6 ms·
New York set to ban gas furnaces, stoves in new buildings
- Spooky23 4y agoI’m in favor of doing this, but not in favor of the law. It’s stupid policy that’s going to invigorate the MAGA movement in New York. New York is dominated by NYC metro for issues like this, and the people lobbying for these polices don’t know that Utica, Tupper Lake or Binghamton exist. This year there was a blizzard that pummeled the Buffalo region with several feet of snow. Some folks lost power for 3 weeks. What are people supposed to do without cooking gas, heat or hot water? Heat pumps are getting better, but need supplementation with space heaters in the extreme cold of winter.
- RC_ITR 4y agoThe current governor is from the Buffalo metro area. Wrong time to make this claim.
- atdrummond 4y agoThe Governor’s city of record is pretty insignificant. The Albany powerbrokers are almost all from NYC and the surrounding communities and the moneyed interests are most certainly from the City. Given that is who she has to play ball with, it makes sense policies would reflect the biases of the city, not the Governor’s home city.
- RC_ITR 4y agoThen that’s just representative democracy at work? If the majority of people in New York are from NYC, then that’s who she must consider. I guess the trade is orchard park gets a new stadium.
- nonethewiser 4y ago_Representative_ democracy is very specifically NOT majority rule.
- RC_ITR 4y ago?? The majority of the people elect the majority of the representatives?
- Spooky23 4y agoYou don’t know anything about NY politics. Thats irrelevant. The previous governor was from NYC and Westchester, and shutdown the primary source of base-load electricity for that region. The plan here is that lots of solar farms will replace actual farms, which is deeply unpopular in rural areas and will kill the tax base, as localities won’t be able to set assessments independently. The other thing is to import more electricity from Hydro Quebec. (Which is a weird environmentalist play) I think heat pumps are great, and invested in one myself. But inflicting needless pain in millions of people is, like I said, bad public policy. And the counter reaction will roll this back and have a worse net impact on the State.
- RC_ITR 4y agoYou’re or supposed to comment like that on here. I’m from rural Upstate NY fwiw. What about you?
- vladgur 4y agoI’m in CA and the funny thing is that my gas furnace would not work without power that is used to run fans pushing heated air through the house. It’s a safety feature
- ghaff 4y agoMy gas (propane) cooktop works but you're not "supposed" to use it if power is out because it won't automatically reignite if the flame goes out. (Doesn't really matter as I have all sorts of camping backup I can use but I'm probably not supposed to use those indoors either.) I don't live in New York but I should probably get the propane fireplace insert I've been meaning to get before we ban it too.
- jhoechtl 4y agoYou can light the pilot flame with a match.
- ghaff 4y agoOf course (or a lighter). Which is what I do if my power is out. However, the safety instruction "supposed not to use" is because not everyone will keep their eye on the burner and may go off and do something else if something is simmering on the stove.
- cronix 4y agoYes, but the gas fireplace sure came in handy.
- nonethewiser 4y ago> I’m in favor of doing this, but not in favor of the law. It’s stupid policy that’s going to invigorate the MAGA movement in New York. It should invigorate a lot more than the 38% of New Yorkers that voted for Trump
- eachro 4y agoIf this makes it easier to build new buildings/housing, I'm all for it.
- HideousKojima 4y agoNope, it'll make it harder and more expensive
- snarf21 4y agoGenuinely curious: how so?
- jstanley 4y agoHow could banning something make it easier to do something? You already had the option not to do it, now you no longer have the option. It can only be neutral or worse.
- Thorrez 4y agoI mostly agree, but there are some slight reasons that could contribute to making it easier: * It could improve the economy of scale for electric, with more supply chains and installers getting used to it, reducing price. * It removes the paradox of choice, so there's more time for building and less time wasted making a decision.
- swexbe 4y agoDeveloper incentives often don't the buyer's. Leaky pipes can be a nightmare to maintain but the developer obviously doesn't care.
- dragonwriter 4y agoGas hookups not being a practical requirement makes building new homes easier. Gas being prohibited makes it no longer a feature developers feel is needed to be competitive with other new buildings competing in the same local market, making it no longer a practical requirement.
- micromacrofoot 4y agogood! the number of active leaks in old cities is astounding, thousands in some cases… not to mention the impact on indoor air quality… it’s time to start moving on
- cronix 4y agoWouldn't it do more overall good to fix the leaks, which will still exist? They're not banning gas, they're banning new appliances and builds, which won't alleviate any of the existing problems at all. The bad air quality is due to leaks, which are pretty close to non-existent in new builds with new equipment. It's the old equipment and old pipes where the problem really is. Fix them?
- voisin 4y agoEventually existing gas appliances will be replaced and if only electric is available the inventory will shift. Just like gas cars to EVs.
- bradlys 4y agoWhy add more buildings that will eventually leak? You have to stop leaks from being made in the first place.
- micromacrofoot 4y agono because we obviously can’t keep up with the infrastructure, we need to gradually remove it and stop adding more
- local_crmdgeon 4y agoAgreed. Note that most of these are in older cities with old gas plumbing: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=natural+gas+house+explosion&t=osx&iar=news&ia=news https://duckduckgo.com/?q=natural+gas+house+explosion&t=osx&... This isn't a rare occurrence.
- GenerWork 4y agoIf electric stoves are so much better than gas stoves, why do the gas stoves have to be banned?
- RC_ITR 4y agoThis is not a bill about cooking efficiency. It’s about health. Asbestos outperforms plaster in burn tests.
- kevin_thibedeau 4y agoThen they should regulate health with performance specifications on vent hoods and banning new 80% furnaces. This is just performative governance without doing meaningful work.
- voisin 4y agoI recall reading that even those gas stoves that have acceptable performance in certification tests do not perform to spec in the real world. I think it may have been consumer reports in conjunction with a university - they just stopped testing because not a single one in a single setting performed as advertised. The performative governance was creating standards with no repercussions for not meeting the standards in the real world. The result is horrible indoor air quality linked to a range of health issues, particularly for children.
- purple_ferret 4y agoBecause you can throw in a dirt cheap gas stove in a new build pretty easily.
- swimorsinka 4y agoUgh, I think this is a terrible idea for heating. I've installed 2 Mitsubishi hyper heat pumps in the past 5 years with 3 indoor heads totaling ~48,000 BTUs of heat capacity. I don't think people understand how much more expensive heat pumps are than a traditional natural gas furnace. I paid $25,000, and that was 5 years ago. This is for a small house of 1500 square feet. If you had a larger 3 or 4,000 square foot house, you can double or triple that price. In contrast, I know you can get a 250,000 BTU gas boiler for ~$20,000 with install. Plus, electricity is still way more expensive than gas, even with the price shocks over the past year and even with the high efficiency of modern heat pumps. And it's not that green, given that you lose ~7% in transmission, and usually it's coming from a coal or natural gas plant. If you had solar to offset some of it, that would be great, but usually there isn't enough sun in the winter to account for all of your heating needs, at least without a gigantic array. I think this is pretty impractical and misguided. I've tried to be green, but next time I buy a house, I'm going to try to go back to a gas furnace.
- rjdagost 4y agoThen there's the question of how the electric grid will sustain this significant new increase in demand. As with mandates banning gas cars, the grid supply and stability is always regarded as a mere detail to be sorted out later.
- pg_bot 4y agoHmm you should've only needed a 3 ton unit for that amount of square footage and those cost about 2-5k. Was there some other kind of work that needed to be done that you aren't mentioning? You should've seen prices around 8k for the unit plus installation.
- swimorsinka 4y agoYou might be thinking for the non hyper heat modules. The ones I’ve got still heat down to -13 F. I remember thinking the same when I was originally pricing out the units. But when you actually get them through a reputable installer with a warranty, that roughly doubled the price. I quoted 3 installers at the time and they all came in at roughly the same price. I started with a 30,000 BTU unit in 2 of the bedrooms and then added another 18,000 BTU unit later. My house is a split level which makes it a huge pain to heat. The price of the first units was ~$15,000 and the second one was ~$10,000. Nothing special as part of the installs.
- Kim_Bruning 4y agoMeanwhile, in nw europe, there are long waiting lists for qualified technicians to remove/replace/ or at least supplement gas stoves, gas heaters etc. voluntarily. (this due to the European natural gas situation of course)
- glitchinc 4y agoWhy not properly educate the population on why electric stoves should be preferred over alternative stoves? Why not incentivize buyers to buy electric stoves (e.g., tax credits) or incentivize OEMs to lower the cost of electric stoves? As someone who’s house is intentionally and entirely designed around the premise that we lose mains power on a routine basis due to poor infrastructure and challenging environment (a mountain with dense forest), and wish to have a means for cooking food indoors without electricity, I have a propane stove. It is the only viable option as far as I am concerned, and as such, I am willing to pay a premium for one if I need to replace the unit I have. But if I can’t get a replacement propane stove in the future, what am I supposed to do? Overhaul my house at my own expense? Pay the electric company the multiple millions of dollars it would take to modernize their infrastructure to make an electric stove a viable option? Shifting that much burden onto someone like me is absurd, as is this ban. There are numerous other ways to address the problem that the ban aims to solve. Bans are rarely—if ever—good solutions, and should only ever be used as a measure of last resort. The situation at hand is far from one of last resort. But apparently the US is fully mired in the unfortunate “bans are the best way to score political points” phase of its history… one that I think we’d all be best served to put behind us quickly.
- Thorrez 4y agoA tax would be better than a ban. The tax can increase every year. And the money from the tax could be redirected to help people transition to electric. The downside of a tax is it's harder to implement, so there will be inefficiency in the system. A ban is easy.
- bradlys 4y agoA tax would also affect old homes. This proposal only affects new homes. It's really a slow phaseout. People are getting upset over nothing. You're not all buying new homes anyway.
- glitchinc 4y agoThe long term effect of such legislation, especially if replicated in other jurisdictions, is that OEMs will cease to manufacture LNG/LP appliances because of lack of demand. If OEMs no longer sell LNG/LP appliances, vendors that make LNG/LP components (burners, orifices, combustion chambers, etc.) stop making them. Over time, appliances become unserviceable. Then consumers must purchase electric appliances, even if they are not a viable option—because they are the only option. You are correct; there is no cause for immediate concern for existing appliances and existing residences. But over time, only electric appliances (and parts) will be available for purchase, and that is precisely the intent. Just as California emissions laws generally set the standard for automobiles that are available for purchase in the US, this legislation will have far reaching affects across the country.
- victorbstan 4y agoNatural gas is cheaper than electricity.
- alkonaut 4y agoIf one has negative externalities and the other doesn’t and yet the bad one is cheaper, then taxes aren’t applied right.
- timbit42 4y agoNot where I live. Electricity here is 8.7 cents per kWh. It blows my mind how expensive electricity is in most of the US. These places are doing something different.
- nonethewiser 4y agoWhen will people learn that electric is not analogous to gas? My guess is never the way things are going. Swapping electric for gas could theoretically increase emissions. In fact, the increased use of natural gas account for most of the US’s recent emissions gains.
- speeder 4y agoI wonder how long this policy will last when builders figure out they can market new homes as resilient to power loss because they have a diesel generator connected to the heaters and stoves... Yay, no more burning gas for heat, let's burn diesel for it instead! Much safer and pollute less!
- sp332 4y agoUsing a generator when the power is out is probably still healthier than burning gas in your kitchen on a regular basis.
- nonethewiser 4y agoNo one should prefer electricity over natural gas before knowing how the electricity is generated. People who push electric but don’t address this are either stupid or think you are stupid. I did some digging and found 60% of NYS electricity is generated from natural gas. 25% from nuclear. https://www.eia.gov/state/analysis.php?sid=NY https://www.eia.gov/state/analysis.php?sid=NY NYS has just about the cleanest mix in the US.
- sp332 4y agoSo it's much cleaner then.
- dado3212 4y agoIt’s easier to decarbonize energy generation than it is to retrofit every house in America. If you electrify everything the decarbonization will follow.
- nonethewiser 4y agoRegardless, using electricity isn’t inherently clean. It’s a non sensical claim - electricity doesn’t have the capacity to be clean or dirty. It’s entirely dependent on how it was generated.
- timbit42 4y agoHow much natural gas is generated from solar panels, windmills or hydro-electric dams?
- alkonaut 4y agoGood. But make sure people can get good electricity for their homes. Can’t have buildings swap gas heating for heat pumps run on coal energy. As for the cost of heat pumps and electricity: it’s not expensive. My new pump that heats my whole home (through radiators and in-floor water circuits) plus contains a large hot water tank cost $6k and will last 15 years or so. It has a COP of about 3 and I pay around 0.10 per kWh of electricity. Total electricity bill is around $2500 per year.
- timbit42 4y agoYes, but in spite of that, EVs running on coal-generated electricity are still cleaner than ICEVs. Homes heated by heat pumps running on coal-generated electricity should still be cleaner than heating by natural gas. This is because it is much easier to reduce emissions at the point of generation than at the point of use. Also, the use of coal is plummeting in the US.
- WirelessGigabit 4y agoWouldn't it be easier to install better range vents. Like the ones that actually blow stuff outside, not the ones built into the microwave that just 'move' air? Second to that, I absolutely hate cooking on an old-style electric range. It's just too slow and you have no control. Whereas with gas or induction it's much more instant.