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The whole "lab-grown meat" thing always seemed like nonsense to me, at least techniques using cell cultures. Life is a no-rules arms race, which is why immune s

by tivert 4y ago

The whole "lab-grown meat" thing always seemed like nonsense to me, at least techniques using cell cultures. Life is a no-rules arms race, which is why immune systems are a basic requirement, not an unnecessary luxury. Trying to build an organism out of tubes and pipes with industrial techniques seems utterly foolish to create such a low value/mass quantity product as food. IMHO, any kind of successful and practical "lab grown meat" would probably look like some kind of engineered "minimal viable animal" (e.g. a chicken without the brain, and maybe missing a few other things, but recognizable as an animal with functioning organ systems).

Metacelsus 4y ago
Like this: https://asteriskmag.com/issues/1/they-may-as-well-grow-on-trees-the-future-of-genetically-engineered-livestock https://asteriskmag.com/issues/1/they-may-as-well-grow-on-tr...
- bobwaycott 4y ago
  Wow. That chicken may be one of the most horrifying illustrations I’ve seen in a while.
AstralStorm 4y ago
MeatBeast (TM) from Imperium Galactica. Way better than engineered fungus that predated it. :)
whywhywhywhy 4y ago
>(e.g. a chicken without the brain, and maybe missing a few other things, but recognizable as an animal with functioning organ systems). Or a tumor
Retric 4y ago
We already use several processes that are similar to lab grown meat. Ie beer and cheese are a bunch of cells dumped into a growth medium. Hell bread rises because of yeasts in a growth medium. So the “minimal organism” here is probably some kind of fast growing meat cell in a relatively sterile environment, alcohol production optional.
- tivert 4y ago
  > We already use several processes that are similar to lab grown meat. Ie beer and cheese are a bunch of cells dumped into a growth medium. Hell bread rises because of yeasts in a growth medium. "Similar" is not the same. In all those cases you cite, you're using non-animal cells that are very close to wild to modify existing food in relatively minor ways. If "meat" was bacterial sludge or yeast blocks, it would be a lot more practical to grow in a lab, but it's not. Meat is things like chicken muscle cells, which are not evolved to grow outside the support of a complex organism.
  - v8xi 4y ago
    If your definition of food extends to everything, then yes. In all of these products (and lab grown meat) you take low-value starter materials and make them food through microbial processes. Without yeast we wouldn't really be eating wheat to the same extent as we do (except unleavened bread...)
    - tivert 4y ago
      > In all of these products (and lab grown meat) you take low-value starter materials and make them food through microbial processes. You are missing the key point. Not all "microbial processes" are the same: they can have massively different characteristics. Lab grown meat 1) uses exceedingly fragile microbes and 2) makes extensive modifications to the food (complete transformation). Making beer 3) uses much more robust microbes and 4) makes less extensive modifications to the food (i.e. metabolize a fraction of the carbs into a microbially-toxic substance called alcohol). If your understanding can't make these significant distinctions, it's too fuzzy to be very good.
      - Retric 4y ago
        The assumption that these cells cannot be hardy assumes a great deal about this process. It’s lab grown meat not just lab grown beef. From the perspective of human health we can use non mammalian cells for meat such as fish, reptile, or even invertebrates. That greatly changed the risks from things like viral or bacterial infection. There’s a massive tradeoff in terms of the need for an immune system vs antibiotics vs near perfect sterilization. Avoiding contamination is extremely difficult but if possible solves many problems.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
tomjakubowski 4y ago
Biology gives us many alternatives to the immune system, which is found only in vertebrates. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innate_immune_system#Beyond_vertebrates https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innate_immune_system#Beyond_ve...
Teever 4y ago
I've had similar thoughts. It seems to me that it's probably a lot easier to design some sort of 'minimum viable' animal that produces perfect chicken eggs instead of trying to produce some sort of tissue that can be made to resemble chicken breast, or more likely chicken nuggets. The consumer will never have to see the unsightly 'meat' that will be very imperfect, so you don't have to invest in making it palatable to humans. It just has to produce eggs. There's probably a lot of room to optimize egg product as it currently is.

by tivert 4y ago

Metacelsus 4y ago

Like this: https://asteriskmag.com/issues/1/they-may-as-well-grow-on-trees-the-future-of-genetically-engineered-livestock https://asteriskmag.com/issues/1/they-may-as-well-grow-on-tr...

bobwaycott 4y ago
Wow. That chicken may be one of the most horrifying illustrations I’ve seen in a while.

AstralStorm 4y ago

MeatBeast (TM) from Imperium Galactica. Way better than engineered fungus that predated it. :)

whywhywhywhy 4y ago

>(e.g. a chicken without the brain, and maybe missing a few other things, but recognizable as an animal with functioning organ systems). Or a tumor

Retric 4y ago

We already use several processes that are similar to lab grown meat. Ie beer and cheese are a bunch of cells dumped into a growth medium. Hell bread rises because of yeasts in a growth medium. So the “minimal organism” here is probably some kind of fast growing meat cell in a relatively sterile environment, alcohol production optional.

tivert 4y ago
> We already use several processes that are similar to lab grown meat. Ie beer and cheese are a bunch of cells dumped into a growth medium. Hell bread rises because of yeasts in a growth medium. "Similar" is not the same. In all those cases you cite, you're using non-animal cells that are very close to wild to modify existing food in relatively minor ways. If "meat" was bacterial sludge or yeast blocks, it would be a lot more practical to grow in a lab, but it's not. Meat is things like chicken muscle cells, which are not evolved to grow outside the support of a complex organism.
- v8xi 4y ago
  If your definition of food extends to everything, then yes. In all of these products (and lab grown meat) you take low-value starter materials and make them food through microbial processes. Without yeast we wouldn't really be eating wheat to the same extent as we do (except unleavened bread...)
  - tivert 4y ago
    > In all of these products (and lab grown meat) you take low-value starter materials and make them food through microbial processes. You are missing the key point. Not all "microbial processes" are the same: they can have massively different characteristics. Lab grown meat 1) uses exceedingly fragile microbes and 2) makes extensive modifications to the food (complete transformation). Making beer 3) uses much more robust microbes and 4) makes less extensive modifications to the food (i.e. metabolize a fraction of the carbs into a microbially-toxic substance called alcohol). If your understanding can't make these significant distinctions, it's too fuzzy to be very good.
    - Retric 4y ago
      The assumption that these cells cannot be hardy assumes a great deal about this process. It’s lab grown meat not just lab grown beef. From the perspective of human health we can use non mammalian cells for meat such as fish, reptile, or even invertebrates. That greatly changed the risks from things like viral or bacterial infection. There’s a massive tradeoff in terms of the need for an immune system vs antibiotics vs near perfect sterilization. Avoiding contamination is extremely difficult but if possible solves many problems.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

tomjakubowski 4y ago

Biology gives us many alternatives to the immune system, which is found only in vertebrates. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innate_immune_system#Beyond_vertebrates https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innate_immune_system#Beyond_ve...

Teever 4y ago

I've had similar thoughts. It seems to me that it's probably a lot easier to design some sort of 'minimum viable' animal that produces perfect chicken eggs instead of trying to produce some sort of tissue that can be made to resemble chicken breast, or more likely chicken nuggets. The consumer will never have to see the unsightly 'meat' that will be very imperfect, so you don't have to invest in making it palatable to humans. It just has to produce eggs. There's probably a lot of room to optimize egg product as it currently is.