
Now multiply that by the efficiency of a gas power plant. I'm so glad I swapped out my heat pump for gas heat. My power bill went down and the house is much more comfortable.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

nucleardog 4y ago

> And of course resistive heating doesn't stop working. Well except… > Of course relative to NY, they do have a more reliable power grid Okay, yeah. That would pretty much be my concern. Having been without power for over two weeks in the past 12 months the propane tanks and propane stove / furnace / water heater have been a lifesaver. Powering the control boards / fans with a generator (or even UPS in a pinch) is a lot simpler proposition than trying to generate enough power to heat my house, water, and food with resistive heating.

UncleMeat 4y ago
Gas furnaces don't work without power by default. The fan that pushes the hot air through your house won't work. Many gas furnaces have electrically powered safety features that won't allow the furnace to function if the power is out.
- nucleardog 4y ago
  Covered that already: > Powering the control boards / fans with a generator (or even UPS in a pinch) is a lot simpler proposition than trying to generate enough power to heat my house, water, and food with resistive heating. My furnace runs on 120V power pulling ~8A when running. That's ~1kW. Comparable sized resistive heating would use about 9kW. 1kW for a few hours a day is easy to provide through a cheap generator, a couple small solar panels and a single marine battery, or apparently a ~$220 wind turbine I can order on Amazon that can output up to 1200W. 9kW is a whole different ball game. And that's just heating. My stove uses in the order of single-digit watts for seconds at a time. It can also just be lit with a match without power. My water heater does run a small exhaust fan while it's heating, but again... we're talking hundreds of watts instead of kilowatts. Yes, all these options pretty much still need power, but the smaller power requirements are a hell of a lot easier to provide than the power needed for resistive electric heating. I could run my water heater off of a desktop UPS.

SV_BubbleTime 4y ago

> Heat pumps are about 250-300% efficient. Sure. When we’re talking about the temperature band they work in. Once it hits 0C the efficiency is very low, and by -10C is almost doing nothing at all. At that point you have two things happening… 1. You are using electricity to warm your coils outside to keep frost and snow off them. 2. You are using drastically inefficient heat for your home. 200-300% in their band under ideal conditions, maybe. Seems like cherry picking.

wtallis 4y ago
200-300% efficient is what a very bad heat pump would do under ideal conditions. Good heat pumps have a coefficient of performance above 3 for temperatures above freezing (and above 4 for only mildly chilly outdoor temperatures), and still well above 2 at temperatures around 15°F/-10°C. My 10 year old apartment has a heat pump rated for a CoP of 2.3 at a temperature of 17°F/-8°C, which is actually below the record low outdoor temperature for this area. This isn't some exotic new equipment or a model designed for cold climates; it's what was cheap and mainstream a decade ago.
- SV_BubbleTime 4y ago
  Cool. But, how much of the US gets below 17F? I think it’s a lot.
  - wtallis 4y ago
    17°F isn't the point at which my heat pump stops working. It's just the lower temperature conventionally used as a point of comparison on the spec sheets for such devices. There's another column on the spec sheet for 47°F (where my heat pump model is listed as having a CoP of 3.6). And as for the question about colder climates: it's not a matter of whether an area can occasionally experience temperatures below eg. 17°F. What matters is whether you'll ever experience daily highs that are cold enough to prevent heating the house.
    - 8note 4y ago

nonethewiser 4y ago

> And of course more rural places would also feature wood stoves as a backup. Sure, but that’s worse than natural gas

achates 4y ago

Now multiply that by the efficiency of a gas power plant. I'm so glad I swapped out my heat pump for gas heat. My power bill went down and the house is much more comfortable.