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How to spend money on your friends without it looking like bribery

• xrd 3y ago
  I kept expecting that he would mention Clarence Thomas at some point but he never did.
  • ipsin 3y ago
    Same, the thoughts seems at least inspired by those events. The same insight could be labeled "How to bribe someone by making it seem like friendship."
    • jameshart 3y ago
      I think the author might be making the assumption that ‘if you don’t feel awkward receiving the gift, it can’t be bribery’ - which I don’t think is what the law says, and hardly seems like a sound moral standard either. I suppose the idea is ‘if you don’t feel awkward, then there can’t be any sense of obligation, so no quid pro the quo’. But of course that’s not true. Although I suppose the author only said this makes it look like it’s not a bribe. Presumably it might still actually be one.
  • klyrs 3y ago
    Honestly, it looks like the whole court is crooked at this point. It's up to Congress to keep them in line, and it's up to them to keep Congress in line, but big money runs politics and they're all on the take.
    • lotsofpulp 3y ago
      What have the other Justices done to deserve the label of crooked? Or as crooked as Thomas?
      • klyrs 3y ago
        I wouldn't necessarily say they're all equally crooked, but the unanimous decision in McDonnell vs United States is particularly malodorous. Even my hero RBG accepted gifts that should have been declined. https://ohiocapitaljournal.com/2023/04/26/u-s-supreme-court-justices-take-lavish-gifts-then-raise-the-bar-for-bribery-prosecutions/ https://ohiocapitaljournal.com/2023/04/26/u-s-supreme-court-...
• taubek 3y ago
  I also guess one has to take cultural differences into account. In some cultures one will get offended if you pick up a tab, in others it is expected to split the bill. Am I right?
  • joseda-hg 3y ago
    Yes, and even the way you split bills may be different, depending on the country you may foot the entire bill with the understanding that the other person will do the same the next time, or literally just pay your half (Or just what you ordered, but that may be considered skimpy in some circles)
  • scyzoryk_xyz 3y ago
    You are correct. I have personally offended a guest from Italy when I recently sprung to pay the bill before he got his card out. I thought it would be like a funny “ha ha - I got it” sort of moment, but instead it turned just a bit sour. Turned out he had his mind set on it as a way to express his gratitude, and me interrupting was kind of like taking that away from him. Well, I had my mind set on something similar, so we sort of had our wires crossed.
• buggythebug 3y ago
  I have a friend that could buy everyone in the room a ferrari and still have enough money left to over to buy everyone of their friends a ferrari. He has never paid for food or drinks once. This guide is not for everyone.
  • matheusmoreira 3y ago
    I suppose when one's that rich they want friends who like them for themselves not for the gifts they distribute.
  • cj 3y ago
    Do people expect him to? I'm in the process of selling my company and these weird dynamics are things that make me nervous. Edit: in response to the negative comments and downvotes, of course I want to share the wealth. The problem is a lot of people (or at least a lot of my friends) don't like to feel like they can't stand on their own. Offering to pay for everything all the time is a turn off for a lot of people (on the receiving end).
    • itsoktocry 3y ago
      >Do people expect him to? Imagine not wanting to share trivial amounts of your wealth with your friends. They are friends...right?
      • carimura 3y ago
        wealth is all relative.
      • moduspol 3y ago
        People can absolutely see this as flaunting wealth. It's really not that straightforward.
      • buggythebug 3y ago
        Funny thing is he said if he got married he wouldn't have them sign a prenup because there will be enough money for everyone....
• roenxi 3y ago
  These situations are logically equivalent and the differences are fairly subtle. It would be interesting to know whether most people would be able to pick the difference between the two approaches. I suppose it is a higher-status play to have spare resources available instead of having to deplete your finances to do favours for friends. Maybe one approach suggests a deeper understanding of other people's needs which is good signalling. But at the end of the day if you give someone something with no strings attached, that is what happened. The method isn't so important.
• conformist 3y ago
  The vacation home example somehow actually feels less awkward to me, perhaps because my visit doesn’t change the cost incurred by the friend when they’re renting? (Whereas the restaurant bill feels very awkward and transactional, because the increase is directly related to what I order.)
  • ghaff 3y ago
    I've had friends pick up the meal for a group at the end (as I have as well)--certainly for one other person it's pretty natural so long as one person isn't the one habitually paying. But I agree the restaurant thing feels a bit more transactional. The vacation home thing seems pretty normal. Hey, I'm renting this place and would like some company. As an invitee, I'd probably ask to bring some food or whatever but seems pretty normal.
  • hnbad 3y ago
    Yeah, with the dinner the payment is influenced by whether you come and what you order. With the vacation home it's already paid for. Friends of ours literally invited us to come visit them during their vacation and stay at the rented vacation home because it had a spare bedroom. It didn't feel as awkward as the author makes it out to be, though we did feel the need to ask for reassurance that we weren't inconveniencing them. We also didn't stay for the full term.
  • colanderman 3y ago
    I think the rented vacation home can cut the other way as well -- a friend may feel obligated to come because you spent the money already and expected a guest -- and if they can't come, they'll feel bad about it. The way I navigated a similar situation was -- book the home for a week, and invite several friends to stay for a few nights when/if they're able. The cost isn't an issue then, it's clear that I was benefitting the most (being the only one there for the full week). And because several friends were invited, no one felt a specific obligation to come to make my rental "worth it".
    • Semaphor 3y ago
      > I think the rented vacation home can cut the other way as well -- a friend may feel obligated to come because you spent the money already and expected a guest -- and if they can't come, they'll feel bad about it. Yeah, that was my line of thinking. The invite itself isn’t awkward, sounds fun. But taking as it is without context, it suddenly becomes an obligation forced upon me.
• d--b 3y ago
  I've had friends invite me in houses they rented. I invited friends in houses I rented. I invented people at restaurants, I've been invited to restaurants. I cooked for friends, and friends cooked for me. What's weird? I don't understand. EDIT: I am not talking about reciprocation, I was invited to restaurants I couldn't really afford by people richer than me, I invited poorer people to restaurants and to vacations, etc.
  • thelittleone 3y ago
    I don't mean to be the grammar police... but inventing people at a restaurant is quite a delightful mistake.
  • deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  • gtirloni 3y ago
    In some cultures, it could create a situation where you are showing you're better than me and the person would feel humiliated. It's about the socioeconomic status[0] and how each person values that. In some countries that's valued more than other things like, say, being a kind person. The author of this article seems to have lived in US/Canada which are very capitalist societies where people are expected to work hard and gather a lot of monetary resources. In these societies, showing you're better off than your friend might be considered a bad thing. People often hide things they bought or don't talk about that new house because it would create an awkward situation where people are comparing their socioeconomic status to others. Is it stupid? Yes, but that's life. 0 - https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-psychology-of-social/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-psychology-of...
    • antisthenes 3y ago
      I can't even imagine what the relationship needs to be like where bringing some takeout and a 6-pack of beer would be considered as 1 person showing themselves to be better than another. But it certainly wouldn't be called friendship.
• snapcaster 3y ago
  This was good food for thought, thanks for posting
• EGreg 3y ago
  In Capitalism, you are always encouraged to own instead of rent. The benefits of private ownership are extolled. Capitalists are shocked by “in 2030, you’ll own nothing and be happy.” Ownership is an idea that allows companies that build things to sell excess capacity and luxury stuff. Like real estate in growing economies (China, or the American Dream in past decades of USA). Or like carmakers in the USA until recently. Own that car! Then look how much unused metal is parked on the street most of the day, so carmakers can create more. When self-driving cars come along, our cities will become more beautiful again, with less parking lots and lanes. It’s also inefficient in more ways than one — a study in San Francisco found that 30% of all traffic is just circling looking for parking: https://www.reinventingparking.org/2013/10/is-30-of-traffic-actually-searching-for.html?m=1 https://www.reinventingparking.org/2013/10/is-30-of-traffic-... Ownership is right to exclude all others from using a resource, even if you are not using it. So if I own a bike, no one else who needs it can use it, it just sits in the closet, thus more bikes are required to be sold to society. With CitiBike, or other bike sharing programs, bikes are rented on demand. So one of the benefits is that you can project wealth and excess, and invite your friends to use the thing that no one could be using anyway. The millennials and later generations are fine to rent on demand, even including clothes (“rent the runway”). They join clubs like SoHo club that let them use facilities on demand when they travel. It’s a different approach. And there, since it’s on-demand, there is less waste but also it becomes clear when someone is subsidizing someone else. That said … now that there is so much capacity built (eg commercial and residential real estate) that SOMEONE has to own it, we may as well own it collectively (housing cooperatives) and schedule use of it (eg cooperative time shares) than the exploitative landlord model and airbnb model that raises rents sky-high. Housing cooperatives. Taxi cooperatives. Credit unions. Eliminate the shareholder class, and let everyone own the network. Socialism online, without violence of the State. Someone should build that ;-) PS: It just requires software to self-organize. And it is far better for the environment. Producing one electric car takes a lot of fossil fuels, and if they were shared we’d cut down on production and have more efficient consumption to recoup the costs after 70,000 miles. PPS: Cooking at home is different from the above, because people typically buy food and consume food before it spoils. In fact, the post is wrong — going out to a restaurant is far more expensive than the supermarket food. Most societies until the 1990s did not afford to eat out all the time but they certainly invited people over quite often! House parties also gives a great reason to visit each other.
• deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
• santoshalper 3y ago
  Yeah. Appreciate the hypothesis, but I'm not buying those examples. "Hey I rented a house for the weekend, wanna come party with me on the beach" isn't awkward at all. Asking how much you paid for it would be super weird though.
  • itsoktocry 3y ago
    >"Hey I rented a house for the weekend, wanna come party with me on the beach" isn't awkward at all Agreed. I feel like the proper thing (read: what I personally would do) is to find a way to contribute to the excursion (food? booze? party games?), but there's no obligation, and I wouldn't expect it if the tables were turned.
  • 12907835202 3y ago
    What's most awkward about this for me is the framing. Surely you have to ask if people are free or if they want to come to a beach house BEFORE you book. But maybe the point is you'd use it anyway if they didn't want to come? But then if they said "oh we'd rather just go down to the local" I'd rather than do that and it would be weird cos they'd say, didn't you book a beach house?
• bippingchip 3y ago
  The article overlooks a fundamental side of the social contract that is at least equally, if not more, important: how much time and effort (not money) do personally invest to spend time with your friends. In my view, it's only awkward when the money side of things is not aligned with the personal investment. That dinner example from the article actually shows this: I buy you all Olive garden dinner, or: I take the time to invite you to my home, spend some time clean the house think on what to by and prepare, what music to play, maybe a movie to watch after etc. in order to have a good time together. This is a much more thoughtful and mutually beneficial form of investment in friendship than just throwing money at it. Another example could be: Hey, I bought a new board game (or PS5 or something else), wanna come over and play? You might have spent quite some money, but the goal is to be able to invest in spending time with your friends. The moment that is (or is perceived to be) your main intent, most folks would have a hard time looking at this as bribery.
  • reaperducer 3y ago
    how much time and effort (not money) do personally invest to spend time with your friends. Exactly. If you're worried about the money, then you're not friends, you're acquaintances.
  • carimura 3y ago
    ya exactly. For my close friends who I've known for decades and still hang out with, none of that seems weird (except the Olive Garden part).
  • vorpalhex 3y ago
    I struggled with the restaurant example for this reason. I take an invite to a restaurant as an invite to hang out and socialize. My friend is telling me they want to spend time together and don't want to cook. I don't feel awkward about this at all.
    • lotsofpulp 3y ago
      I would much rather my friends invite me to spend time together while cooking rather than go to a restaurant. For one, the mean will be guaranteed to be delicious and more healthy than the restaurant. Two, it is cheaper. Three, we get to do an activity together as opposed to sit around. Four, at least one person does not have to travel. I could go on, and restaurants are okay and all, but I prefer them for casual acquaintances. With the closest friends, I would hands down pick cooking (assuming eating together is all we are doing).
• bryanlarsen 3y ago
  One option is to say something like "When (you get a 6 figure job, your options vest, ...), you can return the favor or pay it forward". Two birds with one stone: express confidence in the person and make it feel less awkward.
  • actionfromafar 3y ago
    That may or may not work. It can come off as condescending, or not as bad, but still annoying, disconnected from reality.
    • bryanlarsen 3y ago
      It depends on the situation. Often times "pay it forward" by itself is the better approach, but it also imposes an obligation...
    • acapybara 3y ago
      That's very diplomatic and nice of you to say. But what he said is straight-up a terrible idea.
  • colanderman 3y ago
    Maybe it's the way that's worded, but that feels even more awkward / borderline cringey to me. A lot of people (arguably wrongly) tie their self worth to their wealth. This can come off as "when you're worth as much as a human as I am!" Or, for someone in a career where 6 figures do not happen, this is equivalent to telling them that nope, they can never repay this favor! The only time I could see this working is if you had some celebration-worthy achievement which also had money associated with it. Then, throw a party to celebrate your achievement (say, the company you started went public) -- friends like to support those! -- and then it's socially acceptable that you're using the money from said achievement to fund the party.
    • bryanlarsen 3y ago
      > this is equivalent to telling them that nope, they can never repay this favor! But that's exactly what you want. You're trying to spend money on friends without making them feel obligated to spend money on you. Perhaps there's better wording (and I'd like to hear it), but I think the best approach is rather than telling them that they have no obligation to return the favor, shift the obligation to something much less onerous for them by shifting it in time or in kind. A good friend will believe you when you tell them there is no obligation to return the favor, but a more casual friend is less likely to believe you and more likely to think you're shifting the social obligation balance in your favor and might call on it in the future. Better to make it explicit to head that off.
• eljimmy 3y ago
  I think mentioning that you're paying the cheque is tacky. Just invite them and pay for their meal silently as a nice surprise to the end of dinner.
• marpstar 3y ago
  I love picking up the check but I never tell my guests ahead of time. I don't want them compromising on their order, or feeling weird until they absolutely have to. I guess this does require friends who'd be willing/able to pick up their own tab, but it's only a few times a year. I've got a lot more than I need and I'd rather spend it giving friends a night out than on more toys. I don't want or expect the same in return, just a "thanks" and a good time together.
  • AlwaysRock 3y ago
    Eh. Just so you know depending on the cost of the place and the situation of your guests then this can be really stressful for them. I've been in a lot of situations in the past where I've been making okay money but had friend/coworkers who were making very good money. They pick expensive place. It's unclear if this is work or social. I cant really afford to buy a $75 dollar steak, an appetizer, and a bottle of wine but I take the backseat and follow their lead. Bill is expensive. They cover it but the entire dinner I was worried that I might be on the hook for half of a $250-$500 dinner bill. I've been in that same situation and someone said clearly, "Hey this is on me, get whatever you'd like" and I feel comfortable and can actually enjoy it. If they are my friend I take them at their word that they are comfortable paying for it.
    • Aeolun 3y ago
      Honestly, if a place is way out of my price range (what I’m willing to pay, even if I could afford it), that’s something you say before you enter right (so your friend can potentially say they’ll pay for you)? If you do enter and stress out the whole meal I feel you have nobody but yourself to blame.
    • marpstar 3y ago
      Point taken. I'd say I've never brought along anyone who was unclear about who was paying (i.e. these are friends and presume they're paying their own way because this isn't work), but I guess you can never be too sure.
    • mortenjorck 3y ago
• nibbleshifter 3y ago
  This was... Weird. Like, none of the "awkward examples" really track as awkward? I genuinely don't get the point of this article.
  • jameshart 3y ago
    Also the mapping from ‘awkwardness’ to ‘looks like bribery’ seems assumed and not justified.
    • mukti 3y ago
      To me, if you compare an interaction with friends as feeling like bribery, I question the friendship a bit. Maybe its just me, but spending money/time/whatever in any way with/for friends shouldn't feel that way..
      • nibbleshifter 3y ago
        Yeah, if there's such a feeling in what should be a normal interaction, I'd question the friendship
  • gallamine 3y ago
    How would you rate the amount of financial disparity between yourself and friends/family?
    • nibbleshifter 3y ago
      Pretty huge disparity in some cases. It has never really been an issue or caused awkwardness/weirdness.
• steveBK123 3y ago
  The subtlety in this article is real. While logically money is fungible, it is the illusion of not seeing the transaction happens that makes people feel welcome to enjoy hospitality in case of a friends beach house, dinner guest, catered party guest, etc. As soon as there is an explicit, incrementally attributable transaction triggered by their attendance, people often feel compelled to offer cash. If you invite people over for dinner & cook, or its a catered party, they all feel comfortable. As soon as you order takeout or ask what they want, they feel compelled to split the check. Even more so when dining out. Even the difference between ordering an array of dishes in advance vs asking what they want / ordering once they've arrived totally changes how people respond. It gets very awkward when you are trying to host & treat people, but they insist on compensating with cash. For me, I don't get the point of having wealth/resources if I can't share them freely. Especially if you come from a more modest background and now make 5x what some of your friends/family do.
  • ghaff 3y ago
    I generally agree with your points, although in the takeout case, the host can probably communicate fairly clearly that they're going to order takeout (because they don't cook, don't want to bother with a caterer, etc.) and if anyone asks what they owe wave them off and that's that. Though, of course, if they did cook a meal no one would think of paying. (Though informal get-togethers with my friends tend to be pot luck to at least a degree.) Of course, financial situations do matter. Some new grads scraping by in the expensive city are probably not going to operate the same way that generally well-off professionals where everyone knows that a group takeout order really isn't a big deal for the host.
    • steveBK123 3y ago
      It really depends on the person. Half of friends are like whatever. Half will send you a Venmo/zelle for an estimated amount if you refuse. I end up making sure to order modestly with the second half, as its not being generous if they are going to reimburse me later.
    • hgsgm 3y ago
      I once had an amazing meal at someone's house, so I donated to food bank in their honor.
• klntsky 3y ago
  > when you consider the value of your friend’s time, plus the amortized cost of cookware, appliances, furniture, and housing—the home meal could be more expensive than the restaurant meal. For someone who cooks only at parties, sure.
• greybox 3y ago
  The resteraunt one maybe has some weight behind it, but I fail to see how this is awkward: "I rented a vacation home on the cape for the weekend, wanna come hang out on the beach?" In fact, a friend of mine invited me to do the same thing at Christmas time this year, and it didn't feel awkward at all! Maybe this is more of an American culture point?
• Jedd 3y ago
  > Subscribe to my private email list to read articles that were too sensitive to share online. In an article discussing the nuance of language, and leveraging power imbalances for fun and profit, that's a nice way to sign off. Anyway, my first proper introduction to really deeply considered word selection was during the 90's BBS era when someone organising a social event -- that was necessarily targeted at a bunch of (probably) socially inept people, myself included -- explained to me that they avoided any conventional phrasing like 'come and join us' as it instantly implied there's an 'us' that they weren't already a part of. Such a small observation at the time, but had a big impact.
• zokier 3y ago
  Isn't the article ignoring marginal vs fixed cost? Adding extra plate to dinner table or having extra guest in a cottage has small marginal cost vs having additional guest in restaurant or renting one room larger vacation home.
• swe_dima 3y ago
  I am in love with travelling, and one of my dreams is travelling with friends. But my friends, not being from a 1st world country or having a high paying job, can't afford that. I have tried on several occasions offering to pay for the trip, but unfortunately, like the article says, most people don't feel comfortable if you do that.
• jameshart 3y ago
  I mean, it can definitely still look like bribery. In business relationships we all know that inviting a potential client out to dinner, paid for by the vendor, creates at least the possible impression of impropriety unless the amount spent is relatively modest. Doing the same for, say, the government inspector from your industry’s regulatory body… looks even worse. If the vendor has a sponsorship arrangement with a sports team that means they already have access to a corporate box, that doesn’t change the fact that the hospitality offer looks… dubious. The nature of your ownership/rental of the assets involved has no bearing on this. The nature of how it affects your power relationship with the recipient is what matters. The standard - especially when it comes to dealing with government employees - is ‘avoid even the appearance of impropriety’, right? Or at least I certainly thought it was until reading about the Clarence Thomas situation. Apparently there are different rules for billionaires.
  • dclowd9901 3y ago
    Right. What makes it look like bribery isn’t the transaction. It’s the nature of the relationship itself. Is there a great earnings imbalance? Is there ever a way for the friend to treat you in kind? Are you and this friend close friends? I wouldn’t think twice about making the trip to a summer house one of my good friends rented. I might offer to kick some money over, but it wouldn’t feel awkward or obligated. Just want to show my appreciation. If this is someone I don’t particularly like, it changes the whole exchange. Why am I going? Why do they want me to go? With the change of the type of relationship, none of it is kosher.
  • metalspot 3y ago
    > avoid even the appearance of impropriety the real world standard is don't do anything that knowingly or intentionally violates the law or your employers policies. anyone can falsely claim that what you are doing is wrong but as long as it doesn't break employer policy or law then they are wrong. in the corporate world it would be suicidal to "avoid the appearance of impropriety" because your competitors will slaughter you while they are following the letter of the law.
    • jameshart 3y ago
• bastawhiz 3y ago
  I love everything Bill writes. One of the things that I very much miss about working at Stripe is getting to read the very thoughtful notes that he would send out.
• scyzoryk_xyz 3y ago
  I highly recommend an episode of How To with John Wilson titled “How to Split the Check” https://youtu.be/LsMdnCO7AOA https://youtu.be/LsMdnCO7AOA
• virtualritz 3y ago
  I don't understand this. I never had this problem. When you invite people for dinner, it's assumed you cook (and this pay for the food) anywhere I lived. Europe, India, Asia that is. Drinks are also assumed to be on the host but most people will bring a bottle if they want to drink alcohol. But that's still no expected from the host unless explicitly verbalized with the invitation. When I invite eight people, each of them (or each couple) don't don't know how many we will be all together. When I shout people at a restaurant, I just secretly pay when I come back from the bathroom, after desserts have been ordered.
  • dnh44 3y ago
    As far as I can tell in the latin part of Europe I think it's well understood that if you invite people to a restaurant for dinner it means that you will be paying (especially if the word invite is used). In the UK it depends on the background of people, and language would also make a difference. "Do you all want to grab some dinner" is different to "I'd like to invite you all out to dinner" >But that's still no expected from the host unless explicitly verbalized with the invitation. In Europe there would definitely be an expectation that alcohol would be provided (although perhaps not all of the alcohol depending on various factors). It would also be expected that guests bring a bottle of wine or flowers or something to that effect. That small gift should be separate to any alcohol brought for the purposes of consumption on the evening.
    • ilyt 3y ago
      I dunno if I'd generalize it to "Europe". Here (Poland), at least with my parents generation there is really no such expectation, the "giving back" is just inviting them on a different occasion. Bringing anything extra of course happens but it was strictly optional and often just "look at what tasty stuff I made', like a bottle of home-made alcohol or some smoked ham. On some occasion like christmas it was often coordinated beforeand, like we all go to christmas to a certain relative but everyone was bringing some specific christmas dish, as to avoid any duplicates.
    • virtualritz 3y ago
      > In Europe there would definitely be an expectation that alcohol would be provided [...] It would also be expected that guests bring a bottle of wine or flowers or something to that effect. Nope. I was born and grew up in Germany. My parents have friends in France and Italy whose kids and whos families I grew up with. I am regularly in Italy and France still but also other parts of Europe, particularly the south and Scandinavia and I have friends everywhere on this continent so dinner invitations when traveling are frequent. My experience over 40 years of this contradicts what you say.
• sdfghswe 3y ago
  > It’s not merely a matter of expense; when you consider the value of your friend’s time, plus the amortized cost of cookware, appliances, furniture, and housing—the home meal could be more expensive than the restaurant meal. No it couldn't, this is complete bullshit. The amortization from a one time on something that you use every day for many years use is nothing. This person sounds like he never actually cooks. That's all I'm saying.
  • michaelt 3y ago
    I agree it's inconceivable that the incremental cost of cooking a meal couldn't possibly exceed the price of a restaurant meal. Presumably the author is thinking of the kind of people who buy a bigger home to have space for entertaining, and/or upgrade their home to impress their guests. If you brought a bigger house to have a dining room for guests? Or brought a house with a bigger kitchen and more storage space, to store your vast collection of glasses and chairs that usually go unused? If you don't have guests often, that might not be very cost-effective.
    • deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
• photochemsyn 3y ago
  Having the ability to shower friends and family with gifts - and doing so - is a fundamental requirement for social status in every human society. The king who invites all the nobles to a great feast, the Hollywood socialite who hosts the most splendid post-Oscar party, the Pacific Northwest tribal chieftan who has the largest potlatch celebration, are all acting out this tradition. The latter may be less familiar: > "A potlatch involves giving away or destroying wealth or valuable items in order to demonstrate a leader's wealth and power. Potlatches are also focused on the reaffirmation of family, clan, and international connections, and the human connection with the supernatural world. Potlatch also serves as a strict resource management regime, where coastal peoples discuss, negotiate, and affirm rights to and uses of specific territories and resources. (wiki)" Distribution of resources within societies has historically varied quite a bit, so in the more egalitarian societies, the situation is more reciprocal, with people giving as many gifts as they receieve on average. Highly unequal societies end up with 'noblesse oblige' behavior as gifts tend to flow from the wealthy to the poor, which has been used as a justification for the aristocrat/serf system of feudalism. These patterns of behavior are a kind of societal glue, and when they break down it tends to lead to revolutions and overthrow of the social order, as in late 18th century France, early 20th century Russia, etc. This probably also accounts for some of the failures of authoritarian state communism, as all resources end up controlled by state authorities (e.g. it's probably hard to throw a private party for friends in North Korea). In terms of day-to-day living in democratic capitalist societies, people instinctively understand this dynamic and much of the awkwardness this article discusses relates to the fact that people are always keeping account of who gives what to who, even if it's just unconscious behavior. It also explains why inter-class friendships can be much more difficult to maintain than any other type, i.e. inter-faith, inter-race, etc.
• flamebreath447 3y ago
  It might not be a popular opinion but all the comments about cultural differences, or needing to be careful with communication seem wrong to me. Someone offering you a gift to pay shouldn’t come off as rude or a power play of wealth. It shouldn’t be a surprise to you that some people are more well off. If a kind gesture makes you feel awkward, guilty or lesser that’s insecurity on you, not them. Maybe, just maybe, you are bad at receiving gifts. Let’s be charitable and stop assuming people are doing something weird. Yes we can communicate better but we don’t need to walk on eggshells just to be kind to friends. I absolutely love treating friends. I intentionally invite people to dinner, don’t tell them ahead of time that I’m paying so they order exactly what they would have normally. I excuse myself to the restroom and ask the waiter to use my card at the end. The few times I’ve had people had an issue or feel bad, I was extremely clear with them that 1. I want to, it brings me joy to give my friends gifts 2. I do not expect anything in return, I just wanted to spend time and enjoy a dinner with them 3. I purposely budget to do this, it’s the same as me inviting them over for cooked dinner 4. If they are deeply hurt or bothered by it I have no problem with them paying the portion and won’t do it again if it wasn’t something that made them feel cared for or enjoyed I’ve never had anyone ever come back to point (4)
  • stcroixx 3y ago
    To me, it’s respectful to offer the intended recipients of your gift the choice to accept or not rather than forcing something on them they didn’t consent to.
    • DangitBobby 3y ago
      The good thing about consent in this case is they can just "return" the gift by paying you their portion of the bill, and if they don't consent isn't really violated. You went from owing the restaurant to owing them. But why take the joys of life and make them difficult? Let your friend enjoy himself by being generous.
      • stcroixx 3y ago
        While this behavior is joyous and enjoyablefor you, not everyone may share your point of view. Some find joy in paying their own way. Let others choose for themselves instead of deciding for them.
• petesergeant 3y ago
  Dating can be complicated like this. Last time I was single, I had quite a bit more money than the people I was dating, and if we went for dinner, I wanted to eat at much nicer places than they did. The magic solution here was to say simply "I'm going to choose the place, but give me $20/$50 towards dinner" and then to pay for everything else ... it made stuff so much less weird, even if dinner ended up being an order of magnitude more expensive.
  • matheusmoreira 3y ago
    Same. I'd always just pay for everything though. Much easier.
• floatrock 3y ago
  In a round-about way, this article is really talking about how to holistically enrich one's life: there's other forms of Capital beyond Financial Capital, and something out there makes us feel icky when there's too much focus on Financial Capital. Depending on the specific guru you're reading, there's 3/5/8/whatever "Forms of Capital". A 5-framework is something like: - Financial Capital - Material Capital - Social Capital - Intellectual Capital - Human Capital An 8-framework might split something like "Human" into Experiential, Spiritual, Cultural, and Living. Point is, when we adopt the everything-is-transactional lens, we tend to see everything as exchanges of Financial Capital. And we lose sight of our other deep monkey-brain needs, like a sense of community and social belonging. So inviting someone to your personal beachhouse rather than vacation rental doesn't "feel" like bribery because it's closer to trading Social or Experiential Capital rather than Financial Capital. And, for better or worse, "bribes" is (colloquially) closely tied just to Financial Capital. (It becomes nefarious when you exploit this feeling mismatch to, say, trade types of capital with your judicial buddy in ways that look awfully close to a supreme influence on a political case...)
• deleted 3y ago
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• AlwaysRock 3y ago
  > > I’m taking you and 12 friends out to dinner at Olive Garden. I’m paying the check. Wanna come? > To me this feels… tacky? Like I feel obligated to at least offer to cover part of the check right? Maybe it was growing up poor but... Nope. If you want to do something nice for your friends then great. I'm glad I'm your friend.
• Hugsun 3y ago
  I highly recommend the book Debt: The First 5000 Years for anyone that finds these things interesting. It is full of similar anecdotes from around the world and throughout history. In some cultures, settling all debts with a friend is akin to declaring the friendship over. As owing or being owed something is a type of bond which is broken when nothing is owed. Breaking the bond implies that you want to break all ties with the person as both are free to walk away. They often manage this by taking turns borrowing small items while making sure that there is always an imbalance. Regarding the OP, there are so many norms and expectations regarding money and they are so varied around the world. My way of dealing with uncertainties like this is just to talk about them in an impartial way.
  • hgsgm 3y ago
    > In some cultures, settling all debts with a friend is akin to declaring the friendship over. This is also how you terminate employment.
  • ilyt 3y ago
    I have that thing when I'm absolutely fine with some friend owing me something but cannot tolerate otherwise and it bothers me to no end.
• yieldcrv 3y ago
  The dinner party example isnt so cut and dry It does feel more comfortable to not be expected to be paying for anything But its also common to chip in, amongst my loosely affiliated friends. Or its a potluck to begin with. When its the host cooking, yeah you’re just there and partaking. On the other far extreme, its my friends have private chefs, and I know thats even more expensive than the host cooking, but yeah that also has no charge expected.
• JohnFen 3y ago
  > To me this feels… tacky? Like I feel obligated to at least offer to cover part of the check right? What's tacky about that? Why feel the obligation? These are your friends, right? Although perhaps different sets of friends have different social mores. In my group, doing things like that isn't rare, although more commonly the offer to pick up the check isn't part of the invite, but is just done when the check comes. Nobody feels strange about it because (like "lending" money to each other), everyone does things like this occasionally and averaged over the years, we pretty much all break even anyway.
  • OkayPhysicist 3y ago
    This is definitely the preferable, and normal, approach, but it raises issues when your friend group is of varying socioeconomic situations. Less affluent members may deprive themselves at dinner, or worse, politely decline the invitation all together, because of concern about their ability to pay, despite the more affluent members being more than happy to cover their meal because they enjoy their company.
    • JohnFen 3y ago
      My group of friends definitely aren't all of the same economic status. I can see how that might be an issue for some. In our case, it's really not. Perhaps because we've been friends for decades, and at various times we've all been flat broke or flush, so no single person is considered the "rich" one or the "poor" one. We just don't think in that way. However, friends who don't have as much disposable income still "chip in" in different ways. Holding the occasional dinner party, providing things in their specialty (carpentry, home repair, etc.) This is why nobody cares or keeps track. Everyone participates in one way or another. It all evens out in the wash.
• Aeolun 3y ago
  Hmm, I kinda feel like me directly paying for friends (or telling them I’ll pay) sets up an unhealthy expectation. On one hand I want to do things with people (even if they can’t pay themselves), on the other hand, I don’t want them to come to me and expect me to pay.
• SubiculumCode 3y ago
  rich people problems
• _pastel 3y ago
  Some ways to make recipients feel more comfortable: - You can suggest some other contribution. "Would you mind bringing snacks? / Would you mind handling music on the drive? / Would you mind giving X a ride?" - You can allow them to reciprocate in less expensive situations, like taking the check when you are at a cheaper place.
• beebeepka 3y ago
  Now, I made a little money, good But I still want to live in the hood But buying new fly shit Is just like inviting ants to a picnic There's just too many sets And now I'm getting those kidnap threats
• bawolff 3y ago
  Makes sense. If you are spending money, people want to split the cost. If you are sharing something you already have and would have regardless, even if it costed money originally, no need to split costs.
• barrysteve 3y ago
  Shallow meaning. - Ownership is also a negative, you pay for upkeep, maintenance, admin and inventory of a house. You keep the wealth AND the costs. - When you go to someone's house for dinner, you're not being bribed, you're relating to the owner of the house. The way you relate to the owner and their friends, influences your future friendship. - The home owner is not temporarily letting friends access his house. His friends can't rifle through his drawers and live at his house. He is inviting them in for dinner. At most, you are sharing a portion of his house and his hospitality for an evening. - If you buy stuff for me, I'll say thank you, but honestly I don't always want what you intend to buy for me. If you're not going to relate to my meaning and values, even when you're being "generous", then what's the point of being a friend? Money and physical goods among non-poor adults, are not a "default win" in friendships. The real generousity in buying a gift is relating to what the other person cares about and giving a small token of that. Wealthy people have many friends. It's always true, unless the wealthy person rejects it. People elect themselves to be friends with the wealthy. Money, gifts and generosity can't buy friendship from people who don't relate the way you do. I get this site is mostly about programming, startups and money, but jeepers. Did we lose the middle way and common sense so quickly?
• deleted 3y ago
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• WesolyKubeczek 3y ago
  I was expecting an article about how to spend money on your friends so they don't feel like you're going to ask them favours in return. Turns out the article is not about this at all. But. Dammit, I can likely afford to take some friends to a (local) restaurant and pay the whole bill, no questions asked about contents of those fancy drinks. I'm very unlikely to have time or skill to cook for 14 myself. I would go to a restaurant with someone after making sure that them volunteering to pay the bill is not a "yes, but actually no". If someone invited me to a home party I would certainly feel more than obligated to participate in bringing in produce, booze, and sharing the labour of preparing the food and cleaning up after. I can afford to rent some place to escape, but owning a whole cottage on the cape? Are you saying it's better to own a cottage just so that invitation is not awkward for you? I can't wrap my head around the concept. I would surely be curious about the costs of having such a thing. The whole feel of the piece is incredibly first world to me. The author (and their friends) seem like people who would smirk at you if you only had one yacht, or if your golf course was too small. Book a hotel, and it's awkward. Just buy a cottage instead.
• wnolens 3y ago
  I've had to accept that I cannot spend as much money on my friends/family as I'm willing or able to. It's really made me reconsider the value of money. If I can buy a house in the city or in a desirable neighborhood, but none of my friends/family can then having money/using it in that way is isolating. And I've arrived at identical solutions - cooking instead of picking up the tab, sharing apartment rentals that I was going to rent anyway. Additionally: When someone gets married or has a child it's acceptable to give a larger gift.
• squokko 3y ago
  I had a friend who was the son of a billionaire who threw elaborate dinner parties at his house and he very generously asked for $20 for each attendee. The food obviously cost more than $20 but paying the $20 made us feel like we weren't freeloading.
• Freire_Herval 3y ago
  Friend offered me 10 billion dollars of cash in several suit cases. Felt awkward so I didn't accept.
• fiftyfifty 3y ago
  Just have some kids! My adult children are always happy to let us spend money on them. Come to think of it, my wife and I still let our parents pay for stuff as well, even though they really don't need to anymore.
• motohagiography 3y ago
  This is pet issue of mine, as I am often a guest and have rarely had the means to reciprocate the hospitality I have been offered. Even times when I did have something that was mine to share, the percieved power imbalance in sharing it was sometimes odd in the relationship. However, I almost always accept hospitality because I know what a pleasure it is to give it, and I never feel like I owe someone anything as a result, as it would be a huge insult to them to interpret their generosity as having strings. As I have become older, I've also learned to be a bit suspicious of people who don't accept hospitality or insist weirdly on splitting down to the cent because it is a good indicator they are reserving some moral license to betray or otherwise screw you later. I've heard them say it's a matter of being equal, yet they haven't considered that in rejecting my goodwill they have admitted that they have wasted my time. Picking up a tab is not settling debts either, that's taking an opportunity to add some value to the time you spend together. I know the feeling of the chips being down all too well, and interpeting someones generosity as pity, but that's the sting of pride, and it deprives people who actually like you of the enjoyment of being able to be some relief. The best way I have seen money spent on others is, "this thing is happening, it's already settled and done and everything is taken care of, we just need good company to be able to enjoy it, if you are able, you should really join us, there are no costs except getting there and maybe some drinks." I think that approach works all the way from concerts to holidays.
  • hammyhavoc 3y ago
    >As I have become older, I've also learned to be a bit suspicious of people who don't accept hospitality or insist weirdly on splitting down to the cent because it is a good indicator they are reserving some moral license to betray or otherwise screw you later. This is a matter of background. In typical cliche style, I "grew up poor". Liverpool has some extremely poor areas. People try to have some dignity and don't like to accept what they feel is charity, and any generosity is usually seen as a gesture of trust and warmth by the person giving it. E.g., someone "buys a round" of drinks for everyone in your group, then someone else buys the next round, then the next etc, but if you don't buy a round then you're considered rude. My problem is that I never liked to drink quickly, thus it could sometimes be misinterpreted as rude or negative. Is it logical? No, not really, it's a cultural thing. Growing up poor, my family and friends had the sentiment that your own problems are your own problems and not anybody else's burden to carry. I also hate getting birthday presents because I feel like someone felt obligated to give in to societal expectation, probably over-spent on something I probably won't like and spent too much time on picking it out. Equally, I'm the guy that'd give you the shirt off his own back if it'd make you happy, and like to spoil others, but again, a lot of people grew up poor, I have made family and friends feel very uncomfortable at times by singling them out for special treatment. That sentiment about people giving your their last penny or the shirt off their own back rings true for a lot of folks around here. Nobody wants to accept it though! Social etiquette is a fucking complex tapdance, and with autism, I find it even harder lol.
• SergeAx 3y ago
  Now, THIS is the first compelling reason to own a yacht and not charter it. Never thought of it this way.
• w10-1 3y ago
  It's not the bribery but the reciprocity and equality. When does it create an obligation? Another example is bringing food or drink. Generally when we bring comestibles to share, no one expects to have to reciprocate, because we're all sharing. But if you offer the host a gift, it creates entanglements. Generally I try to shift the frame to the shared activity - eating, brainstorming, gaming, etc. so people feel that if they are participating, they are contributing. For dinners out, I don't think rich people should presume they have the right to pay before anyone gets a chance to contribute. It takes away the agency of others.
• ZoomZoomZoom 3y ago
  It's really easy. If you directly spend more than your friend could ever afford to take from their disposable income if you switched places and while being overly emotional/drunk/etc., you're taking on the risk of hurting their dignity. Taking your friend for a ride in your expensive car should be fine, giving them the keys for a week is absolutely not. If you really want to lash out, like @ilyt said, make it invisible: spend on preparations or takedown, maybe arrange a little happy accident, or just spend normally and donate the rest to your friend's cause of choice. First world problem, if I ever saw one. Now, talking about power dynamics, meaning of work and success for interpersonal relationship, it's a whole another level of complexity that's important, but it's not just about the money.
• tumnus 3y ago
  This must be a specific cultural thing. In my group of friends and family, generous offers like those used in the examples aren't seen as 'tacky'. They're just generous and speak to a spirit of wanting to share.
• penjelly 3y ago
  interesting observations, my guess is ownership implies the sense of regularity and therefore less pressure on the individual to attend. Backing out last minute means less if theyre heading out to the cottage as usual anyway, youre just a tagalong after all.