7 ms·

If only the people who want sperm donations can stop being so selective about what sort of kid they want, we would have so much more genetic variation among don

If only the people who want sperm donations can stop being so selective about what sort of kid they want, we would have so much more genetic variation among donors. Instead of a small number of donors, maybe every male should donate sperm like it's jury duty or something...

foldr 3y ago
Indeed. This whole thing is just eugenics through the back door. The court should be aware that there are quite a number of historical examples of men having hundreds and even possibly thousands of children. This isn't any kind of threat to human genetic diversity worth worrying about (however objectionable the actions of the men in question might have been). If there is a reason to ban sperm donors from donating more than n samples, it's not this. I do find the idea of someone fathering that many children inherently weird and creepy. It appears that this person is also accused of misleading the women who received the donations, which is obviously wrong in itself. There's probably all kinds of reasons to throw the book at this particular individual. I just wish the bullshit eugenic arguments could be left out of it.
- kevviiinn 3y ago
  It may not be a threat to the genetic diversity of humans at large but when there are so many siblings in a local area who don't know they are siblings then the chance of recessive genetic disorders greatly increases
  - epicureanideal 3y ago
    Seems like the sibling network they discuss where people can become aware of who's related to them would solve that problem. What are the odds that 500 out of 5 million people would match with each other?
    - anonymouskimmer 3y ago
      It happens[1]. In part because people tend to find those who look similar to themselves most attractive[2]. There is a countering instinct to be repulsed by the idea of sex with people one was raised with[2], but this countering instinct doesn't happen if one wasn't raised with a family member. 1 - https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1311238/Brother-sister-didnt-know-related-marry--despite-knowing-union-illegal.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1311238/Brother-sis... > The couple, who hailed from different towns, about 100 miles apart, were both out with friends when they met in a nightclub in a third town several years ago. > So strong was their mutual attraction that just one week after meeting, they both felt they had known each other for a lifetime. 2 - https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-mysteries-love/201505/are-we-attracted-people-who-look-us https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-mysteries-love/2...
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - anonymouskimmer 3y ago
      > Seems like the sibling network they discuss where people can become aware of who's related to them would solve that problem. I'll also mention that such a sibling network can actually cause the problem. https://au.news.yahoo.com/half-siblings-with-two-children-together-fighting-for-right-to-marry-000207408.html https://au.news.yahoo.com/half-siblings-with-two-children-to... > After tracking down her half-brother on Facebook, Ms Parra eventually met Mr Parra and the pair felt attracted to one another. "We didn't want to realise it, we were angry with ourselves because it was hard to admit and break that taboo: we are siblings even though we didn't feel that way." > After just a few days, the half-siblings felt they couldn't carry on without seeing each other again. "Imagine liking a girl and, for a moral reason, being forbidden to be with her. It's really hard to deal with," Mr Parra declared.
  - akira2501 3y ago
    They know precisely how they were parented and that the actual identity of one of their parents is technically unknown. These people will have to take a single additional genetic testing step in family planning to avoid the problem.
    - kevviiinn 3y ago
      You seem to be making a big assumption, do all recipients of sperm donors explain that to their children? I'm highly skeptical People shouldn't have to go the route of genetic testing, which apparently has serious privacy implications, just to have kids
      - akira2501 3y ago
        > do all recipients of sperm donors explain that to their children? I don't have children, so my question may come across as callous, but how would you not? Aside from the genetic relatives issue there are a host of other medical issues and complications that arise from not having the full identity of the other parent. Considering that this particular part of the issue that can only arise in adulthood, I was sort of assuming that you'd almost certainly explain the situation to them by that point.
        anonymouskimmer 3y ago
        You're ignoring that many people don't want to rock the boat. And anytime you tell a child that the person they thought was their daddy, isn't, you're rocking the boat. Regardless of the age of the child. If this is an un-partnered mother and her children, then sure, much less excuse to not tell the kid, and much less reason to not tell them. But for partnered couples there's an inherent friction built in.
        kevviiinn 3y ago
        You're again making a huge assumption, that which assumes that all people who have children are so responsible or have as much forethought
    - 3y ago
  - foldr 3y ago
    >then the chance of recessive genetic disorders greatly increases It will increase somewhat, but not 'greatly'. At least, I would be interested to see some actual data on this for the case of the children of half siblings. For cousins the additional risk is very small: https://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/03/health/no-genetic-reason-to-discourage-cousin-marriage-study-finds.html https://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/03/health/no-genetic-reason-...
- amiga386 3y ago
  He's fathering a lot of children in a restricted geographic area, and he's not making clear to prospective mothers that he's doing this. While incest is legal in the Netherlands, unintended inbreeding and genetic disorders are not good outcomes for a sperm donation service and so they have guardrails. He's well over the guardrails.
  - foldr 3y ago
    I'm not sure that the risk of birth defects in the children of half-siblings is actually that high. You have to compare it to the risk when e.g. the couple is older, or one of them has a genetic disorder, one of them is obsese... There are lots of things than can increase the risk of birth defects. People often wildly overestimate the actual risks of 'inbreeding' because their real objection is either an ethical one or a simple gross out reaction. That is, they're not making an informed estimate of the actual risks and then concluding that these are unacceptably high; they're just searching for a more objective justification for their gut reaction. Unfortunately, the objective justification that most people reach for (the risk of birth defects) is a very steep slippery slope to eugenics. Once you admit the principle that a higher than average risk of birth defects is sufficient reason for a couple to be legally prohibited from having children, then you are basically there.
    - amiga386 3y ago
      > they're not making an informed estimate of the actual risks "Dutch clinical guidelines state that a donor should not father more than 25 children in 12 families." Clinicians have already made the informed estimate for me. 500-600 children with the same parent is a more than the recommended 25. > a couple to be legally prohibited There are no couples involved here. There's this donor, a clinic with an ethics board, and their clients. The court are not even looking in the area you're so concerned about, and nobody is thinking of making any laws in that area. Incest is not illegal in the Netherlands, so have it away with your mother/father/sister/brother if it makes you happy. But if you open a fertility clinic, I would hope that you adhere to clinical best practises, including reducing the risk of inadvertent inbreeding.
lockhouse 3y ago
Either scenario sounds very dystopian to me.
nashashmi 3y ago
Adoptive parents are presented with such limited options. The top ten options are given to them only. Usually it’s intelligence, looks, and lack of heredity illnesses
BizarreByte 3y ago
> maybe every male should donate sperm like it's jury duty or something... I would prefer to not be forced by the government to give up bodily fluids so that people can have children. This is a bad idea.
- kneebonian 3y ago
  Well, I, uh... I... I... first became aware of it, Mandrake, during the physical act of love. Yes, a uh, a profound sense of fatigue... a feeling of emptiness followed. Luckily I... I was able to interpret these feelings correctly. Loss of essence. I can assure you it has not recurred, Mandrake. Women uh... women sense my power and they seek the life essence. I, uh... I do not avoid women, Mandrake. But I... I do deny them my essence.
  - shrimp_emoji 3y ago
    https://youtu.be/0he-LZNzVg0?t=22 https://youtu.be/0he-LZNzVg0?t=22
11235813213455 3y ago
If only the people who want sperm donations can stop
collegeburner 3y ago
thats silly 1. some traits are objectively better. i dont like forced eugenics but choosing better ones can help 2. u cant force someone to sire children. thats immoral

foldr 3y ago

Indeed. This whole thing is just eugenics through the back door. The court should be aware that there are quite a number of historical examples of men having hundreds and even possibly thousands of children. This isn't any kind of threat to human genetic diversity worth worrying about (however objectionable the actions of the men in question might have been). If there is a reason to ban sperm donors from donating more than n samples, it's not this. I do find the idea of someone fathering that many children inherently weird and creepy. It appears that this person is also accused of misleading the women who received the donations, which is obviously wrong in itself. There's probably all kinds of reasons to throw the book at this particular individual. I just wish the bullshit eugenic arguments could be left out of it.

kevviiinn 3y ago
It may not be a threat to the genetic diversity of humans at large but when there are so many siblings in a local area who don't know they are siblings then the chance of recessive genetic disorders greatly increases
- epicureanideal 3y ago
  Seems like the sibling network they discuss where people can become aware of who's related to them would solve that problem. What are the odds that 500 out of 5 million people would match with each other?
  - anonymouskimmer 3y ago
    It happens[1]. In part because people tend to find those who look similar to themselves most attractive[2]. There is a countering instinct to be repulsed by the idea of sex with people one was raised with[2], but this countering instinct doesn't happen if one wasn't raised with a family member. 1 - https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1311238/Brother-sister-didnt-know-related-marry--despite-knowing-union-illegal.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1311238/Brother-sis... > The couple, who hailed from different towns, about 100 miles apart, were both out with friends when they met in a nightclub in a third town several years ago. > So strong was their mutual attraction that just one week after meeting, they both felt they had known each other for a lifetime. 2 - https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-mysteries-love/201505/are-we-attracted-people-who-look-us https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-mysteries-love/2...
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - anonymouskimmer 3y ago
    > Seems like the sibling network they discuss where people can become aware of who's related to them would solve that problem. I'll also mention that such a sibling network can actually cause the problem. https://au.news.yahoo.com/half-siblings-with-two-children-together-fighting-for-right-to-marry-000207408.html https://au.news.yahoo.com/half-siblings-with-two-children-to... > After tracking down her half-brother on Facebook, Ms Parra eventually met Mr Parra and the pair felt attracted to one another. "We didn't want to realise it, we were angry with ourselves because it was hard to admit and break that taboo: we are siblings even though we didn't feel that way." > After just a few days, the half-siblings felt they couldn't carry on without seeing each other again. "Imagine liking a girl and, for a moral reason, being forbidden to be with her. It's really hard to deal with," Mr Parra declared.
- akira2501 3y ago
  They know precisely how they were parented and that the actual identity of one of their parents is technically unknown. These people will have to take a single additional genetic testing step in family planning to avoid the problem.
  - kevviiinn 3y ago
    You seem to be making a big assumption, do all recipients of sperm donors explain that to their children? I'm highly skeptical People shouldn't have to go the route of genetic testing, which apparently has serious privacy implications, just to have kids
    - akira2501 3y ago
      > do all recipients of sperm donors explain that to their children? I don't have children, so my question may come across as callous, but how would you not? Aside from the genetic relatives issue there are a host of other medical issues and complications that arise from not having the full identity of the other parent. Considering that this particular part of the issue that can only arise in adulthood, I was sort of assuming that you'd almost certainly explain the situation to them by that point.
      - anonymouskimmer 3y ago
        You're ignoring that many people don't want to rock the boat. And anytime you tell a child that the person they thought was their daddy, isn't, you're rocking the boat. Regardless of the age of the child. If this is an un-partnered mother and her children, then sure, much less excuse to not tell the kid, and much less reason to not tell them. But for partnered couples there's an inherent friction built in.
      - kevviiinn 3y ago
        You're again making a huge assumption, that which assumes that all people who have children are so responsible or have as much forethought
  - 3y ago
- foldr 3y ago
  >then the chance of recessive genetic disorders greatly increases It will increase somewhat, but not 'greatly'. At least, I would be interested to see some actual data on this for the case of the children of half siblings. For cousins the additional risk is very small: https://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/03/health/no-genetic-reason-to-discourage-cousin-marriage-study-finds.html https://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/03/health/no-genetic-reason-...
amiga386 3y ago
He's fathering a lot of children in a restricted geographic area, and he's not making clear to prospective mothers that he's doing this. While incest is legal in the Netherlands, unintended inbreeding and genetic disorders are not good outcomes for a sperm donation service and so they have guardrails. He's well over the guardrails.
- foldr 3y ago
  I'm not sure that the risk of birth defects in the children of half-siblings is actually that high. You have to compare it to the risk when e.g. the couple is older, or one of them has a genetic disorder, one of them is obsese... There are lots of things than can increase the risk of birth defects. People often wildly overestimate the actual risks of 'inbreeding' because their real objection is either an ethical one or a simple gross out reaction. That is, they're not making an informed estimate of the actual risks and then concluding that these are unacceptably high; they're just searching for a more objective justification for their gut reaction. Unfortunately, the objective justification that most people reach for (the risk of birth defects) is a very steep slippery slope to eugenics. Once you admit the principle that a higher than average risk of birth defects is sufficient reason for a couple to be legally prohibited from having children, then you are basically there.
  - amiga386 3y ago
    > they're not making an informed estimate of the actual risks "Dutch clinical guidelines state that a donor should not father more than 25 children in 12 families." Clinicians have already made the informed estimate for me. 500-600 children with the same parent is a more than the recommended 25. > a couple to be legally prohibited There are no couples involved here. There's this donor, a clinic with an ethics board, and their clients. The court are not even looking in the area you're so concerned about, and nobody is thinking of making any laws in that area. Incest is not illegal in the Netherlands, so have it away with your mother/father/sister/brother if it makes you happy. But if you open a fertility clinic, I would hope that you adhere to clinical best practises, including reducing the risk of inadvertent inbreeding.

lockhouse 3y ago

Either scenario sounds very dystopian to me.

nashashmi 3y ago

Adoptive parents are presented with such limited options. The top ten options are given to them only. Usually it’s intelligence, looks, and lack of heredity illnesses

BizarreByte 3y ago

> maybe every male should donate sperm like it's jury duty or something... I would prefer to not be forced by the government to give up bodily fluids so that people can have children. This is a bad idea.

kneebonian 3y ago
Well, I, uh... I... I... first became aware of it, Mandrake, during the physical act of love. Yes, a uh, a profound sense of fatigue... a feeling of emptiness followed. Luckily I... I was able to interpret these feelings correctly. Loss of essence. I can assure you it has not recurred, Mandrake. Women uh... women sense my power and they seek the life essence. I, uh... I do not avoid women, Mandrake. But I... I do deny them my essence.
- shrimp_emoji 3y ago
  https://youtu.be/0he-LZNzVg0?t=22 https://youtu.be/0he-LZNzVg0?t=22

11235813213455 3y ago

If only the people who want sperm donations can stop

collegeburner 3y ago

thats silly 1. some traits are objectively better. i dont like forced eugenics but choosing better ones can help 2. u cant force someone to sire children. thats immoral