4 ms·

> employers had a burden of showing that their tests were sufficiently related to the posted job so why not just create a test that actually tests for the skil

> employers had a burden of showing that their tests were sufficiently related to the posted job so why not just create a test that actually tests for the skills needed for the job? that would be the obvious way to optimize profit from a business perspective. the fact that employers don't do that is a pretty clear sign that the purpose of degree requirements is explicitly discriminatory, the same as "IQ" tests (which are completely fraudulent).

bell-cot 3y ago
> so why not just create a test that actually tests for the skills needed for the job? IANAL, but my cynical guess is America's legal system. Being ever-so-obviously in the right does not pay your attorney's bills for you.
LawTalkingGuy 3y ago
> "IQ" tests (which are completely fraudulent) No, not really. Up for debate is pretty much only the overloading of the word 'intelligence'. But whatever it is, it correlates well with job performance and maximum level of education attainable. But they are culturally sensitive, and thus racially sensitive, and you need to apply the right test to people, for the right goals, to get meaningful results. If you want to hire only people n-sigma above the norm, in an area of rich and well-educated locals, and you apply the same test to them as to foreign applicants, you'll likely never hire a foreigner - they won't test as well as they would on a test in their native tongue/tasks/etc. But if you try to estimate the level of abilities needed and you use the correct test to establish an applicant's ability against that metric and hire from anyone qualified, then the tests are useful. They're even a way for skilled foreigners to test into qualification without having to jump through expensive credentialing hoops.
- rayiner 3y ago
  Are IQ tests (or any standardized test) “culturally sensitive?”
  - disgruntledphd2 3y ago
    Yeah, particularly the language ones. You do have some non culturally sensitive ones like Ravens matrices, but they're not the default.
    - rayiner 3y ago
      By “culture” do you mean being able to speak English? Because I am at a loss as to what else you think is in there.
      - disgruntledphd2 3y ago
        Word analogy puzzles tend to favour particular dialects and cultures and don't map neatly to other measures of g. If you're actually interested I can go and dig up some of the literature (I have a PhD in psychology in an adjacent area). Please let me know.
      - LawTalkingGuy 3y ago
        https://www.clearchoiceprep.com/sat-act-prep-blog/the-most-infamous-example-of-cultural-bias-on-the-sat https://www.clearchoiceprep.com/sat-act-prep-blog/the-most-i... Basically though, anything that relies on something not printed on the test runs this risk.
- metalspot 3y ago
  > correlates well with job performance highly doubtful, but i would be interested to see your evidence. IQ tests might provide a rough gating mechanism but applying them in the field you don't have any control group so there is no proof that they are actually selecting people correctly (you don't know how many good performers you are rejecting because they didn't score well on the flawed test). > maximum level of education attainable since the education system is also designed by the same misguided people who designed IQ tests it wouldn't be surprising if scoring well on IQ tests also leads to doing well in the education system, but that doesn't meant that either are doing anything of any value.

bell-cot 3y ago

> so why not just create a test that actually tests for the skills needed for the job? IANAL, but my cynical guess is America's legal system. Being ever-so-obviously in the right does not pay your attorney's bills for you.

LawTalkingGuy 3y ago

> "IQ" tests (which are completely fraudulent) No, not really. Up for debate is pretty much only the overloading of the word 'intelligence'. But whatever it is, it correlates well with job performance and maximum level of education attainable. But they are culturally sensitive, and thus racially sensitive, and you need to apply the right test to people, for the right goals, to get meaningful results. If you want to hire only people n-sigma above the norm, in an area of rich and well-educated locals, and you apply the same test to them as to foreign applicants, you'll likely never hire a foreigner - they won't test as well as they would on a test in their native tongue/tasks/etc. But if you try to estimate the level of abilities needed and you use the correct test to establish an applicant's ability against that metric and hire from anyone qualified, then the tests are useful. They're even a way for skilled foreigners to test into qualification without having to jump through expensive credentialing hoops.

rayiner 3y ago
Are IQ tests (or any standardized test) “culturally sensitive?”
- disgruntledphd2 3y ago
  Yeah, particularly the language ones. You do have some non culturally sensitive ones like Ravens matrices, but they're not the default.
  - rayiner 3y ago
    By “culture” do you mean being able to speak English? Because I am at a loss as to what else you think is in there.
    - disgruntledphd2 3y ago
      Word analogy puzzles tend to favour particular dialects and cultures and don't map neatly to other measures of g. If you're actually interested I can go and dig up some of the literature (I have a PhD in psychology in an adjacent area). Please let me know.
    - LawTalkingGuy 3y ago
      https://www.clearchoiceprep.com/sat-act-prep-blog/the-most-infamous-example-of-cultural-bias-on-the-sat https://www.clearchoiceprep.com/sat-act-prep-blog/the-most-i... Basically though, anything that relies on something not printed on the test runs this risk.
metalspot 3y ago
> correlates well with job performance highly doubtful, but i would be interested to see your evidence. IQ tests might provide a rough gating mechanism but applying them in the field you don't have any control group so there is no proof that they are actually selecting people correctly (you don't know how many good performers you are rejecting because they didn't score well on the flawed test). > maximum level of education attainable since the education system is also designed by the same misguided people who designed IQ tests it wouldn't be surprising if scoring well on IQ tests also leads to doing well in the education system, but that doesn't meant that either are doing anything of any value.