7 ms·

When I was an undergrad I worked with a prestigious professor whom I respected greatly. One day, I stumbled into lab, apparently looking fairly love-struck (i'

by dekhn 4y ago

When I was an undergrad I worked with a prestigious professor whom I respected greatly. One day, I stumbled into lab, apparently looking fairly love-struck (i'm a man, and was seeing a new girlfriend), and he said: "dekhn, if you want to be successful in science, you can't have a wife or a girlfriend or kids. They are a distraction and to be successful, you have to dedicate your whole life to science. Nights, evenings, everything. A wife and kids will just waste your time". I'm glad I ignored his advice and got married to that new girlfriend (and had kids, after establishing my career). He later narrowly missed out on the Nobel Prize and married his postdoc. But he was right: to be truly successful in science today, unless you're a charismatic genius, requires an extraordinary level of dedication- and a lot of family support. That said I'm surrounded, in my job, with successful women scientists who came from academia and have kids. This sometimes leads to weekend meetings where both of us end up saying "Oh, I have to go now to take my kid to soccer"... [edit: I realized I left out an important bit. Both my wife and I got phds and have professional jobs. But I optimized for high salary and status, while she optimized for "freedom"- the freedom to drive kids around to activities, etc. Which in some sense, I guess, is just another anecdote supporting the paper.

chrisbrandow 4y ago
That's incredibly stupid advice. I got my Ph.D. at Caltech, and as far as I know, every Nobel Prize winner in the chemistry department had a wife and children.
- Misdicorl 4y ago
  Its callous, not stupid. Consider whether those individuals best work (nobel prize granting e.g.) came before or after they started families. Consider how involved they can be with their families given how often you likely saw them around the department. Yes, it can be done. But its hard. And you're unlikely to be ultra successful if you devote the time your family deserves (not to mention the luck/charisma/skill/dedication needed on top of that).
  - leroy-is-here 4y ago
    Maybe it's that being married and having children helped them be successful.
  - rayiner 4y ago
    Albert Einstein was married and had a kid by the time of his “miracle year” in 1905.
    - willcipriano 4y ago
      Albert's wife agreed to this: A. You will make sure: 1. that my clothes and laundry are kept in good order; 2. that I will receive my three meals regularly in my room; 3. that my bedroom and study are kept neat, and especially that my desk is left for my use only. B. You will renounce all personal relations with me insofar as they are not completely necessary for social reasons. Specifically, You will forego: 1. my sitting at home with you; 2. my going out or travelling with you. C. You will obey the following points in your relations with me: 1. you will not expect any intimacy from me, nor will you reproach me in any way; 2. you will stop talking to me if I request it; 3. you will leave my bedroom or study immediately without protest if I request it. D. You will undertake not to belittle me in front of our children, either through words or behavior.
strangeloops85 4y ago
What exactly does 'truly successful' mean here? If Nobel prize is the standard that's ridiculous. As someone who is a fairly successful (by conventional metrics) tenured academic at a top-10 school in the physical sciences, this was really dumb advice but not atypical from previous generations (along with: "make sure you have a wife at home to take care of everything" which, btw, was the more common advice to get, since almost every male academic had a wife and kids) It is quite possible to get grants, do valuable work, advance your field (and get awards, if that's your jam) and still live a pretty normal life. In my case my spouse is also a successful (by conventional metrics) academic, and we have kids. It's not without challenges, but it's quite plenty of positives. And neither of us are charismatic geniuses. We have talents, sure, but the more important thing is that we are organized. The unequal impact highlighted here is very real. As the man in a dual-career academic couple, I have actively worked (along with my wife of course) to counter it. Simple examples include strongly encouraging and supporting a spouse, including crucially owning/ being the primary point person on childcare - especially needed when they are in the midst of grant applications or important conference presentations, even in early childhood years.
- dekhn 4y ago
  are you a professor at a tier-1 university (you say "tenured academic at a top-10 school in the physical sciences")? Is it in an expensive city? what's your h-index? How much time do you spend writing papers and going to conferences, versus doing research. Is it lab work or theory? how much money do you bring in? Do you work weekends? Do you ever have to go to a conference and it means your spouse has to do extra work around the house?
  - strangeloops85 4y ago
    Yes. Very expensive. h-index > 35. It varies. Both. ~$0.5-1M/year. Sure. Yes, and vice versa for my spouse as well.
    - dekhn 4y ago
      You run a lab on $1M/year (grant money?). When I was a PI over a decade ago, that's enough to employ at best 2-4 research scientists. What I actually meant was salary- because if you live in an expensive city, it's almost impossible to buy a house on an academic salary. Certainly you could buy in the worst part of town, far from your institution, with higher crime rates and lower quality of houses...
lbeltrame 4y ago
I was told the same: that if I weren't able to give up everything "I would not be successful". 8 months later and with a breakdown, I was fired from that lab. Better, because people were forced to work (literally forced: even if you had nothing to do you needed to stay until 8pm) at least 12 hours per day, no weekends, no days off, nothing. And my scientific productivity tanked. I managed to somehow continue to a PhD and then I even got a permanent position, but for that mindset I am "failed scientist": I'm over 40, I don't lead anyone, I don't have grants (only two failed ones that caused me so much stress that I didn't want to do them again), nor I have a teaching position (I would gladly get one if it were just teaching, and not the hell of grant seeking). I do the same stuff I was doing during my postdoc years, with a little more job security, of course. FTR, I made sure that my connections outside work were nowhere near labs, and nowhere around science. Much better for work-life balance. Academia seems so obsessed with "excellence" it's not even funny. And that excellence needs to be obtained at absolutely any cost. Probably I wouldn't have chosen this career had I known beforehand what I was getting into.
1letterunixname 4y ago
Perhaps he was either a) jealous, b) skewing to anti-social, c) rationalizing obsession in one area to the detriment of another, or d) lacked time management skills. What's the point to achievement if you have an empty house and empty life? That is another kind of poverty.

by dekhn 4y ago

chrisbrandow 4y ago

That's incredibly stupid advice. I got my Ph.D. at Caltech, and as far as I know, every Nobel Prize winner in the chemistry department had a wife and children.

Misdicorl 4y ago
Its callous, not stupid. Consider whether those individuals best work (nobel prize granting e.g.) came before or after they started families. Consider how involved they can be with their families given how often you likely saw them around the department. Yes, it can be done. But its hard. And you're unlikely to be ultra successful if you devote the time your family deserves (not to mention the luck/charisma/skill/dedication needed on top of that).
- leroy-is-here 4y ago
  Maybe it's that being married and having children helped them be successful.
- rayiner 4y ago
  Albert Einstein was married and had a kid by the time of his “miracle year” in 1905.
  - willcipriano 4y ago
    Albert's wife agreed to this: A. You will make sure: 1. that my clothes and laundry are kept in good order; 2. that I will receive my three meals regularly in my room; 3. that my bedroom and study are kept neat, and especially that my desk is left for my use only. B. You will renounce all personal relations with me insofar as they are not completely necessary for social reasons. Specifically, You will forego: 1. my sitting at home with you; 2. my going out or travelling with you. C. You will obey the following points in your relations with me: 1. you will not expect any intimacy from me, nor will you reproach me in any way; 2. you will stop talking to me if I request it; 3. you will leave my bedroom or study immediately without protest if I request it. D. You will undertake not to belittle me in front of our children, either through words or behavior.

strangeloops85 4y ago

What exactly does 'truly successful' mean here? If Nobel prize is the standard that's ridiculous. As someone who is a fairly successful (by conventional metrics) tenured academic at a top-10 school in the physical sciences, this was really dumb advice but not atypical from previous generations (along with: "make sure you have a wife at home to take care of everything" which, btw, was the more common advice to get, since almost every male academic had a wife and kids) It is quite possible to get grants, do valuable work, advance your field (and get awards, if that's your jam) and still live a pretty normal life. In my case my spouse is also a successful (by conventional metrics) academic, and we have kids. It's not without challenges, but it's quite plenty of positives. And neither of us are charismatic geniuses. We have talents, sure, but the more important thing is that we are organized. The unequal impact highlighted here is very real. As the man in a dual-career academic couple, I have actively worked (along with my wife of course) to counter it. Simple examples include strongly encouraging and supporting a spouse, including crucially owning/ being the primary point person on childcare - especially needed when they are in the midst of grant applications or important conference presentations, even in early childhood years.

dekhn 4y ago
are you a professor at a tier-1 university (you say "tenured academic at a top-10 school in the physical sciences")? Is it in an expensive city? what's your h-index? How much time do you spend writing papers and going to conferences, versus doing research. Is it lab work or theory? how much money do you bring in? Do you work weekends? Do you ever have to go to a conference and it means your spouse has to do extra work around the house?
- strangeloops85 4y ago
  Yes. Very expensive. h-index > 35. It varies. Both. ~$0.5-1M/year. Sure. Yes, and vice versa for my spouse as well.
  - dekhn 4y ago
    You run a lab on $1M/year (grant money?). When I was a PI over a decade ago, that's enough to employ at best 2-4 research scientists. What I actually meant was salary- because if you live in an expensive city, it's almost impossible to buy a house on an academic salary. Certainly you could buy in the worst part of town, far from your institution, with higher crime rates and lower quality of houses...

lbeltrame 4y ago

I was told the same: that if I weren't able to give up everything "I would not be successful". 8 months later and with a breakdown, I was fired from that lab. Better, because people were forced to work (literally forced: even if you had nothing to do you needed to stay until 8pm) at least 12 hours per day, no weekends, no days off, nothing. And my scientific productivity tanked. I managed to somehow continue to a PhD and then I even got a permanent position, but for that mindset I am "failed scientist": I'm over 40, I don't lead anyone, I don't have grants (only two failed ones that caused me so much stress that I didn't want to do them again), nor I have a teaching position (I would gladly get one if it were just teaching, and not the hell of grant seeking). I do the same stuff I was doing during my postdoc years, with a little more job security, of course. FTR, I made sure that my connections outside work were nowhere near labs, and nowhere around science. Much better for work-life balance. Academia seems so obsessed with "excellence" it's not even funny. And that excellence needs to be obtained at absolutely any cost. Probably I wouldn't have chosen this career had I known beforehand what I was getting into.

1letterunixname 4y ago

Perhaps he was either a) jealous, b) skewing to anti-social, c) rationalizing obsession in one area to the detriment of another, or d) lacked time management skills. What's the point to achievement if you have an empty house and empty life? That is another kind of poverty.