6 ms·

The H1B program might have started out as a way to attract highly skilled workers, and that might still happen in some cases today, but by and large it's not re

by sethd 3y ago

The H1B program might have started out as a way to attract highly skilled workers, and that might still happen in some cases today, but by and large it's not resulting in the US pulling in top talent and it is used as a way to suppress wages in the US across the board. We need immigration policies that allow highly skilled workers to come to the US with no strings attached so these workers have the same job mobility as US citizens and permanent residents. The H1B program today resembles something closer to indentured servitude. So yes, the US should attract highly skilled workers, but no, the H1B program is not working that way.

pl90087 3y ago
My company struggles to find the right people. Many that we find we can't hire because the risk is too high that they won't make the lottery, so positions keep unfilled. This is a serious problem limiting our growth.
- big_youth 3y ago
  Why not hire Americans? I went to a no name state school with a large CS class. Sure we're not MIT/Stanford quality (well many where) but plenty of talent to go around. Whether they want to work for your wages is the real issues.
  - pl90087 3y ago
    > Why not hire Americans? If they pass the interview then we obviously gladly hire them. But competition is hard. We do have quite competitive wages. But we need more people than the American-only portion of the market has to offer. Competent foreigners make up a sizeable part of the applicants, and those who don't already have visa or green card we just can't hire. It's as simple as that.
    - greenfield1 3y ago
      "Why not hire Americans?" in this context is like asking "Why not just vaccinate people?" in April 2020.
    - cliquecover 3y ago
      have you tried paying competent Americans more?
    - dantk 3y ago
      you've made multiple comments in this thread about being unable to find American workers. I'm currently looking for work but looking at your profile I can't find your company. Where can I apply to whatever job openings you have?
- edgyquant 3y ago
  So hire US citizens like a US company should. I have friends who are great programmers (entry level but better than most of the outsourced coders I’ve worked with) working in factories because companies would rather outsource the work than give them a chance.
  - pl90087 3y ago
    > So hire US citizens like a US company should. I wasn't aware that there is so strong US nationalism present in the participants of this forum. After this thread I'll need to seriously re-adjust my mental model. > I have friends who are great programmers (entry level but better than most of the outsourced coders I’ve worked with) working in factories because companies would rather outsource the work than give them a chance. I have many brilliant co-workers, from many countries of this planet, some are US citizens, some became US citizens recently, and many are from many other countries. They all work well together and if somebody shows up in an interview and clears the bar then they are welcomed. I've also personally witnessed hundreds of "great programmers" in interviews, some Americans some not, apparently thinking they are brilliant and then couldn't participate in a constructive discussion about fundamentals or about real-world program solving. The generalizations in this thread as well as the assumptions being made about me and my background are quite shocking. Do you guys have set foot in actual US companies recently? It's not about US citizens vs. outsourced work. The typical company has a broad mix of live stories. Something I value in our industry. Maybe I've just been blind to the bubbles of nationalism that seem to be brewing somewhere. I'm glad they stayed outside of my company (or else I would have).
  - Thorrez 3y ago
    I don't think outsourcing and hiring H1Bs are the same thing.
- Jcampuzano2 3y ago
  "Many that we find we can't hire because the risk is too high that they won't make the lottery" Well you lost me right there, because there would be no such risk if you hired a US worker. I highly doubt there isn't a US worker who has the skillset for what you are looking for, but rather there isn't a US worker who wants to do the job for the compensation your company is offering. I'm not against H1B's/attracting top foreign talent, but unless its a highly specialized role I can guarantee there are people with the skillset right here in the US. You're just not willing to pay what they're looking for, or ironically the risk is too high for a US worker to work for you vs what they're comfortable with (i.e. job security, risk of the company going under, etc).
- mixmastamyk 3y ago
  Have you considered training? :rofl:
- dantk 3y ago
  I'm looking forward to seeing your job opening when the May "Who's Hiring?" thread is created.
mynameisvlad 3y ago
> We need immigration policies that allow highly skilled workers to come to the US with no strings attached so these workers have the same job mobility as US citizens and permanent residents. So… The EB visas?
- local_crmdgeon 3y ago
  Yes. H1B is overused, EB is what the system should actually look like.
- abecedarius 3y ago
  FWIW I know an exceptionally talented hacker who applied for an EB and then gave up after... a year? a while, anyway. And moved to Canada. The process was just too kafkaesque.
  - mynameisvlad 3y ago
    I mean, I've had the gamut. TN, H1-B, EB-3, Green Card, and now Passport. And Canadian citzenship before that after immigrating there. No immigration process is quick. They're probably intentionally designed to not be quick. The Canadian process might be quicker, but it still takes plenty of time, has requirements, etc.
    - abecedarius 3y ago
      "Other states are unreasonable about immigration too" partially explains this problem but doesn't justify it. (I'm not saying some kind of filter is necessarily bad. But a kafkaesque one is. And this isn't a small problem -- it's made us collectively a lot poorer. (Bryan Caplan, Open Borders, for that argument.))
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
no_wizard 3y ago
It was never meant as a way to attract highly skilled workers as a goal. Its entire premise was to attract skilled workers when there was a shortage of workers or inability to augment the national labor pool to meet requirements. I want to clarify this on purpose. For instance, before our current system (which was lobbied for to add loopholes around what qualifies for talent shortage in the late 80s / early 90s) the H1B program was used for truly unique situations, like hiring Medical Doctors, where you could demonstrate that the US national labor pool couldn't fulfill the demand and additional training would not work either. In 1990 they changed the criteria for what constitutes a "shortage of talent" allowing broad definitions and weak justifications, and thats when the explosion by the tech industry hiring H1Bs took hold in earnest
safog 3y ago
Engineers are getting paid 200k p/y out of school and you think there's some magical downward pressure on wages? Even now companies are giving up on the legal immigration system and hiring outside the US. Canada has a much saner system. Gigantic engineering offices in India and China. The US treats it as some zero sum game between citizens / immigrants and is losing out on taxes, economic spending (every HC outside the US is less spend in the US local economies).
- rangestransform 3y ago
  yeah there is some magical downward pressure on wages due to layoffs, compared to last summer's job market canadian tech wages are absolutely pennies compared to US wages, i'd hardly consider it an example to follow
- michaelt 3y ago
  So H1B visas are only available for jobs paying >$200k/year, right? Oh wait...
  - safog 3y ago
    It's not worth discussing this because the reasons are well documented. You need to adjust for cost of living, universities, hospitals, non profits don't pay as much etc. There is a prevailing wage determination check for granting a H1. That rule was revised a few times, that's the right lever to pull. You could make the prevailing wage requirements == median wage for a given experience in an area. Right now it's the 35th percentile.
- bcrosby95 3y ago
  Most engineers aren't getting paid 200k out of school. If you want to focus on the top of the top, which 200k out of school would be, then H1B1 should be a pure auction system: take the top X salaries offered, and let them in.
- wil421 3y ago
  Most graduates, especially engineers, are not seeing $200k out of school. HN is skewed highly towards people in FAANG and SF where salaries are out of the norm for most positions. I know a few fresh out of school lawyers and they are right below $200k. I could imagine doctors in certain specialties are the only grads getting paid an average of $200k+.

by sethd 3y ago

pl90087 3y ago

My company struggles to find the right people. Many that we find we can't hire because the risk is too high that they won't make the lottery, so positions keep unfilled. This is a serious problem limiting our growth.

big_youth 3y ago
Why not hire Americans? I went to a no name state school with a large CS class. Sure we're not MIT/Stanford quality (well many where) but plenty of talent to go around. Whether they want to work for your wages is the real issues.
- pl90087 3y ago
  > Why not hire Americans? If they pass the interview then we obviously gladly hire them. But competition is hard. We do have quite competitive wages. But we need more people than the American-only portion of the market has to offer. Competent foreigners make up a sizeable part of the applicants, and those who don't already have visa or green card we just can't hire. It's as simple as that.
  - greenfield1 3y ago
    "Why not hire Americans?" in this context is like asking "Why not just vaccinate people?" in April 2020.
  - cliquecover 3y ago
    have you tried paying competent Americans more?
  - dantk 3y ago
    you've made multiple comments in this thread about being unable to find American workers. I'm currently looking for work but looking at your profile I can't find your company. Where can I apply to whatever job openings you have?
edgyquant 3y ago
So hire US citizens like a US company should. I have friends who are great programmers (entry level but better than most of the outsourced coders I’ve worked with) working in factories because companies would rather outsource the work than give them a chance.
- pl90087 3y ago
  > So hire US citizens like a US company should. I wasn't aware that there is so strong US nationalism present in the participants of this forum. After this thread I'll need to seriously re-adjust my mental model. > I have friends who are great programmers (entry level but better than most of the outsourced coders I’ve worked with) working in factories because companies would rather outsource the work than give them a chance. I have many brilliant co-workers, from many countries of this planet, some are US citizens, some became US citizens recently, and many are from many other countries. They all work well together and if somebody shows up in an interview and clears the bar then they are welcomed. I've also personally witnessed hundreds of "great programmers" in interviews, some Americans some not, apparently thinking they are brilliant and then couldn't participate in a constructive discussion about fundamentals or about real-world program solving. The generalizations in this thread as well as the assumptions being made about me and my background are quite shocking. Do you guys have set foot in actual US companies recently? It's not about US citizens vs. outsourced work. The typical company has a broad mix of live stories. Something I value in our industry. Maybe I've just been blind to the bubbles of nationalism that seem to be brewing somewhere. I'm glad they stayed outside of my company (or else I would have).
- Thorrez 3y ago
  I don't think outsourcing and hiring H1Bs are the same thing.
Jcampuzano2 3y ago
"Many that we find we can't hire because the risk is too high that they won't make the lottery" Well you lost me right there, because there would be no such risk if you hired a US worker. I highly doubt there isn't a US worker who has the skillset for what you are looking for, but rather there isn't a US worker who wants to do the job for the compensation your company is offering. I'm not against H1B's/attracting top foreign talent, but unless its a highly specialized role I can guarantee there are people with the skillset right here in the US. You're just not willing to pay what they're looking for, or ironically the risk is too high for a US worker to work for you vs what they're comfortable with (i.e. job security, risk of the company going under, etc).
mixmastamyk 3y ago
Have you considered training? :rofl:
dantk 3y ago
I'm looking forward to seeing your job opening when the May "Who's Hiring?" thread is created.

mynameisvlad 3y ago

> We need immigration policies that allow highly skilled workers to come to the US with no strings attached so these workers have the same job mobility as US citizens and permanent residents. So… The EB visas?

local_crmdgeon 3y ago
Yes. H1B is overused, EB is what the system should actually look like.
abecedarius 3y ago
FWIW I know an exceptionally talented hacker who applied for an EB and then gave up after... a year? a while, anyway. And moved to Canada. The process was just too kafkaesque.
- mynameisvlad 3y ago
  I mean, I've had the gamut. TN, H1-B, EB-3, Green Card, and now Passport. And Canadian citzenship before that after immigrating there. No immigration process is quick. They're probably intentionally designed to not be quick. The Canadian process might be quicker, but it still takes plenty of time, has requirements, etc.
  - abecedarius 3y ago
    "Other states are unreasonable about immigration too" partially explains this problem but doesn't justify it. (I'm not saying some kind of filter is necessarily bad. But a kafkaesque one is. And this isn't a small problem -- it's made us collectively a lot poorer. (Bryan Caplan, Open Borders, for that argument.))

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

no_wizard 3y ago

It was never meant as a way to attract highly skilled workers as a goal. Its entire premise was to attract skilled workers when there was a shortage of workers or inability to augment the national labor pool to meet requirements. I want to clarify this on purpose. For instance, before our current system (which was lobbied for to add loopholes around what qualifies for talent shortage in the late 80s / early 90s) the H1B program was used for truly unique situations, like hiring Medical Doctors, where you could demonstrate that the US national labor pool couldn't fulfill the demand and additional training would not work either. In 1990 they changed the criteria for what constitutes a "shortage of talent" allowing broad definitions and weak justifications, and thats when the explosion by the tech industry hiring H1Bs took hold in earnest

safog 3y ago

Engineers are getting paid 200k p/y out of school and you think there's some magical downward pressure on wages? Even now companies are giving up on the legal immigration system and hiring outside the US. Canada has a much saner system. Gigantic engineering offices in India and China. The US treats it as some zero sum game between citizens / immigrants and is losing out on taxes, economic spending (every HC outside the US is less spend in the US local economies).

rangestransform 3y ago
yeah there is some magical downward pressure on wages due to layoffs, compared to last summer's job market canadian tech wages are absolutely pennies compared to US wages, i'd hardly consider it an example to follow
michaelt 3y ago
So H1B visas are only available for jobs paying >$200k/year, right? Oh wait...
- safog 3y ago
  It's not worth discussing this because the reasons are well documented. You need to adjust for cost of living, universities, hospitals, non profits don't pay as much etc. There is a prevailing wage determination check for granting a H1. That rule was revised a few times, that's the right lever to pull. You could make the prevailing wage requirements == median wage for a given experience in an area. Right now it's the 35th percentile.
bcrosby95 3y ago
Most engineers aren't getting paid 200k out of school. If you want to focus on the top of the top, which 200k out of school would be, then H1B1 should be a pure auction system: take the top X salaries offered, and let them in.
wil421 3y ago
Most graduates, especially engineers, are not seeing $200k out of school. HN is skewed highly towards people in FAANG and SF where salaries are out of the norm for most positions. I know a few fresh out of school lawyers and they are right below $200k. I could imagine doctors in certain specialties are the only grads getting paid an average of $200k+.