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or they could just hire people in the US, there's plenty of good US labor to go around. The point of these programs was to augment labor markets in times of sh

or they could just hire people in the US, there's plenty of good US labor to go around. The point of these programs was to augment labor markets in times of shortage (H1B isn't just used by tech FWIW), IE, the internal US labor pool wasn't big enough to sustain hiring in the US for N job(s) due to requirements and you could demonstrate that some form of training would be sufficiently work in a timely manner Its been pretty clear this isn't really true for decades yet H1B hasn't been curtailed meaningfully to uphold its intended goals

wbl 4y ago
Why shouldn't the US attract highly skilled workers from abroad?
- no_wizard 4y ago
  I distinctively didn't say the US shouldn't. I said the H1B program is not working as intended and pointed out its faltering its mission, and has been for decades. Whether we should have better immigration policies is a separate discussion, and I think we most definitely should. Path to citizenship would be for the best. It historically has worked out in the favor the nation, after all. The H1B program isn't this at all though
- afavour 4y ago
  Not really the question here. The H1B visa is intended to specifically target industries with a shortage of workers. Even as someone who arrived in the country on an H1B myself I question whether software engineering is experiencing a shortage these days given the mass layoffs we’ve seen lately. Whether we should prioritize local workers over foreign (and whether we have enough local workers) is a much broader political question.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- hu3 4y ago
  It's natural and healthy for countries to prioritize hiring their own citizens. H1B has been abused to hire workers of similar skillset for a lower salary. And I say that as a non-US citizen, interested in H1B program.
- bdcravens 4y ago
  They should. However, that's not the point of the H1B - it's designed to bridge gaps in domestic skills, not increase competition.
- sethd 4y ago
  The H1B program might have started out as a way to attract highly skilled workers, and that might still happen in some cases today, but by and large it's not resulting in the US pulling in top talent and it is used as a way to suppress wages in the US across the board. We need immigration policies that allow highly skilled workers to come to the US with no strings attached so these workers have the same job mobility as US citizens and permanent residents. The H1B program today resembles something closer to indentured servitude. So yes, the US should attract highly skilled workers, but no, the H1B program is not working that way.
  - pl90087 4y ago
    My company struggles to find the right people. Many that we find we can't hire because the risk is too high that they won't make the lottery, so positions keep unfilled. This is a serious problem limiting our growth.
    - big_youth 4y ago
      Why not hire Americans? I went to a no name state school with a large CS class. Sure we're not MIT/Stanford quality (well many where) but plenty of talent to go around. Whether they want to work for your wages is the real issues.
      - pl90087 4y ago
        > Why not hire Americans? If they pass the interview then we obviously gladly hire them. But competition is hard. We do have quite competitive wages. But we need more people than the American-only portion of the market has to offer. Competent foreigners make up a sizeable part of the applicants, and those who don't already have visa or green card we just can't hire. It's as simple as that.
        greenfield1 4y ago
        "Why not hire Americans?" in this context is like asking "Why not just vaccinate people?" in April 2020.
- toomuchtodo 4y ago
  Nation state policy should be aggressively seeking and rolling the carpet out for exceptional talent, not cheap talent to depress internal wages. This is pretty standard policy across developed nations (as someone who has looked into skilled worker visas outside the US from within and is not exceptional talent).
- sokoloff 4y ago
  We should. That's what the E1/E2 categories are for; H1B was designed to address labor shortages, not necessarily/specifically for attracting highly skilled workers.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- commandlinefan 4y ago
  > highly skilled I'm sure there are many H1B visa holders who are actually highly skilled in something that's actually nearly impossible to find anywhere else. I know from experience that a lot of H1B visa holders are about the same as what you can find domestically (but they're a lot less likely to agitate for better working conditions).
- geraldwhen 4y ago
  Where are these candidates? I’ve only ever been given barely-entry level Junior h1bs I’ve been expected to train from 0. One person I was forced to work with legitimately did not understand how to connect to wifi or know when he was connected to wifi. He kept calling me saying his computer was broken.
- stcroixx 4y ago
  Without limits, it would destroy the market for domestic workers.
Swizec 4y ago
I had to research this for my greencard a while back. Here’s a fun stat for ya: USA opens about 500,000 new software development positions per year. USA creates about 50,000 new comp sci graduates per year. There are an order of magnitude too few Americans every year for the jobs available. Whatever you think of the H1B (and it has many problems), I doubt it’s coming even close to bridging that gap. source with links to sources: https://swizec.com/blog/software-engineering-best-job/ https://swizec.com/blog/software-engineering-best-job/
- smolder 4y ago
  You may have a point, but there at least a few degrees apart from Comp Sci that can lead to software development, nevermind mid-career direction changes and boot camps.
- guessbest 4y ago
  Is the USA the only country which has 10x more positions than freshly graduated students? If so, then America is the only country in the world which adequately compensates software developers which would mean it is unusual for another country like India and China to even have software developers if they would be better employed in the United States. Maybe the point of computer science programs is to serve as future American immigrants.
  - toast0 4y ago
    > which would mean it is unusual for another country like India and China to even have software developers if they would be better employed in the United States. There's lots of reasons software developers in India and China would remain in India and China, but one big one is obtaining a visa and permanent residency to live and work in the US is hard in general, and more so for people in populous countries with many emigrants destined for the US; I think it's India, China, and Mexico that have the three longest queues for green cards where there's a limit per country of birth. There's certainly a path to immigration through a computer science degree. Especially advanced degrees, which give preferences to visa applications. If you can afford it, get a bachelor's in your country of origin, come to the US for a Masters, work on OPT visa after graduation, hope it converts to H1B, work on H1B until you get a green card, is a well worn path, but there are others.
riku_iki 4y ago
> or they could just hire people in the US, there's plenty of good US labor to go around. the business of those companies is to bring some person, pay him $50/h while charge client $300/h. Good US labor wouldn't agree to work for $50/h.
- no_wizard 4y ago
  Then they should either setup an international arm abroad, which is perfectly legal[0] or raise your wages. If you can afford the overhead of the H1B system (there's a bunch of ongoing legal costs to doing this) then setting up an international arm of the company isn't that much different. The H1B program is not and its stated goal is not, to be able to undercut the US labor market with foreign labor [0]: though as someone in the labor market, it does have negative consequences on me potentially
  - riku_iki 4y ago
    > Then they should either setup an international arm abroad they sell h1b employees as US on-site consultants. > there's a bunch of ongoing legal costs to doing this several thousands USD as to my knowledge.
SheinhardtWigCo 4y ago
Exactly. H1B hires don't have the same freedom to look for another job, because a new employer has to hire a lawyer to transfer the H1B, and not many companies have the resources or are willing to do that. Even if a company offers market wages when hiring a H1B, it's arguably a better investment because they have far lower mobility. That isn't good for anyone except the big tech firms.
- smabie 4y ago
  Clearly it's good for the H1B person?
  - WirelessGigabit 4y ago
    Yes, but that's why we have immigration laws. It's a very fine balance to walk. 2 people, same age, but one from USA and one from a country without student dept... And this person from another country WANTS to come to the USA. They will be able to live on a lower wage. And even if they're done with the low wage, the process or changing jobs is arduous. So you're stuck. This gets exacerbated by the fact that it's really hard to gauge the cost of living from abroad.
matheusmoreira 4y ago
> or they could just hire people in the US, there's plenty of good US labor to go around At 50k USD per year? Doubt it. 50k is nothing to americans but it's a shitload of money to a lot of people, including south americans like me. Very few people here make more than that. In fact the value of such a salary will probably increase even further as our nations descend ever deeper into economy-destroying communism.
- no_wizard 4y ago
  Sure, but you don't need an H1B visa to get hired in your own country. Yet suspiciously, companies don't just open international arms of a company to do business (its alot easier than it used to be and its only initial overhead anyway). I'm suspicious of anyone wanting to hire H1B workers for 50K, that sounds like undercutting the labor market with foreign labor which is not the actual stated goal of the H1B system and the legislation that created it
ams92 4y ago
They need to update the minimum salary for H1B. There is no reason to bring in a QA engineer making 50k per year who tolerates poor working conditions due to lack of better options. I think that 100k would make more sense, and it arguably should be higher if the country wants to keep fulfilling the original goals of H1B.

wbl 4y ago

Why shouldn't the US attract highly skilled workers from abroad?

no_wizard 4y ago
I distinctively didn't say the US shouldn't. I said the H1B program is not working as intended and pointed out its faltering its mission, and has been for decades. Whether we should have better immigration policies is a separate discussion, and I think we most definitely should. Path to citizenship would be for the best. It historically has worked out in the favor the nation, after all. The H1B program isn't this at all though
afavour 4y ago
Not really the question here. The H1B visa is intended to specifically target industries with a shortage of workers. Even as someone who arrived in the country on an H1B myself I question whether software engineering is experiencing a shortage these days given the mass layoffs we’ve seen lately. Whether we should prioritize local workers over foreign (and whether we have enough local workers) is a much broader political question.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
hu3 4y ago
It's natural and healthy for countries to prioritize hiring their own citizens. H1B has been abused to hire workers of similar skillset for a lower salary. And I say that as a non-US citizen, interested in H1B program.
bdcravens 4y ago
They should. However, that's not the point of the H1B - it's designed to bridge gaps in domestic skills, not increase competition.
sethd 4y ago
The H1B program might have started out as a way to attract highly skilled workers, and that might still happen in some cases today, but by and large it's not resulting in the US pulling in top talent and it is used as a way to suppress wages in the US across the board. We need immigration policies that allow highly skilled workers to come to the US with no strings attached so these workers have the same job mobility as US citizens and permanent residents. The H1B program today resembles something closer to indentured servitude. So yes, the US should attract highly skilled workers, but no, the H1B program is not working that way.
- pl90087 4y ago
  My company struggles to find the right people. Many that we find we can't hire because the risk is too high that they won't make the lottery, so positions keep unfilled. This is a serious problem limiting our growth.
  - big_youth 4y ago
    Why not hire Americans? I went to a no name state school with a large CS class. Sure we're not MIT/Stanford quality (well many where) but plenty of talent to go around. Whether they want to work for your wages is the real issues.
    - pl90087 4y ago
      > Why not hire Americans? If they pass the interview then we obviously gladly hire them. But competition is hard. We do have quite competitive wages. But we need more people than the American-only portion of the market has to offer. Competent foreigners make up a sizeable part of the applicants, and those who don't already have visa or green card we just can't hire. It's as simple as that.
      - greenfield1 4y ago
        "Why not hire Americans?" in this context is like asking "Why not just vaccinate people?" in April 2020.
toomuchtodo 4y ago
Nation state policy should be aggressively seeking and rolling the carpet out for exceptional talent, not cheap talent to depress internal wages. This is pretty standard policy across developed nations (as someone who has looked into skilled worker visas outside the US from within and is not exceptional talent).
sokoloff 4y ago
We should. That's what the E1/E2 categories are for; H1B was designed to address labor shortages, not necessarily/specifically for attracting highly skilled workers.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
commandlinefan 4y ago
> highly skilled I'm sure there are many H1B visa holders who are actually highly skilled in something that's actually nearly impossible to find anywhere else. I know from experience that a lot of H1B visa holders are about the same as what you can find domestically (but they're a lot less likely to agitate for better working conditions).
geraldwhen 4y ago
Where are these candidates? I’ve only ever been given barely-entry level Junior h1bs I’ve been expected to train from 0. One person I was forced to work with legitimately did not understand how to connect to wifi or know when he was connected to wifi. He kept calling me saying his computer was broken.
stcroixx 4y ago
Without limits, it would destroy the market for domestic workers.

Swizec 4y ago

I had to research this for my greencard a while back. Here’s a fun stat for ya: USA opens about 500,000 new software development positions per year. USA creates about 50,000 new comp sci graduates per year. There are an order of magnitude too few Americans every year for the jobs available. Whatever you think of the H1B (and it has many problems), I doubt it’s coming even close to bridging that gap. source with links to sources: https://swizec.com/blog/software-engineering-best-job/ https://swizec.com/blog/software-engineering-best-job/

smolder 4y ago
You may have a point, but there at least a few degrees apart from Comp Sci that can lead to software development, nevermind mid-career direction changes and boot camps.
guessbest 4y ago
Is the USA the only country which has 10x more positions than freshly graduated students? If so, then America is the only country in the world which adequately compensates software developers which would mean it is unusual for another country like India and China to even have software developers if they would be better employed in the United States. Maybe the point of computer science programs is to serve as future American immigrants.
- toast0 4y ago
  > which would mean it is unusual for another country like India and China to even have software developers if they would be better employed in the United States. There's lots of reasons software developers in India and China would remain in India and China, but one big one is obtaining a visa and permanent residency to live and work in the US is hard in general, and more so for people in populous countries with many emigrants destined for the US; I think it's India, China, and Mexico that have the three longest queues for green cards where there's a limit per country of birth. There's certainly a path to immigration through a computer science degree. Especially advanced degrees, which give preferences to visa applications. If you can afford it, get a bachelor's in your country of origin, come to the US for a Masters, work on OPT visa after graduation, hope it converts to H1B, work on H1B until you get a green card, is a well worn path, but there are others.

riku_iki 4y ago

> or they could just hire people in the US, there's plenty of good US labor to go around. the business of those companies is to bring some person, pay him $50/h while charge client $300/h. Good US labor wouldn't agree to work for $50/h.

no_wizard 4y ago
Then they should either setup an international arm abroad, which is perfectly legal[0] or raise your wages. If you can afford the overhead of the H1B system (there's a bunch of ongoing legal costs to doing this) then setting up an international arm of the company isn't that much different. The H1B program is not and its stated goal is not, to be able to undercut the US labor market with foreign labor [0]: though as someone in the labor market, it does have negative consequences on me potentially
- riku_iki 4y ago
  > Then they should either setup an international arm abroad they sell h1b employees as US on-site consultants. > there's a bunch of ongoing legal costs to doing this several thousands USD as to my knowledge.

SheinhardtWigCo 4y ago

Exactly. H1B hires don't have the same freedom to look for another job, because a new employer has to hire a lawyer to transfer the H1B, and not many companies have the resources or are willing to do that. Even if a company offers market wages when hiring a H1B, it's arguably a better investment because they have far lower mobility. That isn't good for anyone except the big tech firms.

smabie 4y ago
Clearly it's good for the H1B person?
- WirelessGigabit 4y ago
  Yes, but that's why we have immigration laws. It's a very fine balance to walk. 2 people, same age, but one from USA and one from a country without student dept... And this person from another country WANTS to come to the USA. They will be able to live on a lower wage. And even if they're done with the low wage, the process or changing jobs is arduous. So you're stuck. This gets exacerbated by the fact that it's really hard to gauge the cost of living from abroad.

matheusmoreira 4y ago

> or they could just hire people in the US, there's plenty of good US labor to go around At 50k USD per year? Doubt it. 50k is nothing to americans but it's a shitload of money to a lot of people, including south americans like me. Very few people here make more than that. In fact the value of such a salary will probably increase even further as our nations descend ever deeper into economy-destroying communism.

no_wizard 4y ago
Sure, but you don't need an H1B visa to get hired in your own country. Yet suspiciously, companies don't just open international arms of a company to do business (its alot easier than it used to be and its only initial overhead anyway). I'm suspicious of anyone wanting to hire H1B workers for 50K, that sounds like undercutting the labor market with foreign labor which is not the actual stated goal of the H1B system and the legislation that created it

ams92 4y ago

They need to update the minimum salary for H1B. There is no reason to bring in a QA engineer making 50k per year who tolerates poor working conditions due to lack of better options. I think that 100k would make more sense, and it arguably should be higher if the country wants to keep fulfilling the original goals of H1B.