8 ms·

>losing market share every year for a decade (Microsoft doesn't even seem to care afaict) Of course they care. Windows, at one point, had 95% market share. D

>losing market share every year for a decade (Microsoft doesn't even seem to care afaict) Of course they care. Windows, at one point, had 95% market share. Do you believe that to be sustainable? Do we want that? No, in both cases. They are still dominant in desktop computing. >offers 10x the performance the average person will need Why is buying something 10x more powerful than you'd need at 2x the price "good value"? >a better OS/ecosystem This is debatable. I don't find MacOS to be all that great, personally. >once Windows enters into a death spiral in a few years You should have a look at Windows' desktop market share and get back to us. They still own the space.

IceHegel 4y ago
If they cared there wouldn’t be tabloid news in everything spare panel.
- PretzelPirate 4y ago
  I commented on thus somewhere else, but it seems fitting here as well: my non-technical parents love the tabloid news that Windows shows, and they love that candy crush is pre-installed. I suspect most users are not the same as the HM crowd.
  - bdcravens 4y ago
    Most mobile phone users aren't in the HN crowd, yet the iPhone continues to sell well. Why is this true, when a $199 unlocked Android is more than sufficient?
damagednoob 4y ago
> Why is buying something 10x more powerful than you'd need at 2x the price "good value"? I would argue in the same way that buying an expensive pair of boots that last longer than a cheap pair to be good value. > You should have a look at Windows' desktop market share and get back to us. They still own the space. What is the trend line and how much is that space growing by relative to other devices like mobile phones and tablets?
- Arrath 4y ago
  > I would argue in the same way that buying an expensive pair of boots that last longer than a cheap pair to be good value. While a fair argument, I think its also fair to counter that the conditions in which you may use your boots don't arbitrarily change and get less efficient and more difficult over time. Sure maybe sometimes you'll be hiking through mud but that will dry out and get back to normal, whereas software might turn into quicksand as hardware gets older. Future proofing your hardware is effective, but only to a point.
- tstrimple 4y ago
  > The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money. Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. Those were the kind of boots Vimes always bought, and wore until the soles were so thin that he could tell where he was in Ankh-Morpork on a foggy night by the feel of the cobbles. But the thing was that good boots lasted for years and years. A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that'd still be keeping his feet dry in ten years' time, while a poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet. This was the Captain Samuel Vimes "Boots" theory of socioeconomic unfairness.
raverbashing 4y ago
> You should have a look at Windows' desktop market share and get back to us. They still own the space. Ah yes the dwindling, profit starved desktop market Yes they're still at a high percentage, of an ever smaller market Not going the way of the vinyl record yet, but who knows?
- bdcravens 4y ago
  Keep in mind this includes laptops, which still sell well enough. (though declining)
matheusmoreira 4y ago
> Of course they care. If they care they sure don't act like it. Microsoft is clearly squeezing Windows users for whatever revenue is left. Nothing else explains the user hostility, backwards compatibility breaks and unending advertising and data collection.
- PretzelPirate 4y ago
  My parents aren't technical and don't see the builtin ads and news feed as being user hostile. They like that candy crush is pre-installed and that Windows shows them random spam news articles that they find interesting. I hate it and use a Mac, but I suspect most users aren't like you and me.
  - baremetal 4y ago
    My parents are in their 70s and have run Linux for the last 15 years. Supported by me, of course. They don't know the difference.
  - windowsrookie 4y ago
    In the short-term, Targeting older people (like your parents) who don't care works for Microsoft. But eventually they won't be around anymore. Take a look around and most people under 30 seem to have a MacBook. At least here in my area of the United States.
    - neogodless 4y ago
      I always wonder how people meet enough random samplings of young people to get this information! I have 9 nieces and nephews, plus some neighbor friends that have kids. Of them, maybe 2 or 3 use iPads. The ones that have laptops (other than school provided) have them for PC gaming, and they run Windows. I guess I'm in a different area of the U.S. from you, based on my anecdotal data.
      - windowsrookie 4y ago
        I should clarify, When I say people under 30 I'm talking about young adults who are purchasing their own Laptop. Not children. So the 21-30 age group.
meindnoch 4y ago
>Why is buying something 10x more powerful than you'd need at 2x the price "good value"? M1 performance won't be more than you need for long. When the dev community finishes transitioning to M1/2, that will be the performance baseline for lazy websites and electron apps. Intel laptops will have their CPUs pegged to 100% constantly when running more than one tab in Chrome. We're already seeing this at my company. Intel performance regressions are discovered the last minute before release, because everyone is using M1. And the solution is usually just to turn off the offending feature for Intel Macs. It's legacy.
seanmcdirmid 4y ago
> You should have a look at Windows' desktop market share and get back to us. They still own the space. Who buys desktops anymore? Sure, it’s a market, but not the one it used to be.
- bdcravens 4y ago
  "Desktop" typically includes laptops as part of the category, not separating them (since they usually don't have different OSes) https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/worldwide https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/worldwide
bdcravens 4y ago
I think normal people (ie non-developers) are less concerned about the performance, as the battery life and the need to almost never need a fan (and keep it on your lap comfortably). You can commonly find Macbook Airs at $800, and I doubt many are buying sub-$400 laptops, unless they are going with low-end Chromebooks, in which the Chromebook vs Windows is a reverse spin on whether consumers are overpaying vs what they really need. Dropping from 95% to 57%, I don't think it's unreasonable that a time will come when Windows no longer has a majority.
- rjsw 4y ago
  I'm just back home from a long vacation. My computer while I was away was my $250 Pinebook Pro, it worked fine for everything that I wanted to do, that included a fair bit of development work.
  - bdcravens 4y ago
    Anyone who is a developer is likely comfortable with Linux. I feel most non-devs could probably make do with a basic distro, but there's plenty of small gotchas that we don't even give a second thought to. Pine is clear who their audience is: "This is limited quantity production due to a severe global electronic components shortage. Please do not order the Pinebook Pro if you’re seeking a substitute for your X86 laptop, or are just curious and you’re ordering it with an intent to file a return/refund return request. These pre-orders are meant for enthusiasts familiar with the Arm architecture and interested in the PineBook Pro for this specific reason. Thank you." However, this does underpin the point that ARM-based computers are extremely viable.
- ldhough 4y ago
  > almost never need a fan While I am also concerned about and need the extra performance, this point seems somewhat underappreciated in discussions about the ARM macbooks. Fan noise is so incredibly annoying and distracting and I think not having it improves productivity.
rsynnott 4y ago
> Why is buying something 10x more powerful than you'd need at 2x the price "good value"? So a MacBook Air is 2x the price of the very cheapest laptops. Trouble with the very cheapest laptops, though, is that they use the very cheapest chips; Intel is not making a lot of money on those (if they're Intel at all; these days a lot of that category is ARM Chromebooks). The MacBook Air's actual competition is more capable laptops in a broadly similar price range. These use more expensive, higher margin, usually Intel, chips, like the MBA did pre-M1. That has to be a concern for Intel.
- diffeomorphism 4y ago
  Only in the US. A macbook air is much, much more expensive in most of the rest of the world. E.g. m2 air with bare minimum upgrades is 2000€. That is much more than double. So sure it is good, but at that price point that is the bare minimum.
  - rainclouds 4y ago
    I noticed this when traveling. It’s almost like they never price adjust to currency outside the US. Sticker shock looking at Apple product prices in Japan.
0zemp2c 4y ago
> Of course they care. for the last ten years Microsoft has pushed all of its effort into Azure, which is coincidentally based on Linux (!) accept it, they gave up on Windows. Windows 11 is my proof...a lame re-skinning which can't even displace Windows 10 > You should have a look at Windows' desktop market share and get back to us. They still own the space. no one under 25 uses Windows! Go look at any college classroom and get back to us! Windows has been in decline for ten years, the stats aren't a fluke seriously...just walk into any college classroom in America... go see what ecosystem anyone under 25 is invested in...now tell me what the future looks like
- selectodude 4y ago
  I am a lifelong Mac user. My work laptop is Windows. Always has been, always will be. My employer probably buys more computers every week than I will buy in my entire life. Nobody in the space gives a crap what laptops people buy for personal use once every 5-7 years.
  - 0zemp2c 4y ago
    > Nobody in the space gives a crap what laptops people buy for personal use once every 5-7 years. maybe they don't, but Intel should btw my employer (Fortune 100 co) has switched to deploying Macs and will probably deploy close to 100k, all the Windows laptops are being timed out
- mike_hearn 4y ago
  Azure hypervisor runs on a custom build of Windows.
- alpaca128 4y ago
  > just walk into any college classroom in America... America isn't the world. Walk into any classroom outside the US and you'll see something very different.
  - 0zemp2c 4y ago
    the third world isn't buying Intel's top-of-the-line CPUs... go look at high-end Lenovo laptops with Intels' best CPUs...$3k+++ Intel and AMD won't last long selling cheap CPUs to a shrinking Windows market overseas

IceHegel 4y ago

If they cared there wouldn’t be tabloid news in everything spare panel.

PretzelPirate 4y ago
I commented on thus somewhere else, but it seems fitting here as well: my non-technical parents love the tabloid news that Windows shows, and they love that candy crush is pre-installed. I suspect most users are not the same as the HM crowd.
- bdcravens 4y ago
  Most mobile phone users aren't in the HN crowd, yet the iPhone continues to sell well. Why is this true, when a $199 unlocked Android is more than sufficient?

damagednoob 4y ago

> Why is buying something 10x more powerful than you'd need at 2x the price "good value"? I would argue in the same way that buying an expensive pair of boots that last longer than a cheap pair to be good value. > You should have a look at Windows' desktop market share and get back to us. They still own the space. What is the trend line and how much is that space growing by relative to other devices like mobile phones and tablets?

Arrath 4y ago
> I would argue in the same way that buying an expensive pair of boots that last longer than a cheap pair to be good value. While a fair argument, I think its also fair to counter that the conditions in which you may use your boots don't arbitrarily change and get less efficient and more difficult over time. Sure maybe sometimes you'll be hiking through mud but that will dry out and get back to normal, whereas software might turn into quicksand as hardware gets older. Future proofing your hardware is effective, but only to a point.
tstrimple 4y ago
> The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money. Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. Those were the kind of boots Vimes always bought, and wore until the soles were so thin that he could tell where he was in Ankh-Morpork on a foggy night by the feel of the cobbles. But the thing was that good boots lasted for years and years. A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that'd still be keeping his feet dry in ten years' time, while a poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet. This was the Captain Samuel Vimes "Boots" theory of socioeconomic unfairness.

raverbashing 4y ago

> You should have a look at Windows' desktop market share and get back to us. They still own the space. Ah yes the dwindling, profit starved desktop market Yes they're still at a high percentage, of an ever smaller market Not going the way of the vinyl record yet, but who knows?

bdcravens 4y ago
Keep in mind this includes laptops, which still sell well enough. (though declining)

matheusmoreira 4y ago

> Of course they care. If they care they sure don't act like it. Microsoft is clearly squeezing Windows users for whatever revenue is left. Nothing else explains the user hostility, backwards compatibility breaks and unending advertising and data collection.

PretzelPirate 4y ago
My parents aren't technical and don't see the builtin ads and news feed as being user hostile. They like that candy crush is pre-installed and that Windows shows them random spam news articles that they find interesting. I hate it and use a Mac, but I suspect most users aren't like you and me.
- baremetal 4y ago
  My parents are in their 70s and have run Linux for the last 15 years. Supported by me, of course. They don't know the difference.
- windowsrookie 4y ago
  In the short-term, Targeting older people (like your parents) who don't care works for Microsoft. But eventually they won't be around anymore. Take a look around and most people under 30 seem to have a MacBook. At least here in my area of the United States.
  - neogodless 4y ago
    I always wonder how people meet enough random samplings of young people to get this information! I have 9 nieces and nephews, plus some neighbor friends that have kids. Of them, maybe 2 or 3 use iPads. The ones that have laptops (other than school provided) have them for PC gaming, and they run Windows. I guess I'm in a different area of the U.S. from you, based on my anecdotal data.
    - windowsrookie 4y ago
      I should clarify, When I say people under 30 I'm talking about young adults who are purchasing their own Laptop. Not children. So the 21-30 age group.

meindnoch 4y ago

>Why is buying something 10x more powerful than you'd need at 2x the price "good value"? M1 performance won't be more than you need for long. When the dev community finishes transitioning to M1/2, that will be the performance baseline for lazy websites and electron apps. Intel laptops will have their CPUs pegged to 100% constantly when running more than one tab in Chrome. We're already seeing this at my company. Intel performance regressions are discovered the last minute before release, because everyone is using M1. And the solution is usually just to turn off the offending feature for Intel Macs. It's legacy.

seanmcdirmid 4y ago

> You should have a look at Windows' desktop market share and get back to us. They still own the space. Who buys desktops anymore? Sure, it’s a market, but not the one it used to be.

bdcravens 4y ago
"Desktop" typically includes laptops as part of the category, not separating them (since they usually don't have different OSes) https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/worldwide https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/worldwide

bdcravens 4y ago

I think normal people (ie non-developers) are less concerned about the performance, as the battery life and the need to almost never need a fan (and keep it on your lap comfortably). You can commonly find Macbook Airs at $800, and I doubt many are buying sub-$400 laptops, unless they are going with low-end Chromebooks, in which the Chromebook vs Windows is a reverse spin on whether consumers are overpaying vs what they really need. Dropping from 95% to 57%, I don't think it's unreasonable that a time will come when Windows no longer has a majority.

rjsw 4y ago
I'm just back home from a long vacation. My computer while I was away was my $250 Pinebook Pro, it worked fine for everything that I wanted to do, that included a fair bit of development work.
- bdcravens 4y ago
  Anyone who is a developer is likely comfortable with Linux. I feel most non-devs could probably make do with a basic distro, but there's plenty of small gotchas that we don't even give a second thought to. Pine is clear who their audience is: "This is limited quantity production due to a severe global electronic components shortage. Please do not order the Pinebook Pro if you’re seeking a substitute for your X86 laptop, or are just curious and you’re ordering it with an intent to file a return/refund return request. These pre-orders are meant for enthusiasts familiar with the Arm architecture and interested in the PineBook Pro for this specific reason. Thank you." However, this does underpin the point that ARM-based computers are extremely viable.
ldhough 4y ago
> almost never need a fan While I am also concerned about and need the extra performance, this point seems somewhat underappreciated in discussions about the ARM macbooks. Fan noise is so incredibly annoying and distracting and I think not having it improves productivity.

rsynnott 4y ago

> Why is buying something 10x more powerful than you'd need at 2x the price "good value"? So a MacBook Air is 2x the price of the very cheapest laptops. Trouble with the very cheapest laptops, though, is that they use the very cheapest chips; Intel is not making a lot of money on those (if they're Intel at all; these days a lot of that category is ARM Chromebooks). The MacBook Air's actual competition is more capable laptops in a broadly similar price range. These use more expensive, higher margin, usually Intel, chips, like the MBA did pre-M1. That has to be a concern for Intel.

diffeomorphism 4y ago
Only in the US. A macbook air is much, much more expensive in most of the rest of the world. E.g. m2 air with bare minimum upgrades is 2000€. That is much more than double. So sure it is good, but at that price point that is the bare minimum.
- rainclouds 4y ago
  I noticed this when traveling. It’s almost like they never price adjust to currency outside the US. Sticker shock looking at Apple product prices in Japan.

0zemp2c 4y ago

> Of course they care. for the last ten years Microsoft has pushed all of its effort into Azure, which is coincidentally based on Linux (!) accept it, they gave up on Windows. Windows 11 is my proof...a lame re-skinning which can't even displace Windows 10 > You should have a look at Windows' desktop market share and get back to us. They still own the space. no one under 25 uses Windows! Go look at any college classroom and get back to us! Windows has been in decline for ten years, the stats aren't a fluke seriously...just walk into any college classroom in America... go see what ecosystem anyone under 25 is invested in...now tell me what the future looks like

selectodude 4y ago
I am a lifelong Mac user. My work laptop is Windows. Always has been, always will be. My employer probably buys more computers every week than I will buy in my entire life. Nobody in the space gives a crap what laptops people buy for personal use once every 5-7 years.
- 0zemp2c 4y ago
  > Nobody in the space gives a crap what laptops people buy for personal use once every 5-7 years. maybe they don't, but Intel should btw my employer (Fortune 100 co) has switched to deploying Macs and will probably deploy close to 100k, all the Windows laptops are being timed out
mike_hearn 4y ago
Azure hypervisor runs on a custom build of Windows.
alpaca128 4y ago
> just walk into any college classroom in America... America isn't the world. Walk into any classroom outside the US and you'll see something very different.
- 0zemp2c 4y ago
  the third world isn't buying Intel's top-of-the-line CPUs... go look at high-end Lenovo laptops with Intels' best CPUs...$3k+++ Intel and AMD won't last long selling cheap CPUs to a shrinking Windows market overseas