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The subtlety in this article is real. While logically money is fungible, it is the illusion of not seeing the transaction happens that makes people feel welcom

The subtlety in this article is real. While logically money is fungible, it is the illusion of not seeing the transaction happens that makes people feel welcome to enjoy hospitality in case of a friends beach house, dinner guest, catered party guest, etc. As soon as there is an explicit, incrementally attributable transaction triggered by their attendance, people often feel compelled to offer cash. If you invite people over for dinner & cook, or its a catered party, they all feel comfortable. As soon as you order takeout or ask what they want, they feel compelled to split the check. Even more so when dining out. Even the difference between ordering an array of dishes in advance vs asking what they want / ordering once they've arrived totally changes how people respond. It gets very awkward when you are trying to host & treat people, but they insist on compensating with cash. For me, I don't get the point of having wealth/resources if I can't share them freely. Especially if you come from a more modest background and now make 5x what some of your friends/family do.

ghaff 4y ago
I generally agree with your points, although in the takeout case, the host can probably communicate fairly clearly that they're going to order takeout (because they don't cook, don't want to bother with a caterer, etc.) and if anyone asks what they owe wave them off and that's that. Though, of course, if they did cook a meal no one would think of paying. (Though informal get-togethers with my friends tend to be pot luck to at least a degree.) Of course, financial situations do matter. Some new grads scraping by in the expensive city are probably not going to operate the same way that generally well-off professionals where everyone knows that a group takeout order really isn't a big deal for the host.
- steveBK123 4y ago
  It really depends on the person. Half of friends are like whatever. Half will send you a Venmo/zelle for an estimated amount if you refuse. I end up making sure to order modestly with the second half, as its not being generous if they are going to reimburse me later.
- hgsgm 4y ago
  I once had an amazing meal at someone's house, so I donated to food bank in their honor.
cogman10 4y ago
What I've learned with my in-laws is to stop worrying about it. Some people are going to be jealous/angry anytime you spend money. For example, whenever we go to visit them we get a hotel or rent a car. Perfectly normal right? Well to some of my in-laws that's "Throwing money around and in our faces" Even though the alternative is sleeping on the floor in their home and begging them for rides. And, I get it. They can't afford to grab a hotel and car like we can so it does look like a crazy luxury. I'll grab tabs and pay for things, I don't really care. I never have. But I was somewhat surprised to find people just generally upset when I do things for myself.
- steveBK123 4y ago
  Money can replace dependency and attachment, and some people get very offended by it. Other people appreciate you not burdening them. People are hard to parse.
- test6554 4y ago
  This is one of several standard reactions to people spending money. Jealousy, Envy, Disgust, Pity, Ambivalence. It's why people of the same social class tend to gravitate toward one another. While everyone is different regarding money, people of the same social class who have been in that position for a while seem to have similar reactions.
  - steveBK123 4y ago
    There's also a weird thing of like adjacent class envy more than large gaps. Kind of a Narcissism of small differences thing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissism_of_small_differences https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissism_of_small_difference...) At the extreme- Few people are personally envious of Jeff Bezos having a nicer house/car/boat/vacation. But the way some people in my small middle class hometown react to someone who lives in the same town/hood, kids going to same school driving a $40k car when they drive a $25k car is kind of comically deranged.
    - Aeolun 4y ago
mettamage 4y ago
> It gets very awkward when you are trying to host & treat people, but they insist on compensating with cash. My friends should feel comfortable with whatever. If they are more comfortable splitting then let’s do that. Under no circumstances will I make the assumption that more money is better and less money is bad. If they are acting out of politeness, that’s on them. This is especially the case because I tell my friends to be who they want to be
test6554 4y ago
To some people sharing money is generous. To others it's a flex that they can't replicate and it makes them bitter. To others it's a sign you can be taken advantage of. To others it's a sign that you are not mature financially and are just making poor financial decisions. Just like music, people have different tastes/expectations when it comes to money.
- WXLCKNO 4y ago
  I've been paying for a lot of things for my friends recently as there is a very large imbalance in wealth between us which is more recent. These are my best friends for the 20 years, same gang and they would never ask anything of me and always offered to contribute. I still felt sort of akward about how I was approaching it. Even if we tell each other everything and are transparent about money. I wanted to let them know that I don't care about the money at all, it's just the experiences that it will allow that matter to me and giving back to family and friends makes me feel good. However I have started just acting more normally and not insisting on taking care of everything,I think people feel better this way. So this article frames it nicely for the things I will be able to contribute still in a way that makes sense. I imagine that for people with newer or less strong friendships it must be even harder to manage.
  - treeman79 4y ago
    Make it a “business expense” friends won’t feel as bad of company is treating them all to dinner.
    - larkost 4y ago
      I am not sure that this is a net improvement: either you are lying to your friends, or you are lying to the business/on your taxes.
      - ilyt 4y ago
        Well if they get sad from getting told "I have some free money and I'd rather buy stuff for my friends than myself", that's next best thing.
maxfurman 4y ago
Your friends usually want to feel like they are your social peers; casually buying dinner for everyone reminds them that you're loaded and they aren't, but if they chip in they can maintain that feeling of being on your level. I got a tech job in 2014 when all my friends were waiters and bartenders and I found myself in situations like this quite a bit. To what degree am I obligated to pay more, since I have more, versus protecting my friends feelings and not rubbing it in? Humans are complicated creatures!
- Swizec 4y ago
  > I got a tech job in 2014 when all my friends were waiters and bartenders I sort of have this “problem” with my family. Since moving to USA about 8 years ago, I’ve been able to build as much wealth as took my mom her whole life. My sister makes in a month what I make in a week. The balance I’ve found works best when we hang out is for me to take care of any flights or lodgings, the invisible expenses, and be on equal footing otherwise. You pay for some meals or drinks, I pay for others, it all about balances out. And sometimes I buy them tech they can’t afford or donate my old devices. They seem to feel better about receiving a device I no longer need than being bought a new one.
  - steveBK123 4y ago
    Thats actually a great compromise and happy that it is working for your family. I've found a lot of parents have trouble switching from being providers to being provided for, especially if some of your siblings are still "takers". Personally my parents insist on us joining them on vacations I extremely don't want to go on (Orlando theme parks in peak 100F+ summer heat as 40ish couple w/o kids), and that they'll cover the expense.. when the expense isn't the issue, and 1/10th of what I'd spend on holiday.
    - Swizec 4y ago
      > vacations I extremely don't want to go on Why do you think I pay for flights and lodgings? ;) But really in my family’s case flights are expensive and quickly add up to a month of their income. It’s not that they don’t want to go somewhere fun, it’s that they can’t. And I’m tired of burning all my vacations on going back home. Flying them out somewhere fun is the obvious solution.
waboremo 4y ago
That's a good point about the illusionary aspect to it all. It's part of why there are so many cultural/social traditions where the polite thing to do is to counter-offer. If someone wants to pay for a meal, you're supposed to offer to pay instead, this dance goes on several rounds until you give up allowing the original person to pay, which kind of demonstrates several things one of them being loyalty and commitment. When this happens in cultures without this tradition, I find that both parties miss out: it doesn't feel as rewarding to pay, and it doesn't feel as rewarding to have your meal paid for because it seems low effort. People almost view that as bragging vs sharing because of that lack of dance. Which is part of the illusion! High effort v low effort. A safe way to treat people is to allow them the ability to "counter-offer". Dance with them a little, alternatively encourage them for the next event if they want. You can avoid that crude transactional feeling, plus if they are up for it, next event is their choice.
- reducesuffering 4y ago
  So https://twitter.com/killersundymann/status/1446131283969589250?lang=en https://twitter.com/killersundymann/status/14461312839695892... but with money
  - ilyt 4y ago
    TIL I'm German. It's just so much less mental effort to be direct. I've also noticed an opposite is a problem, when you don't want something that someone else made (say cookies) many people feel personally attacked that I don't want their cooking. Bitch I'm fat, I don't need more.
- hgsgm 4y ago
  This is the Byzantine General problem of relationships. No way to know how many times to go around before stopping.
- Aerbil313 4y ago
  I haven’t thought of it before, but here in Türkiye that dance is everywhere in life. Not only money related situations, if anyone is going to take/give anything more than the other party, or even if someone will be first to something and other party will be second, that dance is usually performed. I considered it an unnecessary form of kindness until now. But this is fading like any other tradition with great speed, as modernity spreads.
abruzzi 4y ago
To me, the subtlety is specifically mentioning money. "I'll pick up the check" feel more tacky than "on me". Both explicitly imply I'm paying, but the first says I'm paying for you, and the other says that I'm doing this for you. I know that a hairline difference, but for me it makes is seem less explicitly transactional and more like reciprocity. The second example doesn't seem as bad, becuase the cost of the cottage won't go down if you don't show up. But it would be softened further if the mention of money were out of the picture--"I have a cottage for the weekend" versus "I rented a cottage" This to me goes back to a very old-fashioned prejudice that discussion of money is a bit vulgar.
- dxscorp 4y ago
  I think you're spot on, the small details in delivery make a big difference and people naturally pick up on it
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
atoav 4y ago
> For me, I don't get the point of having wealth/resources if I can't share them freely. Especially if you come from a more modest background and now make 5x what some of your friends/family do. In my experience the most adamant refusers are people who literally live paycheck to paycheck. It is a mix of pride and the (very real!) fear that you might think they are only friends with you because you got the funds. If anything you should see it as a compliment if people who would need it refuse to let you pay.
bgro 4y ago
When you're cooking a dinner, you already bought all the food as a pre-paid expense for the most part. Or it's ambiguous enough as things are finalized yet that there's some certainty in how many people will actually show up / be hungry / etc. It's also not a lot of extra work to cook for 5 people compared to 3 or even 1, generally speaking. The initial investment of time is the big burden, and then it might be a little extra effort to add additional people. The food is also a lot less expensive in bulk when cooking at home. Doing 0 planning or pre-effort and buying takeout during the event is like you specifically planned to share the cost because you didn't want to do any preplanning. You didn't even call ahead to have the things delivered at a specific time. The cost in money directly scales to the amount of order. More people is always directly scaled more money, and it's pretty expensive to boot. If you're eating, you're not consuming food that was otherwise wasted or leftovers. You're a new premium scaled cost. The awkwardness here isn't the medium people are reaching the end goal of feeding their friends. It's really the planning and effort put in up front. Think about it from the reverse situation. If it WOULD have really hurt you financially to order food, but you technically could have struggled through the cost, how would you have silently asked for help other than waiting until last minute to order during the event in hopes people may pitch in? There may be a social obligation to order food where asking for people to pitch in may cause tension. For example, hosting a party at a nice new house but you were just laid off after scheduling the party and don't want to derail the rare gathering's vibes. If you find yourself in this situation and you are going to order food, I recommend pizza by the way. Just order a few different ones (including a vegetarian / vegan option or whatever if you have to guess people's preferences) but generally asking for preferences on pizza is not awkward. Pizza is an ambiguous delivery option where it's implied to be shared. It's similar to many general home cooked meals where the amount anybody has or doesn't have is ambiguous. Compared to takeout style delivery where every has a dedicated packaged meal and you either ordered 3xMeal or 4xMeal where the multiplier is absolute and the amount per person is without ambiguity.
t0mas88 4y ago
In Europe a lot of the more "upscale" restaurants have menu's with and without prices. If you let them know you're taking the others out for dinner as a treat they will hand out menu's without prices on it to your guests. And typically present the bill to you in a more subtle way so the guests don't see it. Never really thought about it before, but I think this is for the same reason. So you can take your guests to dinner and not make it feel like a financial transaction where you're paying for them.
- steveBK123 4y ago
  Hilariously in NYC there's restaurants that only do that on their website, so you can go in blind, as the buyer, to how much you are going to spend :-)

ghaff 4y ago

I generally agree with your points, although in the takeout case, the host can probably communicate fairly clearly that they're going to order takeout (because they don't cook, don't want to bother with a caterer, etc.) and if anyone asks what they owe wave them off and that's that. Though, of course, if they did cook a meal no one would think of paying. (Though informal get-togethers with my friends tend to be pot luck to at least a degree.) Of course, financial situations do matter. Some new grads scraping by in the expensive city are probably not going to operate the same way that generally well-off professionals where everyone knows that a group takeout order really isn't a big deal for the host.

steveBK123 4y ago
It really depends on the person. Half of friends are like whatever. Half will send you a Venmo/zelle for an estimated amount if you refuse. I end up making sure to order modestly with the second half, as its not being generous if they are going to reimburse me later.
hgsgm 4y ago
I once had an amazing meal at someone's house, so I donated to food bank in their honor.

cogman10 4y ago

What I've learned with my in-laws is to stop worrying about it. Some people are going to be jealous/angry anytime you spend money. For example, whenever we go to visit them we get a hotel or rent a car. Perfectly normal right? Well to some of my in-laws that's "Throwing money around and in our faces" Even though the alternative is sleeping on the floor in their home and begging them for rides. And, I get it. They can't afford to grab a hotel and car like we can so it does look like a crazy luxury. I'll grab tabs and pay for things, I don't really care. I never have. But I was somewhat surprised to find people just generally upset when I do things for myself.

steveBK123 4y ago
Money can replace dependency and attachment, and some people get very offended by it. Other people appreciate you not burdening them. People are hard to parse.
test6554 4y ago
This is one of several standard reactions to people spending money. Jealousy, Envy, Disgust, Pity, Ambivalence. It's why people of the same social class tend to gravitate toward one another. While everyone is different regarding money, people of the same social class who have been in that position for a while seem to have similar reactions.
- steveBK123 4y ago
  There's also a weird thing of like adjacent class envy more than large gaps. Kind of a Narcissism of small differences thing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissism_of_small_differences https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissism_of_small_difference...) At the extreme- Few people are personally envious of Jeff Bezos having a nicer house/car/boat/vacation. But the way some people in my small middle class hometown react to someone who lives in the same town/hood, kids going to same school driving a $40k car when they drive a $25k car is kind of comically deranged.
  - Aeolun 4y ago

mettamage 4y ago

> It gets very awkward when you are trying to host & treat people, but they insist on compensating with cash. My friends should feel comfortable with whatever. If they are more comfortable splitting then let’s do that. Under no circumstances will I make the assumption that more money is better and less money is bad. If they are acting out of politeness, that’s on them. This is especially the case because I tell my friends to be who they want to be

test6554 4y ago

To some people sharing money is generous. To others it's a flex that they can't replicate and it makes them bitter. To others it's a sign you can be taken advantage of. To others it's a sign that you are not mature financially and are just making poor financial decisions. Just like music, people have different tastes/expectations when it comes to money.

WXLCKNO 4y ago
I've been paying for a lot of things for my friends recently as there is a very large imbalance in wealth between us which is more recent. These are my best friends for the 20 years, same gang and they would never ask anything of me and always offered to contribute. I still felt sort of akward about how I was approaching it. Even if we tell each other everything and are transparent about money. I wanted to let them know that I don't care about the money at all, it's just the experiences that it will allow that matter to me and giving back to family and friends makes me feel good. However I have started just acting more normally and not insisting on taking care of everything,I think people feel better this way. So this article frames it nicely for the things I will be able to contribute still in a way that makes sense. I imagine that for people with newer or less strong friendships it must be even harder to manage.
- treeman79 4y ago
  Make it a “business expense” friends won’t feel as bad of company is treating them all to dinner.
  - larkost 4y ago
    I am not sure that this is a net improvement: either you are lying to your friends, or you are lying to the business/on your taxes.
    - ilyt 4y ago
      Well if they get sad from getting told "I have some free money and I'd rather buy stuff for my friends than myself", that's next best thing.

maxfurman 4y ago

Your friends usually want to feel like they are your social peers; casually buying dinner for everyone reminds them that you're loaded and they aren't, but if they chip in they can maintain that feeling of being on your level. I got a tech job in 2014 when all my friends were waiters and bartenders and I found myself in situations like this quite a bit. To what degree am I obligated to pay more, since I have more, versus protecting my friends feelings and not rubbing it in? Humans are complicated creatures!

Swizec 4y ago
> I got a tech job in 2014 when all my friends were waiters and bartenders I sort of have this “problem” with my family. Since moving to USA about 8 years ago, I’ve been able to build as much wealth as took my mom her whole life. My sister makes in a month what I make in a week. The balance I’ve found works best when we hang out is for me to take care of any flights or lodgings, the invisible expenses, and be on equal footing otherwise. You pay for some meals or drinks, I pay for others, it all about balances out. And sometimes I buy them tech they can’t afford or donate my old devices. They seem to feel better about receiving a device I no longer need than being bought a new one.
- steveBK123 4y ago
  Thats actually a great compromise and happy that it is working for your family. I've found a lot of parents have trouble switching from being providers to being provided for, especially if some of your siblings are still "takers". Personally my parents insist on us joining them on vacations I extremely don't want to go on (Orlando theme parks in peak 100F+ summer heat as 40ish couple w/o kids), and that they'll cover the expense.. when the expense isn't the issue, and 1/10th of what I'd spend on holiday.
  - Swizec 4y ago
    > vacations I extremely don't want to go on Why do you think I pay for flights and lodgings? ;) But really in my family’s case flights are expensive and quickly add up to a month of their income. It’s not that they don’t want to go somewhere fun, it’s that they can’t. And I’m tired of burning all my vacations on going back home. Flying them out somewhere fun is the obvious solution.

waboremo 4y ago

That's a good point about the illusionary aspect to it all. It's part of why there are so many cultural/social traditions where the polite thing to do is to counter-offer. If someone wants to pay for a meal, you're supposed to offer to pay instead, this dance goes on several rounds until you give up allowing the original person to pay, which kind of demonstrates several things one of them being loyalty and commitment. When this happens in cultures without this tradition, I find that both parties miss out: it doesn't feel as rewarding to pay, and it doesn't feel as rewarding to have your meal paid for because it seems low effort. People almost view that as bragging vs sharing because of that lack of dance. Which is part of the illusion! High effort v low effort. A safe way to treat people is to allow them the ability to "counter-offer". Dance with them a little, alternatively encourage them for the next event if they want. You can avoid that crude transactional feeling, plus if they are up for it, next event is their choice.

reducesuffering 4y ago
So https://twitter.com/killersundymann/status/1446131283969589250?lang=en https://twitter.com/killersundymann/status/14461312839695892... but with money
- ilyt 4y ago
  TIL I'm German. It's just so much less mental effort to be direct. I've also noticed an opposite is a problem, when you don't want something that someone else made (say cookies) many people feel personally attacked that I don't want their cooking. Bitch I'm fat, I don't need more.
hgsgm 4y ago
This is the Byzantine General problem of relationships. No way to know how many times to go around before stopping.
Aerbil313 4y ago
I haven’t thought of it before, but here in Türkiye that dance is everywhere in life. Not only money related situations, if anyone is going to take/give anything more than the other party, or even if someone will be first to something and other party will be second, that dance is usually performed. I considered it an unnecessary form of kindness until now. But this is fading like any other tradition with great speed, as modernity spreads.

abruzzi 4y ago

To me, the subtlety is specifically mentioning money. "I'll pick up the check" feel more tacky than "on me". Both explicitly imply I'm paying, but the first says I'm paying for you, and the other says that I'm doing this for you. I know that a hairline difference, but for me it makes is seem less explicitly transactional and more like reciprocity. The second example doesn't seem as bad, becuase the cost of the cottage won't go down if you don't show up. But it would be softened further if the mention of money were out of the picture--"I have a cottage for the weekend" versus "I rented a cottage" This to me goes back to a very old-fashioned prejudice that discussion of money is a bit vulgar.

dxscorp 4y ago
I think you're spot on, the small details in delivery make a big difference and people naturally pick up on it

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

atoav 4y ago

> For me, I don't get the point of having wealth/resources if I can't share them freely. Especially if you come from a more modest background and now make 5x what some of your friends/family do. In my experience the most adamant refusers are people who literally live paycheck to paycheck. It is a mix of pride and the (very real!) fear that you might think they are only friends with you because you got the funds. If anything you should see it as a compliment if people who would need it refuse to let you pay.

bgro 4y ago

When you're cooking a dinner, you already bought all the food as a pre-paid expense for the most part. Or it's ambiguous enough as things are finalized yet that there's some certainty in how many people will actually show up / be hungry / etc. It's also not a lot of extra work to cook for 5 people compared to 3 or even 1, generally speaking. The initial investment of time is the big burden, and then it might be a little extra effort to add additional people. The food is also a lot less expensive in bulk when cooking at home. Doing 0 planning or pre-effort and buying takeout during the event is like you specifically planned to share the cost because you didn't want to do any preplanning. You didn't even call ahead to have the things delivered at a specific time. The cost in money directly scales to the amount of order. More people is always directly scaled more money, and it's pretty expensive to boot. If you're eating, you're not consuming food that was otherwise wasted or leftovers. You're a new premium scaled cost. The awkwardness here isn't the medium people are reaching the end goal of feeding their friends. It's really the planning and effort put in up front. Think about it from the reverse situation. If it WOULD have really hurt you financially to order food, but you technically could have struggled through the cost, how would you have silently asked for help other than waiting until last minute to order during the event in hopes people may pitch in? There may be a social obligation to order food where asking for people to pitch in may cause tension. For example, hosting a party at a nice new house but you were just laid off after scheduling the party and don't want to derail the rare gathering's vibes. If you find yourself in this situation and you are going to order food, I recommend pizza by the way. Just order a few different ones (including a vegetarian / vegan option or whatever if you have to guess people's preferences) but generally asking for preferences on pizza is not awkward. Pizza is an ambiguous delivery option where it's implied to be shared. It's similar to many general home cooked meals where the amount anybody has or doesn't have is ambiguous. Compared to takeout style delivery where every has a dedicated packaged meal and you either ordered 3xMeal or 4xMeal where the multiplier is absolute and the amount per person is without ambiguity.

t0mas88 4y ago

In Europe a lot of the more "upscale" restaurants have menu's with and without prices. If you let them know you're taking the others out for dinner as a treat they will hand out menu's without prices on it to your guests. And typically present the bill to you in a more subtle way so the guests don't see it. Never really thought about it before, but I think this is for the same reason. So you can take your guests to dinner and not make it feel like a financial transaction where you're paying for them.

steveBK123 4y ago
Hilariously in NYC there's restaurants that only do that on their website, so you can go in blind, as the buyer, to how much you are going to spend :-)