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I do this for a living and no, most office towers from the last 50 years are not ripe for mixed use living. It can be done, but the unit economics are sobering.

I do this for a living and no, most office towers from the last 50 years are not ripe for mixed use living. It can be done, but the unit economics are sobering. Historic buildings lay out well, but it's still very expensive. We are converting a historic building in downtown St Louis right now opening in June, and it is very expensive, historic tax credits mandatory to make the numbers work. Shameless plug: www.victorstl.com Very expensive to convert the space, different utility demands (many more bathrooms), mechanical ventilation needs are very different, office towers have very high opex, requires a team to run them, and typically have exorbitant RE taxes. All that for the privilege of a sub-par living experience, i.e. rents will be low relative to market. severely limited daylight, no balcony or fresh air (windows aren't operable). Many office towers and their associated leases were vanity projects for corporations wanting high profile space in a high profile areas to attract employees and prestige, but business culture has, in large part, moved on. My small business moved from the "elite" downtown high rise to a boring little office park closer to our team's homes, and nearly every aspect is significantly comparatively better. Shorter commute, no high-rise elevator wait, no walk to the garage (and another elevator and wait to congestion to exit at quittin' time), no panhandling when you want to step outside for fresh air. I do miss the high rise view, but otherwise my office and business functions exactly the same, with the added perk of being able to make it to my kids' activities whenever I want. Elite is no longer "main and main hi-rise" but working wherever you want whenever you want. Elite is Zooming in from an Aspen CO ski lodge. Has been for some time, but the daily expectation for in-person meetings has been cut. Now, revisit the high rise calculus again...

ghaff 4y ago
Yeah, our Boston office in the Seaport is great for the (mostly younger) employees who live in the city and can walk or take public transit. And, for our customers coming in for a day or two meeting--which is the main reason we have an office there. For everyone else, our office in the suburbs is much handier. Not that I or a lot of people regularly go into an office any longer, but I'm a pretty easy 30 minute drive to our suburban office or a 2 hour trip into the city (whether I take the train/transit or just drive in).
- TMWNN 4y ago
  >Yeah, our Boston office in the Seaport is great for the (mostly younger) employees who live in the city and can walk or take public transit. And, for our customers coming in for a day or two meeting--which is the main reason we have an office there. For everyone else, our office in the suburbs is much handier It seems to me that Sun got this right two decades ago, when it used its Java Card technology to set up mini offices around the Bay area, at any of which employees could log in and get their personal desktop. <https://www.alamy.com/telecommute14-062-suzukijpg-david-white-of-livermore-ca-works-on-a-sunray-using-his-java-card-at-the-iwork-cafe-sun-is-on-the-leading-edge-when-it-comes-to-telecommuting-more-commonly-called-telework-these-days-because-it-empasses-not-just-working-from-home-but-working-from-anywhere-a-clients-office-a-starbucks-an-airport-lounge-some-13900-sun-employees-43-percent-of-its-workforce-are-involved-in-its-iwork-mobile-work-program-they-work-from-home-some-of-the-time-and-use-any-of-suns-various-flexible-work-centers-when-they-need-an-office-the-company-has-115-flexible-office-locat-image544602504.html https://www.alamy.com/telecommute14-062-suzukijpg-david-whit...> I wonder if Oracle continued this?
  - ghaff 3y ago
    It's largely unnecessary today. "Everyone" has a laptop and, for many of us, 90%+ of what we do day to day is in a browser. The only limits to hoteling is people who really want to have a personal space, people whose job requires specific hardware, people who prefer specific keyboard/monitor/etc. configurations, or people who just prefer to be in a fixed team environment. Urban offices mostly suck if you don't live in the city. But it doesn't make a lot of sense to go into a suburban office if the people you work with aren't there.
Animatronio 4y ago
If I may ask - is there demand for bedrooms & kitchens with no windows? I'm looking at this apartment: https://victorstl.com/apartments/?spaces_sort=bd_asc&detail=292429&spaces_tab=plan-detail https://victorstl.com/apartments/?spaces_sort=bd_asc&detail=... I understand why it is like that, I just want to know if customers are interested in this kind of floor plan. For the record, I'm in the EU and customers demand natural light (and ventilation) for every room, including bathrooms. Major PITA if I may say so.
- ethagknight 3y ago
  Yes there is demand, and it's something we paid special attention to. With this specific building, we have 11 foot ceilings, oversized historic windows into the living space much larger than typical multifamily, and then barn door openings to maximize light penetration into the space. Also, we enlarged the center courtyard to improve light, we have a huge rooftop amenity package including a rooftop dog park and pickle ball court, indoor secure parking; basically we are going overboard on every other aspect of urban living. It's funny, people may insist on windows in the bedroom, but then put up black out curtains... Regarding code items, we have operable windows and mechanical makeup air. Also at 8 stories we are considered high-rise by St. Louis city code (its a tall 8 stories) so we have to have complete sprinkler coverage, automated fire control and notifier systems, etc.
- nradov 4y ago
  Most US building codes require that bedrooms have windows for safety so that they can be used for fire rescue. A building permit for bedrooms without windows would usually require a code variance with additional fire protection.
  - red-iron-pine 4y ago
    Same in Canada. Obviously a little different if you're in a high rise, but what's the point of being in a tall building without windows? Why pay the premium to be in a highrise with a view that looks like a basement?
- ghaff 4y ago
BurningFrog 4y ago
So then the options are: - Lower existing office rents until you get tenants. - Tear down and build housing. - Leave empty for decades.
- ethagknight 3y ago
  Pretty much, it's bleak. As a housing developer, part of the equation is to forget the existing high-rise altogether and buy something easier to demolish, like an old parking garage or lot. Why start $20mm-$50mm in the hole?

ghaff 4y ago

Yeah, our Boston office in the Seaport is great for the (mostly younger) employees who live in the city and can walk or take public transit. And, for our customers coming in for a day or two meeting--which is the main reason we have an office there. For everyone else, our office in the suburbs is much handier. Not that I or a lot of people regularly go into an office any longer, but I'm a pretty easy 30 minute drive to our suburban office or a 2 hour trip into the city (whether I take the train/transit or just drive in).

TMWNN 4y ago
>Yeah, our Boston office in the Seaport is great for the (mostly younger) employees who live in the city and can walk or take public transit. And, for our customers coming in for a day or two meeting--which is the main reason we have an office there. For everyone else, our office in the suburbs is much handier It seems to me that Sun got this right two decades ago, when it used its Java Card technology to set up mini offices around the Bay area, at any of which employees could log in and get their personal desktop. <https://www.alamy.com/telecommute14-062-suzukijpg-david-white-of-livermore-ca-works-on-a-sunray-using-his-java-card-at-the-iwork-cafe-sun-is-on-the-leading-edge-when-it-comes-to-telecommuting-more-commonly-called-telework-these-days-because-it-empasses-not-just-working-from-home-but-working-from-anywhere-a-clients-office-a-starbucks-an-airport-lounge-some-13900-sun-employees-43-percent-of-its-workforce-are-involved-in-its-iwork-mobile-work-program-they-work-from-home-some-of-the-time-and-use-any-of-suns-various-flexible-work-centers-when-they-need-an-office-the-company-has-115-flexible-office-locat-image544602504.html https://www.alamy.com/telecommute14-062-suzukijpg-david-whit...> I wonder if Oracle continued this?
- ghaff 3y ago
  It's largely unnecessary today. "Everyone" has a laptop and, for many of us, 90%+ of what we do day to day is in a browser. The only limits to hoteling is people who really want to have a personal space, people whose job requires specific hardware, people who prefer specific keyboard/monitor/etc. configurations, or people who just prefer to be in a fixed team environment. Urban offices mostly suck if you don't live in the city. But it doesn't make a lot of sense to go into a suburban office if the people you work with aren't there.

Animatronio 4y ago

If I may ask - is there demand for bedrooms & kitchens with no windows? I'm looking at this apartment: https://victorstl.com/apartments/?spaces_sort=bd_asc&detail=292429&spaces_tab=plan-detail https://victorstl.com/apartments/?spaces_sort=bd_asc&detail=... I understand why it is like that, I just want to know if customers are interested in this kind of floor plan. For the record, I'm in the EU and customers demand natural light (and ventilation) for every room, including bathrooms. Major PITA if I may say so.

ethagknight 3y ago
Yes there is demand, and it's something we paid special attention to. With this specific building, we have 11 foot ceilings, oversized historic windows into the living space much larger than typical multifamily, and then barn door openings to maximize light penetration into the space. Also, we enlarged the center courtyard to improve light, we have a huge rooftop amenity package including a rooftop dog park and pickle ball court, indoor secure parking; basically we are going overboard on every other aspect of urban living. It's funny, people may insist on windows in the bedroom, but then put up black out curtains... Regarding code items, we have operable windows and mechanical makeup air. Also at 8 stories we are considered high-rise by St. Louis city code (its a tall 8 stories) so we have to have complete sprinkler coverage, automated fire control and notifier systems, etc.
nradov 4y ago
Most US building codes require that bedrooms have windows for safety so that they can be used for fire rescue. A building permit for bedrooms without windows would usually require a code variance with additional fire protection.
- red-iron-pine 4y ago
  Same in Canada. Obviously a little different if you're in a high rise, but what's the point of being in a tall building without windows? Why pay the premium to be in a highrise with a view that looks like a basement?
ghaff 4y ago

BurningFrog 4y ago

So then the options are: - Lower existing office rents until you get tenants. - Tear down and build housing. - Leave empty for decades.

ethagknight 3y ago
Pretty much, it's bleak. As a housing developer, part of the equation is to forget the existing high-rise altogether and buy something easier to demolish, like an old parking garage or lot. Why start $20mm-$50mm in the hole?