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The fact that these cars pass safety certification, makes me question certifiers. It's illegal to look at your phone while driving, for good reason, but it's le

The fact that these cars pass safety certification, makes me question certifiers. It's illegal to look at your phone while driving, for good reason, but it's legal to fiddle with a damn computer screen, because it's part of the car. I predict it's a matter of time before we'll see a correlation between number of crashes, and cars with touchscreens.

geraldwhen 3y ago
In many states you can absolutely use your phone while driving, either to call someone or actively use gps without a window mount. What’s explicitly prohibited is texting/writing and driving.
- justeleblanc 3y ago
  The US is not a beacon of consumer safety. In my European country, having your phone in your hand while driving is illegal.
  - nosequel 3y ago
    I live in a state where phone use is legal and I am so jealous of you right now. I see near misses on the road every-single-day.
  - martyvis 3y ago
    Same here in Australia. I actually think we have developed the technology (and the matching legislation) that allows pole mounted cameras to detect this while driving at 110kmh down the expressway. I know many people that have been "busted" and even though I use a handsfree holder, just placing (when you forgot to do so before you drive off) is just as illegal here. I did laugh when of course sometimes they would pickup someone holding a chocolate bar while driving. While not necessarily the best thing to do with the one hand, not illegal all the same.
  - kube-system 3y ago
    There are US states that have the same law. The way that the separations of powers work in the US, basically all driving laws are set by the states. The rules for driving can and do change when you cross state lines in the US, sometimes significantly. It really doesn't make any sense to talk about specific driving laws in the US as a monolith.
- bluGill 3y ago
  In all states where it is allowed you can be sure there is at least one lobby group (probably bicycles) working to make it illegal.
  - nativeit 3y ago
    I wish them all the best here in NC, but the auto dealer’s association is easily one of the most influential lobbying groups in the state, which is why Tesla can’t even sell their own cars here.
zamnos 3y ago
Do auto insurance rates on touch screen cars show this to be the case? Cars with touch screens have been around long enough that they should have data, and consequently be charging more for insurance on those cars if they are is that is indeed the case.
- satellite2 3y ago
  They are. But car with touchscreen are more powerful which is always linked to higher fees. So hard to say which feature causes what.
  - jml78 3y ago
    I owned a new honda civic before I bought a Tesla model 3. It is only one data point but my insurance went down when I got the Tesla.
- xmcqdpt2 3y ago
  Auto insurance models like many other insurance models are often not that smart. The insurance company will charge more of there is more claims payout, but they also want to attract certain client segments and compete with competitors. Also, claim rates have all kind of confounding factors. Maybe a car is safer but more prone to theft, or more dangerous but easier to repair, or has better controls but is driven by inexperienced drivers etc. They need to make a profit over their whole insured client population, not necessarily over any given segment or car model, so I wouldn't use insurance rates as data points in determining car safety without a lot of caveats.
  - LorenPechtel 3y ago
    Yup, what sort of driver a given car model attracts is a substantial factor in the rates. Just try to insure a sports car to see this!
Archelaos 3y ago
> but it's legal to fiddle with a damn computer screen, because it's part of the car. In Germany it is only legal to operate a touch screen while driving for essential functions with only a brief glance. For example, a judgement was handed down against a Tesla driver who tried to switch up the interval of the windscreen wiper via touchscreen and ran off the road in the process. Source: https://www.burhoff.de/asp_weitere_beschluesse/inhalte/5723.htm https://www.burhoff.de/asp_weitere_beschluesse/inhalte/5723.... (in German)
- dontlaugh 3y ago
  Which would have never happened if the car had normal physical controls for that function. Mine has a little rocker on the wiper stalk.
  - epistasis 3y ago
    If you know ahead of time how to do it. If you are in a new car, discovering which of 12 different switches, knobs, and dials adjusts the wiper speed is somewhat baffling. I always spend 5 minutes in a new rental car trying to memorize how to do this, but if it's been a couple days since I rented the car and I'm trying to do it for the first time, it is not something that I try to attempt to adjust while still on the road.
    - dontlaugh 3y ago
      Sure. But for physical controls it's generally easy to discover as well. Indeed it only takes a few minutes in an unfamiliar car, after which it's easy to use the controls with at most a passing glance.
- ClumsyPilot 3y ago
  The judgement should have been against tesla, not the customer. Wipers are essential and should not require fiddling
  - phpisthebest 3y ago
mytailorisrich 3y ago
This obviously depends on the jurisdiction. Here in the UK: There is a specific ban on using phones while driving. There is an obligation to drive with "due care and attention" so taking your eyes and attention off the road to spend time fiddling with a computer screen can be an offence as well.
- rlpb 3y ago
  In practice the bar for "due care and attention" is low (ie. you have had to be really, really careless or really, really inattentive to be convicted). The courts in the UK hold drivers only to a pretty low standard in general. That's why they had to pass a separate law to ban handheld use of mobile phones.
  - mytailorisrich 3y ago
    This can be a fixed penalty (no court involved unless driver does not accept penalty). So I think it really depends on what the driver was actually doing (especially impact on driving), how the driver responds to being stopped by police, and whether police is having a bad day.
  - ThisIsNotNew 3y ago
    An example of how oblivious drivers on phones are is this: I parked (where I could not be seen by the van) to warn oncoming drivers of mobile speed van 50 metres ahead over brow of hill. While nearly all made eye contact with me and speeders instantly slammed the brakes, two drivers on phones (both women with kids), despite me flashing my headlamps AND putting my hand out of my car and waving at them, they still did not look at me or put down the phone. This was after the penalty was doubled to 6 points. (And yes I know its not legal for me to warn drivers of speed traps like this)
ConcernedCoder 3y ago
The fact that my touch screen will often display a distracting message that reminds me that it's unsafe to take my eyes off the road while driving and require someone to touch the "ok" button to dismiss it is the epitome of dangerous stupidity...
- jclardy 3y ago
  Yes, it is the most useless thing ever. I think my truck displays it maybe once per day? It isn't every drive, which ends up making it worse because I look to tap on the radio and I have to first reach across the entire display to hit OK, then wait for it to load, then tap the radio...If it was every drive I could just be programmed to tap the button without looking at it, which of course defeats the purpose of it in the first place.
  - brokenmachine 3y ago
    Don't complain or they'll make it a captcha. "Please click all the images of bicycles to access volume controls".
- LorenPechtel 3y ago
  At least my Corolla doesn't persist the screen--and it's instantly dismissed if I go into reverse and the backup camera activates. The driver assist stuff is fairly mild which is good because it's prone to errors. It routinely gets confused about what constitutes a lane, beeping about my not following something that isn't actually a lane. Usually something on the road but I've been scolded for not respecting the shadow of an electric wire. It also thinks I'm not holding the wheel when I'm in a very gentle high speed turn--there's a spot where the expressway gently curves that's very prone to triggering it. The adaptive cruise is pretty good, it's been fooled once by two cars moving in front of me at the same time and it appears to have no understanding of cars with huge speed differences. (Bozos that enter the road at half the speed limit.) It also refuses to operate below 28 mph which I dislike because cruise control is good for using the engine to hold your speed down on hills--and there's a certain 25 mph mountain road I sometimes drive. Yeah, maybe the adaptive stuff can't work but at least give me basic control so I don't need to use my brakes!
phkahler 3y ago
>> I predict it's a matter of time before we'll see a correlation between number of crashes, and cars with touchscreens. Insurance companies should have this data already. They should start setting rates based on it.
Rediscover 3y ago
Honda Prelude. Maybe 1985. Everything off for me. Radio controls, lift my hand off the shifter, vs my Toyota: extend a finger. Hated that Honda.
nostrademons 3y ago
The studies have already been done, and touchscreens are pretty clearly less safe than buttons: https://www.themanual.com/auto/touchscreen-in-car-less-safe-than-buttons/ https://www.themanual.com/auto/touchscreen-in-car-less-safe-... https://actslaw.com/dashboard-touch-screens-safety-hazard/ https://actslaw.com/dashboard-touch-screens-safety-hazard/ https://www.ala.co.uk/connect/in-car-touchscreens-more-dangerous-than-drink-or-drug-driving https://www.ala.co.uk/connect/in-car-touchscreens-more-dange...

geraldwhen 3y ago

In many states you can absolutely use your phone while driving, either to call someone or actively use gps without a window mount. What’s explicitly prohibited is texting/writing and driving.

justeleblanc 3y ago
The US is not a beacon of consumer safety. In my European country, having your phone in your hand while driving is illegal.
- nosequel 3y ago
  I live in a state where phone use is legal and I am so jealous of you right now. I see near misses on the road every-single-day.
- martyvis 3y ago
  Same here in Australia. I actually think we have developed the technology (and the matching legislation) that allows pole mounted cameras to detect this while driving at 110kmh down the expressway. I know many people that have been "busted" and even though I use a handsfree holder, just placing (when you forgot to do so before you drive off) is just as illegal here. I did laugh when of course sometimes they would pickup someone holding a chocolate bar while driving. While not necessarily the best thing to do with the one hand, not illegal all the same.
- kube-system 3y ago
  There are US states that have the same law. The way that the separations of powers work in the US, basically all driving laws are set by the states. The rules for driving can and do change when you cross state lines in the US, sometimes significantly. It really doesn't make any sense to talk about specific driving laws in the US as a monolith.
bluGill 3y ago
In all states where it is allowed you can be sure there is at least one lobby group (probably bicycles) working to make it illegal.
- nativeit 3y ago
  I wish them all the best here in NC, but the auto dealer’s association is easily one of the most influential lobbying groups in the state, which is why Tesla can’t even sell their own cars here.

zamnos 3y ago

Do auto insurance rates on touch screen cars show this to be the case? Cars with touch screens have been around long enough that they should have data, and consequently be charging more for insurance on those cars if they are is that is indeed the case.

satellite2 3y ago
They are. But car with touchscreen are more powerful which is always linked to higher fees. So hard to say which feature causes what.
- jml78 3y ago
  I owned a new honda civic before I bought a Tesla model 3. It is only one data point but my insurance went down when I got the Tesla.
xmcqdpt2 3y ago
Auto insurance models like many other insurance models are often not that smart. The insurance company will charge more of there is more claims payout, but they also want to attract certain client segments and compete with competitors. Also, claim rates have all kind of confounding factors. Maybe a car is safer but more prone to theft, or more dangerous but easier to repair, or has better controls but is driven by inexperienced drivers etc. They need to make a profit over their whole insured client population, not necessarily over any given segment or car model, so I wouldn't use insurance rates as data points in determining car safety without a lot of caveats.
- LorenPechtel 3y ago
  Yup, what sort of driver a given car model attracts is a substantial factor in the rates. Just try to insure a sports car to see this!

Archelaos 3y ago

> but it's legal to fiddle with a damn computer screen, because it's part of the car. In Germany it is only legal to operate a touch screen while driving for essential functions with only a brief glance. For example, a judgement was handed down against a Tesla driver who tried to switch up the interval of the windscreen wiper via touchscreen and ran off the road in the process. Source: https://www.burhoff.de/asp_weitere_beschluesse/inhalte/5723.htm https://www.burhoff.de/asp_weitere_beschluesse/inhalte/5723.... (in German)

dontlaugh 3y ago
Which would have never happened if the car had normal physical controls for that function. Mine has a little rocker on the wiper stalk.
- epistasis 3y ago
  If you know ahead of time how to do it. If you are in a new car, discovering which of 12 different switches, knobs, and dials adjusts the wiper speed is somewhat baffling. I always spend 5 minutes in a new rental car trying to memorize how to do this, but if it's been a couple days since I rented the car and I'm trying to do it for the first time, it is not something that I try to attempt to adjust while still on the road.
  - dontlaugh 3y ago
    Sure. But for physical controls it's generally easy to discover as well. Indeed it only takes a few minutes in an unfamiliar car, after which it's easy to use the controls with at most a passing glance.
ClumsyPilot 3y ago
The judgement should have been against tesla, not the customer. Wipers are essential and should not require fiddling
- phpisthebest 3y ago

mytailorisrich 3y ago

This obviously depends on the jurisdiction. Here in the UK: There is a specific ban on using phones while driving. There is an obligation to drive with "due care and attention" so taking your eyes and attention off the road to spend time fiddling with a computer screen can be an offence as well.

rlpb 3y ago
In practice the bar for "due care and attention" is low (ie. you have had to be really, really careless or really, really inattentive to be convicted). The courts in the UK hold drivers only to a pretty low standard in general. That's why they had to pass a separate law to ban handheld use of mobile phones.
- mytailorisrich 3y ago
  This can be a fixed penalty (no court involved unless driver does not accept penalty). So I think it really depends on what the driver was actually doing (especially impact on driving), how the driver responds to being stopped by police, and whether police is having a bad day.
- ThisIsNotNew 3y ago
  An example of how oblivious drivers on phones are is this: I parked (where I could not be seen by the van) to warn oncoming drivers of mobile speed van 50 metres ahead over brow of hill. While nearly all made eye contact with me and speeders instantly slammed the brakes, two drivers on phones (both women with kids), despite me flashing my headlamps AND putting my hand out of my car and waving at them, they still did not look at me or put down the phone. This was after the penalty was doubled to 6 points. (And yes I know its not legal for me to warn drivers of speed traps like this)

ConcernedCoder 3y ago

The fact that my touch screen will often display a distracting message that reminds me that it's unsafe to take my eyes off the road while driving and require someone to touch the "ok" button to dismiss it is the epitome of dangerous stupidity...

jclardy 3y ago
Yes, it is the most useless thing ever. I think my truck displays it maybe once per day? It isn't every drive, which ends up making it worse because I look to tap on the radio and I have to first reach across the entire display to hit OK, then wait for it to load, then tap the radio...If it was every drive I could just be programmed to tap the button without looking at it, which of course defeats the purpose of it in the first place.
- brokenmachine 3y ago
  Don't complain or they'll make it a captcha. "Please click all the images of bicycles to access volume controls".
LorenPechtel 3y ago
At least my Corolla doesn't persist the screen--and it's instantly dismissed if I go into reverse and the backup camera activates. The driver assist stuff is fairly mild which is good because it's prone to errors. It routinely gets confused about what constitutes a lane, beeping about my not following something that isn't actually a lane. Usually something on the road but I've been scolded for not respecting the shadow of an electric wire. It also thinks I'm not holding the wheel when I'm in a very gentle high speed turn--there's a spot where the expressway gently curves that's very prone to triggering it. The adaptive cruise is pretty good, it's been fooled once by two cars moving in front of me at the same time and it appears to have no understanding of cars with huge speed differences. (Bozos that enter the road at half the speed limit.) It also refuses to operate below 28 mph which I dislike because cruise control is good for using the engine to hold your speed down on hills--and there's a certain 25 mph mountain road I sometimes drive. Yeah, maybe the adaptive stuff can't work but at least give me basic control so I don't need to use my brakes!

phkahler 3y ago

>> I predict it's a matter of time before we'll see a correlation between number of crashes, and cars with touchscreens. Insurance companies should have this data already. They should start setting rates based on it.

Rediscover 3y ago

Honda Prelude. Maybe 1985. Everything off for me. Radio controls, lift my hand off the shifter, vs my Toyota: extend a finger. Hated that Honda.

nostrademons 3y ago

The studies have already been done, and touchscreens are pretty clearly less safe than buttons: https://www.themanual.com/auto/touchscreen-in-car-less-safe-than-buttons/ https://www.themanual.com/auto/touchscreen-in-car-less-safe-... https://actslaw.com/dashboard-touch-screens-safety-hazard/ https://actslaw.com/dashboard-touch-screens-safety-hazard/ https://www.ala.co.uk/connect/in-car-touchscreens-more-dangerous-than-drink-or-drug-driving https://www.ala.co.uk/connect/in-car-touchscreens-more-dange...