8 ms·

V for Vendetta and the Rise of Anonymous - by Alan Moore

298 points by waitwhat 15y ago

Helianthus 15y ago
Interestingly, Alan Moore manages to miss the point and be spot-on at the same time. Nowhere does he seem to cotton to the nature of Anonymous, the disavowal of identity that accompanies taking up the mask: even though _he himself_ demonstrated the succession of V. But that's perhaps to be expected; the movie necessarily completed the image of the mask by making it abundantly clear that it is when the _group_ takes up the mask that the mask has power. You cannot punish one if you must punish all. At the same time, he is clearly in tune with the movement. "Today's response to similar oppressions seems to be one that is intelligent, constantly evolving and considerably more humane." All in all I read (if I may) V for Valediction from a man who thanks the movement for validating his work, and encourages the next generation just as an intellectual parent ought. And also like a good intellectual parent, he points to his own heritage... "Some ghosts never go away..."
- Hemospectrum 15y ago
  For what it's worth, he hasn't seen the movie. Any differences in message between his comic and the adaptation have either found him strictly via hearsay or are lost on him entirely.
  - icebraining 15y ago
    He hasn't seen the movie, but he did read its script: I've read the screenplay, so I know exactly what they're doing with it, and I'm not going to be going to see it. http://www.mtv.com/shared/movies/interviews/m/moore_alan_060315/ http://www.mtv.com/shared/movies/interviews/m/moore_alan_060...
- jacobolus 15y ago
  > Nowhere does he seem to cotton to the nature of Anonymous By “cotton” did you mean “caught on”?
  - ims 15y ago
    This is an idiom. http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=20010312 http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=20010312
  - lambda 15y ago
    http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=20010312 http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=20010312
  - dsr_ 15y ago
    Colloquial American English expression, used appropriately. "To cotton to" is to understand and possibly enjoy a phenomenon -- it's always a positive connotation.
  - zheng 15y ago
    Don't know why you're being down-voted, I've never heard the term either.
- anamax 15y ago
  > You cannot punish one if you must punish all. That's mindless twaddle. "if you must punish all" is never true. In fact, you usually don't want to punish all. And, you can always punish one.
kqr2 15y ago
Obligatory quote from the movie: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0434409/quotes?qt=qt0450655 http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0434409/quotes?qt=qt0450655 There are of course those who do not want us to speak. I suspect even now, orders are being shouted into telephones, and men with guns will soon be on their way. Why? Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. I know why you did it. I know you were afraid. Who wouldn't be? War, terror, disease. There were a myriad of problems which conspired to corrupt your reason and rob you of your common sense. Fear got the best of you, and in your panic you turned to the now high chancellor, Adam Sutler. He promised you order, he promised you peace, and all he demanded in return was your silent, obedient consent.
- arethuza 15y ago
  As an extremely unpleasant man once said: "...voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country." He was wrong about just about everything else, but in this one statement I fear he may have told the truth.
  - Helianthus 15y ago
    It is all too easy to pretend that people have no say in the actions of their commonwealth, and much too difficult to believe that patriotism, pacifism, idealism, and conservatism each have something important to say. I am unimpressed with your cynicism.
bad_user 15y ago
Btw, I'm a Romanian and tomorrow I'll also be joining the protest. I'm in the process of co-opting some of my neighbors. Please do so too.
cicloid 15y ago
Who has the copyright on the Guy Fawkes masks? UPDATE: Forget it, the design belongs to Time Warner.
- accountoftheday 15y ago
  mine has a label inside indicating it was made under license from the movie rights owners.
  - rbanffy 15y ago
    Obviously, the moral thing is to make your own. ;-) Mass-production, however, has some interesting advantages. It's harder to trace it back to its owner, for instance.
    - accountoftheday 15y ago
      quite the opposite. it makes it rather easy to cross-reference amazon orders of said mask with politically active online accounts via isp records to identify suitable candidates for future re-education internment camps on the topic of IP and state rights. could be done using the ironically libertarian-funded Palantir, i suppose.
      - sequoia 15y ago
        I'm as tinfoily as the next guy, but I don't think buying a mask on amazon is going to land you in a reeducation camp. Wearing a mask hardly makes one a Ted Kaczynski.
        dfxm12 15y ago
        The point is if you DO turn out to be a Ted Kaczynski, having these kinds of purchase records on file make it easier to find you.
      - pyre 15y ago
        You could also purchase it locally with cash at a costume/mask shop...
wingo 15y ago
Ah, Alan Moore. I love the man. Here's a lovely interview with him, from "Mythmakers and Lawbreakers", a work on anarchist fiction writers: http://www.birdsbeforethestorm.net/2009/02/mythmakers-lawbreakers-alan-moore-on-anarchism/ http://www.birdsbeforethestorm.net/2009/02/mythmakers-lawbre... The book: http://www.birdsbeforethestorm.net/mmlb/ http://www.birdsbeforethestorm.net/mmlb/ Some of the interviews are better than others, but the Ursula K. Le Guin and Alan Moore ones really stood out for me.
- gaelian 15y ago
  I don't think it's overstating things to say that Moore's influence changed the face of the comic industry forever (no pun intended). The man is a true visionary, pushing the boundary of whatever medium he chooses. I look forward to reading his novels. Here is another good and recent interview: http://www.honestpublishing.com/news/honest-alan-moore-interview-part-1-publishing-and-kindle/ http://www.honestpublishing.com/news/honest-alan-moore-inter...
  - astrange 15y ago
    > I don't think it's overstating things to say that Moore's influence changed the face of the comic industry forever (no pun intended). What, for the better or worse? The comic industry is in no state to be proud of; they sell at least 100 times less than they used to and their entire audience is 30 year old white men because they have no ability to attract new readers. That's the American-style comic industry; the Japanese one is doing well.
    - toyg 15y ago
      Moore et al. kept the industry relevant for more than they should have. VfV and Watchmen are a few of those works that keep selling 20 years later, while 99% of the US comic production is crap and gets forgotten after six months. The market is what it is because there are too few Moores and Ellises and Gaimans , and too many self-referential comic-fans-turned-writers.
    - gaelian 15y ago
joska 15y ago
Mob rule activism is so 1960's ....
KiwiCoder 15y ago
Tangential Alan Moore - Alternative thought for the day at http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_9669000/9669590.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_9669000/9669590....
paulhauggis 15y ago
Anonymous is a childish sudo-terrorist group that has thrown multiple digital temper-tantrums because they haven't gotten their way. Even if I support their views, I would never want to be associated with them.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- jbooth 15y ago
  Best to do nothing then, and be one of those who stood aside.
  - icebraining 15y ago
    Those are hardly the only two options.
  - paulhauggis 15y ago
    I would rather have my own group. That doesn't hide behind a computer screen.
- ben0x539 15y ago
  > I would never want to be associated with them. That's rather the idea of being anonymous.
- gee_totes 15y ago
  A terrorist group with the power of sudo is a scary thought. Obligatory XKCD: http://xkcd.com/149/ http://xkcd.com/149/
  - paulhauggis 15y ago
    Right. Because that's all they do. Let's see: 1) Stole from Symantec and released the code: https://thepiratebay.se/torrent/7014253 https://thepiratebay.se/torrent/7014253 2) stole from pcanywhere and released the code: http://www.zdnet.co.uk/news/security-threats/2012/02/07/anonymous-activists-release-pcanywhere-source-code-40094993/ http://www.zdnet.co.uk/news/security-threats/2012/02/07/anon... Funny thing is, Google does the same thing with the GPL (IE: "theft" of code): http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/8991.html http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/8991.html and the people here on HN want to crucify them. It's so easy to hide behind a handle/username online. It takes no balls or courage because you have little to no risk. The mere fact that they do this shows me that they aren't really serious about their views and are most likely anti-social kids (or adults with the maturity of kids). This is stuff that I would have enjoyed when I was 15.
imjoel 15y ago
It's hard for me to align myself with Anonymous because I really don't like how they give support to the ideas I agree with, but, man, it sure does look exciting from where I'm standing.
mindcrime 15y ago
The thing I find interesting / amusing about the "Guy Fawkes" masks from the movie, is the extent to which they have been embraced by at least 3 or 4 fairly different, even seemingly opposing, groups. Looking around, I've seen these masks associated with: 1. Radical libertarian / anti-government types 2. Tea Partiers 3. The OWS movement 4. Anonymous The moral of this story may just be that these groups have more in common that you would suspect at first blush.
- tvon 15y ago
  They're all opposed to how the government currently operates. I think that's something that most of the country agrees upon.
  - rhizome 15y ago
    But let's talk about birth-control.
    - etherael 15y ago
      Was this an attempt to illustrate "important issues" rather than promoting iconoclasm, or an attempt to say that wedge issues are what drives modern government and thus we shouldn't be paying attention to the man behind the curtain, but discussing the preselected moral issue dujour to keep us distracted and shoulders to the grindwheel rather than looking at the bigger picture? The latter doesn't much look worth of downvoting to me, in fact I'd go almost so far as to say it's amongst the most vexing problems of humanity at the moment.
      - rhizome 15y ago
        Thanks for actually replying. Yes, my point (such as it was) is that wedge issues distract from the real "supra-partisan" issues that affect citizens across party lines, like the immunity of bankers from prosecution, how much of a drain military expenditures are on the economy (and therefor quality of life) in the US, the TSA, US foreign policy as a stifle on travel opportunities, and so on. Oh, but let's talk about some religious people laying a turd of morality on the front page of every newspaper. Birth-control in church insurance? Such a pressing issue!
tripngroove 15y ago
Just saw an awesome documentary on Anonymous at the Slamdance Film Festival (Sundance's indie younger sibling). Interesting and well made. Would recommend it for anyone who is interested in Anonymous/Hacktivism. http://wearelegionthedocumentary.com/ http://wearelegionthedocumentary.com/
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
Interrobang 15y ago
"Our present financial ethos no longer even resembles conventional capitalism, which at least implies a brutal Darwinian free-for-all, however one-sided and unfair. Instead, we have a situation where the banks seem to be an untouchable monarchy beyond the reach of governmental restraint, much like the profligate court of Charles I." I couldn't agree more.

298 points by waitwhat 15y ago

Interestingly, Alan Moore manages to miss the point and be spot-on at the same time. Nowhere does he seem to cotton to the nature of Anonymous, the disavowal of identity that accompanies taking up the mask: even though _he himself_ demonstrated the succession of V. But that's perhaps to be expected; the movie necessarily completed the image of the mask by making it abundantly clear that it is when the _group_ takes up the mask that the mask has power. You cannot punish one if you must punish all. At the same time, he is clearly in tune with the movement. "Today's response to similar oppressions seems to be one that is intelligent, constantly evolving and considerably more humane." All in all I read (if I may) V for Valediction from a man who thanks the movement for validating his work, and encourages the next generation just as an intellectual parent ought. And also like a good intellectual parent, he points to his own heritage... "Some ghosts never go away..."

Hemospectrum 15y ago
For what it's worth, he hasn't seen the movie. Any differences in message between his comic and the adaptation have either found him strictly via hearsay or are lost on him entirely.
- icebraining 15y ago
  He hasn't seen the movie, but he did read its script: I've read the screenplay, so I know exactly what they're doing with it, and I'm not going to be going to see it. http://www.mtv.com/shared/movies/interviews/m/moore_alan_060315/ http://www.mtv.com/shared/movies/interviews/m/moore_alan_060...
jacobolus 15y ago
> Nowhere does he seem to cotton to the nature of Anonymous By “cotton” did you mean “caught on”?
- ims 15y ago
  This is an idiom. http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=20010312 http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=20010312
- lambda 15y ago
  http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=20010312 http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=20010312
- dsr_ 15y ago
  Colloquial American English expression, used appropriately. "To cotton to" is to understand and possibly enjoy a phenomenon -- it's always a positive connotation.
- zheng 15y ago
  Don't know why you're being down-voted, I've never heard the term either.
anamax 15y ago
> You cannot punish one if you must punish all. That's mindless twaddle. "if you must punish all" is never true. In fact, you usually don't want to punish all. And, you can always punish one.

kqr2 15y ago

Obligatory quote from the movie: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0434409/quotes?qt=qt0450655 http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0434409/quotes?qt=qt0450655 There are of course those who do not want us to speak. I suspect even now, orders are being shouted into telephones, and men with guns will soon be on their way. Why? Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. I know why you did it. I know you were afraid. Who wouldn't be? War, terror, disease. There were a myriad of problems which conspired to corrupt your reason and rob you of your common sense. Fear got the best of you, and in your panic you turned to the now high chancellor, Adam Sutler. He promised you order, he promised you peace, and all he demanded in return was your silent, obedient consent.

arethuza 15y ago
As an extremely unpleasant man once said: "...voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country." He was wrong about just about everything else, but in this one statement I fear he may have told the truth.
- Helianthus 15y ago
  It is all too easy to pretend that people have no say in the actions of their commonwealth, and much too difficult to believe that patriotism, pacifism, idealism, and conservatism each have something important to say. I am unimpressed with your cynicism.

bad_user 15y ago

Btw, I'm a Romanian and tomorrow I'll also be joining the protest. I'm in the process of co-opting some of my neighbors. Please do so too.

cicloid 15y ago

Who has the copyright on the Guy Fawkes masks? UPDATE: Forget it, the design belongs to Time Warner.

accountoftheday 15y ago
mine has a label inside indicating it was made under license from the movie rights owners.
- rbanffy 15y ago
  Obviously, the moral thing is to make your own. ;-) Mass-production, however, has some interesting advantages. It's harder to trace it back to its owner, for instance.
  - accountoftheday 15y ago
    quite the opposite. it makes it rather easy to cross-reference amazon orders of said mask with politically active online accounts via isp records to identify suitable candidates for future re-education internment camps on the topic of IP and state rights. could be done using the ironically libertarian-funded Palantir, i suppose.
    - sequoia 15y ago
      I'm as tinfoily as the next guy, but I don't think buying a mask on amazon is going to land you in a reeducation camp. Wearing a mask hardly makes one a Ted Kaczynski.
      - dfxm12 15y ago
        The point is if you DO turn out to be a Ted Kaczynski, having these kinds of purchase records on file make it easier to find you.
    - pyre 15y ago
      You could also purchase it locally with cash at a costume/mask shop...

wingo 15y ago

Ah, Alan Moore. I love the man. Here's a lovely interview with him, from "Mythmakers and Lawbreakers", a work on anarchist fiction writers: http://www.birdsbeforethestorm.net/2009/02/mythmakers-lawbreakers-alan-moore-on-anarchism/ http://www.birdsbeforethestorm.net/2009/02/mythmakers-lawbre... The book: http://www.birdsbeforethestorm.net/mmlb/ http://www.birdsbeforethestorm.net/mmlb/ Some of the interviews are better than others, but the Ursula K. Le Guin and Alan Moore ones really stood out for me.

gaelian 15y ago
I don't think it's overstating things to say that Moore's influence changed the face of the comic industry forever (no pun intended). The man is a true visionary, pushing the boundary of whatever medium he chooses. I look forward to reading his novels. Here is another good and recent interview: http://www.honestpublishing.com/news/honest-alan-moore-interview-part-1-publishing-and-kindle/ http://www.honestpublishing.com/news/honest-alan-moore-inter...
- astrange 15y ago
  > I don't think it's overstating things to say that Moore's influence changed the face of the comic industry forever (no pun intended). What, for the better or worse? The comic industry is in no state to be proud of; they sell at least 100 times less than they used to and their entire audience is 30 year old white men because they have no ability to attract new readers. That's the American-style comic industry; the Japanese one is doing well.
  - toyg 15y ago
    Moore et al. kept the industry relevant for more than they should have. VfV and Watchmen are a few of those works that keep selling 20 years later, while 99% of the US comic production is crap and gets forgotten after six months. The market is what it is because there are too few Moores and Ellises and Gaimans , and too many self-referential comic-fans-turned-writers.
  - gaelian 15y ago

joska 15y ago

Mob rule activism is so 1960's ....

KiwiCoder 15y ago

Tangential Alan Moore - Alternative thought for the day at http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_9669000/9669590.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_9669000/9669590....

paulhauggis 15y ago

Anonymous is a childish sudo-terrorist group that has thrown multiple digital temper-tantrums because they haven't gotten their way. Even if I support their views, I would never want to be associated with them.

deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
jbooth 15y ago
Best to do nothing then, and be one of those who stood aside.
- icebraining 15y ago
  Those are hardly the only two options.
- paulhauggis 15y ago
  I would rather have my own group. That doesn't hide behind a computer screen.
ben0x539 15y ago
> I would never want to be associated with them. That's rather the idea of being anonymous.
gee_totes 15y ago
A terrorist group with the power of sudo is a scary thought. Obligatory XKCD: http://xkcd.com/149/ http://xkcd.com/149/
- paulhauggis 15y ago
  Right. Because that's all they do. Let's see: 1) Stole from Symantec and released the code: https://thepiratebay.se/torrent/7014253 https://thepiratebay.se/torrent/7014253 2) stole from pcanywhere and released the code: http://www.zdnet.co.uk/news/security-threats/2012/02/07/anonymous-activists-release-pcanywhere-source-code-40094993/ http://www.zdnet.co.uk/news/security-threats/2012/02/07/anon... Funny thing is, Google does the same thing with the GPL (IE: "theft" of code): http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/8991.html http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/8991.html and the people here on HN want to crucify them. It's so easy to hide behind a handle/username online. It takes no balls or courage because you have little to no risk. The mere fact that they do this shows me that they aren't really serious about their views and are most likely anti-social kids (or adults with the maturity of kids). This is stuff that I would have enjoyed when I was 15.

imjoel 15y ago

It's hard for me to align myself with Anonymous because I really don't like how they give support to the ideas I agree with, but, man, it sure does look exciting from where I'm standing.

mindcrime 15y ago

The thing I find interesting / amusing about the "Guy Fawkes" masks from the movie, is the extent to which they have been embraced by at least 3 or 4 fairly different, even seemingly opposing, groups. Looking around, I've seen these masks associated with: 1. Radical libertarian / anti-government types 2. Tea Partiers 3. The OWS movement 4. Anonymous The moral of this story may just be that these groups have more in common that you would suspect at first blush.

tvon 15y ago
They're all opposed to how the government currently operates. I think that's something that most of the country agrees upon.
- rhizome 15y ago
  But let's talk about birth-control.
  - etherael 15y ago
    Was this an attempt to illustrate "important issues" rather than promoting iconoclasm, or an attempt to say that wedge issues are what drives modern government and thus we shouldn't be paying attention to the man behind the curtain, but discussing the preselected moral issue dujour to keep us distracted and shoulders to the grindwheel rather than looking at the bigger picture? The latter doesn't much look worth of downvoting to me, in fact I'd go almost so far as to say it's amongst the most vexing problems of humanity at the moment.
    - rhizome 15y ago
      Thanks for actually replying. Yes, my point (such as it was) is that wedge issues distract from the real "supra-partisan" issues that affect citizens across party lines, like the immunity of bankers from prosecution, how much of a drain military expenditures are on the economy (and therefor quality of life) in the US, the TSA, US foreign policy as a stifle on travel opportunities, and so on. Oh, but let's talk about some religious people laying a turd of morality on the front page of every newspaper. Birth-control in church insurance? Such a pressing issue!

tripngroove 15y ago

Just saw an awesome documentary on Anonymous at the Slamdance Film Festival (Sundance's indie younger sibling). Interesting and well made. Would recommend it for anyone who is interested in Anonymous/Hacktivism. http://wearelegionthedocumentary.com/ http://wearelegionthedocumentary.com/

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

Interrobang 15y ago

"Our present financial ethos no longer even resembles conventional capitalism, which at least implies a brutal Darwinian free-for-all, however one-sided and unfair. Instead, we have a situation where the banks seem to be an untouchable monarchy beyond the reach of governmental restraint, much like the profligate court of Charles I." I couldn't agree more.